Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow

Previous page 1 23 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
- King Koopa
- Ex-Muslim
- Your Mom's Favorite Lover
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #30 - February 10, 2010, 09:44 AM

Communists are smelly.

Or so my Imam told me.
- panoptic
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #31 - February 10, 2010, 10:42 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on February 10, 2010, 09:34 AM
Support for that assertion? Isn't it more likely, or at least just as likely, that slavery came from racism?

http://www.understandingrace.org/history/society/invention_of_race.html

If you want to go into more detail, get a taste for this book etc. http://clogic.eserver.org/1-2/allen.html

It's quite a well-acknowledged truism tbh...

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- ras111
- Devout Roman Alcoholic
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #32 - February 10, 2010, 11:35 AM

Quote from: panoptic on February 10, 2010, 05:18 AM

Racism came from slavery

Absolute bollocks. Racism has far more to do with our tribalistic nature as human beings. Slavery was not necessarily done out of racism either. But as always you are welcome to keep adhering to your 20th century religion.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

One very horny Turk I met on the net.
- panoptic
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #33 - February 10, 2010, 11:41 AM

20th century religion? Better than ignorance rooted in nothing else but reactionary myths, such as you've displayed in that post. Hmm...

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- panoptic
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #34 - February 10, 2010, 11:46 AM

Actually, your post is parroting what European racists came out with in the 19th century. Same thing though.

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- ras111
- Devout Roman Alcoholic
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #35 - February 10, 2010, 12:10 PM

Quote from: panoptic on February 10, 2010, 11:41 AM
20th century religion? Better than ignorance rooted in nothing else but reactionary myths, such as you've displayed in that post. Hmm...

Reactionary myths?! Oh no, it is quite clear that you know nothing about genetics and DNA. What you were describing over there had to do with phenotypes which have little to do with what makes us different. Phenotypes (such as the colour of your skin and eyes) are nothing more then the observable effects due to the environment and nowadays have more to do with the tastes of your parents, they can be changed within generations, which is nothing in evolutionary terms. There are things that cannot be changed or overridden by artificial concepts such as economical 'classes'.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

One very horny Turk I met on the net.
- ras111
- Devout Roman Alcoholic
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #36 - February 10, 2010, 12:18 PM

Stick to 20th century politics and economical history Panoptic.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

One very horny Turk I met on the net.
- panoptic
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #37 - February 10, 2010, 12:19 PM

Quote from: ras111 on February 10, 2010, 12:10 PM
Reactionary myths?! Oh no, it is quite clear that you know nothing about genetics and DNA. What you were describing over there had to do with phenotypes which have little to do with what makes us different. Phenotypes (such as the colour of your skin and eyes) are nothing more then the observable effects due to the environment and nowadays have more to do with the tastes of your parents, they can be changed within generations, which is nothing in evolutionary terms. There are things that cannot be changed or overridden by artificial concepts such as economical 'classes'.

The above is nothing in the way of demonstrating the absolute falsity of what you said in your former post.

Class is a description of observable divisions of labour in society.

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- panoptic
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #38 - February 10, 2010, 12:19 PM

Quote from: ras111 on February 10, 2010, 12:18 PM
Stick to 20th century politics and economical history Panoptic.

Stick to 19th century hackneyed proto-nazi bullshit.

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- ras111
- Devout Roman Alcoholic
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #39 - February 10, 2010, 12:41 PM

Quote from: panoptic on February 10, 2010, 12:19 PM
The above is nothing in the way of demonstrating the absolute falsity of what you said in your former post.

Class is a description of observable divisions of labour in society.

You only have to look at the society you live in to see how there communities composed of people who all stick to others like them. It is only natural. A male is going to feel a greater affinity towards someone who has a similar Y chromosome and other genetic characteristics as well as a similar culture, for instance. Everyone does it. There is nothing racist or Nazi about that, it is simply the way we are. From an evolutionary viewpoint, our purpose is to pass on on our genes and traits, that is why as a species we have developed characteristics like altruism and ethnic loyalty, because it helps us achieve this more easily, as inconvenient to you as this might seem.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

One very horny Turk I met on the net.
- ras111
- Devout Roman Alcoholic
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #40 - February 10, 2010, 12:43 PM

Quote from: panoptic on February 10, 2010, 12:19 PM
Stick to 19th century hackneyed proto-nazi bullshit.

Ahh the Nazi label... How predictable. You do realise that what I am talking about has little do with your misguided concepts of 'race', don't you?

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

One very horny Turk I met on the net.
- panoptic
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #41 - February 10, 2010, 12:52 PM

Quote from: ras111 on February 10, 2010, 12:41 PM
You only have to look at the society you live in to see how there communities composed of people who all stick to others like them. It is only natural.

Even if that were true (it's not) it's still not the same as your erroneous objection to what I said, which is still a historical fact, of which I have cited actual subject matter, whatever you have to say about it.

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- panoptic
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #42 - February 10, 2010, 12:53 PM

Quote from: ras111 on February 10, 2010, 12:43 PM
Ahh the Nazi label... How predictable. You do realise that what I am talking about has little do with your misguided concepts of 'race', don't you?

Yes, it is because you are naturalizing (justifying) the concept, if it's not about race then you should have expressed no objection to what I said.

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- ras111
- Devout Roman Alcoholic
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #43 - February 10, 2010, 12:56 PM

Quote from: panoptic on February 10, 2010, 12:52 PM
Even if that were true (it's not) it's still not the same as your erroneous objection to what I said, which is still a historical fact, of which I have cited actual subject matter, whatever you have to say about it.

Its not an erroneous objection. Apparently you seem to have the impression that our social divisions are all due to class and economics and completely overlooking the fact that there is far more that divides us

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

One very horny Turk I met on the net.
- ras111
- Devout Roman Alcoholic
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #44 - February 10, 2010, 12:58 PM

Quote from: panoptic on February 10, 2010, 12:53 PM
Yes, it is because you are naturalizing (justifying) the concept, if it's not about race then you should have expressed no objection to what I said.

What you have not understood is that your perceptions of 'race' are incorrect. You are referring to old, outdated perceptions thought up by people who did not know about DNA. Again, phenotypes such as skin colour have little to with what I am talking about.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

One very horny Turk I met on the net.
- panoptic
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #45 - February 10, 2010, 01:01 PM

Quote from: ras111 on February 10, 2010, 12:56 PM
Its not an erroneous objection. Apparently you seem to have the impression that our social divisions are all due to class and economics and completely overlooking the fact that there is far more that divides us

Don't pretend that's what your objection was - you said something a bit more precise, and categorically wrong.

Also, I've covered those other divides too.

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- panoptic
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #46 - February 10, 2010, 01:03 PM

Quote from: ras111 on February 10, 2010, 12:58 PM
What you have not understood is that your perceptions of 'race' are incorrect. You are referring to old, outdated perceptions thought up by people who did not know about DNA. Again, phenotypes such as skin colour have little to with what I am talking about.

Which is irrelevant seeing as 'race', for all intents and purposes, is a social construct.

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- ras111
- Devout Roman Alcoholic
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #47 - February 10, 2010, 01:06 PM

Quote from: panoptic on February 10, 2010, 01:01 PM
Don't pretend that's what your objection was - you said something a bit more precise, and categorically wrong.

Also, I've covered those other divides too.

What did I say? That we are tribal as a species? Yes I know that, we have spent most of our history as a species as hunter gatherers and we still haven't changed. We have only settled down 'recently' compared to the time period we spend as hunter gatherers.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

One very horny Turk I met on the net.
- ras111
- Devout Roman Alcoholic
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #48 - February 10, 2010, 01:10 PM

Quote from: panoptic on February 10, 2010, 01:03 PM
Which is irrelevant seeing as 'race', for all intents and purposes, is a social construct.

Irrelevant (and inconvenient) to you perhaps but not to everyday people out there. Race is terms of 'Black' 'White' is a social construct, genetic lineages, similarities and heritage are not.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

One very horny Turk I met on the net.
- Colonel Q-Daffi
- White Trash Sand Wigga
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #49 - February 10, 2010, 01:10 PM

Ras, there is a difference between racial prejudice and institutional racism as a social and economic system. There is ample evidence that the latter is largely influenced by class and economic exploitation.

For instance, in colonial Southern America, there were no racial segregation laws or laws prohibiting teaching Black people until Bacon's Rebellion, when slaves and white indentured servants rose up together-- after that, White landholders were determined to never let that happen again and set up a legal and social system to prevent poor Whites ever getting on with Black slaves again. Jim Crow after the Civil War was also arguably a system grounded in economic exploitation, and Apartheid in South Africa even more so. And it's hard to deny that racial tensions are worst amongst different races or ethnicities that are competing over the same scarce resources/jobs, and that such competition and racial strife has not been exploited, and in some cases even encouraged, by employers and other members of the ruling class.

So while it may be true that racism would exist independent of class and economic conditions, it seems pretty obvious that it is exacerbated by class and economic conditions, and that many institutional forms of racism would not exist without an economic or class power interest being involved.

fuck you
- panoptic
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #50 - February 10, 2010, 01:14 PM

Quote from: ras111 on February 10, 2010, 01:06 PM
What did I say? That we are tribal as a species? Yes I know that, we have spent most of our history as a species as hunter gatherer and we still haven't changed. We have only settled down 'recently' compared to the time period we spend as hunter gatherers.

But we have: we don't live in tribes, we don't rely on hunting and gathering etc..

Although in biological terms we may not have changed substantially, even in the past 50,000 or so years, we are obviously sufficiently plastic to live many different kinds of life.

Why would being tribal mean being reflexively xenophobic anyway? Preferring living in smaller intimate groups doesn't justify entire wars, for example.

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- panoptic
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #51 - February 10, 2010, 01:15 PM

Quote from: ras111 on February 10, 2010, 01:10 PM
Irrelevant (and inconvenient) to you perhaps but not to everyday people out there. Race is terms of 'Black' 'White' is a social construct, genetic lineages, similarities and heritage are not.

Which is immaterial to the question of how ideological racism came about.

Also, race in any properly scientific sense (biologists tend to reject it) is supposed to be a more specific idea.

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
- ras111
- Devout Roman Alcoholic
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #52 - February 10, 2010, 01:20 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on February 10, 2010, 01:10 PM
Ras, there is a difference between racial prejudice and institutional racism as a social and economic system. There is ample evidence that the latter is largely influenced by class and economic exploitation.

But the fact is a little 'natural prejudice' was already there. I would agree with that when the Europeans started enslaving Africans the effects were amplified and it became institutionalized racism.

Quote from: Q-Man on February 10, 2010, 01:10 PM
For instance, in colonial Southern America, there were no racial segregation laws or laws prohibiting teaching Black people until Bacon's Rebellion, when slaves and white indentured servants rose up together-- after that, White landholders were determined to never let that happen again and set up a legal and social system to prevent poor Whites ever getting on with Black slaves again.

There is nothing odd about different people interacting beneficially together when both face an immediate danger, in this case, the rich White landowners.

Quote from: Q-Man on February 10, 2010, 01:10 PM
So while it may be true that racism would exist independent of class and economic conditions, it seems pretty obvious that it is exacerbated by class and economic conditions, and that many institutional forms of racism would not exist without an economic or class power interest being involved.

I never denied that things likes like economics could amplify those sentiments, my point is that they are amplifying things that are already there. Again let me remind to that these differences have little to do with the colour of one's skin

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

One very horny Turk I met on the net.
- ras111
- Devout Roman Alcoholic
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #53 - February 10, 2010, 01:28 PM

Quote from: panoptic on February 10, 2010, 01:14 PM
But we have: we don't live in tribes, we don't rely on hunting and gathering etc..

Yes but in evolutionary terms, our transition was fairly recent. In fact our bodies are still far from being completely suited for our current lifestyles.

Quote from: panoptic on February 10, 2010, 01:14 PM
Although in biological terms we may not have changed substantially, even in the past 50,000 or so years, we are obviously sufficiently plastic to live many different kinds of life.

At a great cost to the health of millions. Evolution and speciation take place very slowly

Quote from: panoptic on February 10, 2010, 01:14 PM
Why would being tribal mean being reflexively xenophobic anyway? Preferring living in smaller intimate groups doesn't justify entire wars, for example.

Simple, if the other man can prevent you from passing on your genes in any way then he is a threat. Being naturally disposed to feel no affinity towards him will be advantageous for you to overcome him. Being xenophobic is especially advantageous if your tribe is competing with another different tribe in an environment where resources are limited. Ethnic loyalty is a mere extension of family loyalty.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

One very horny Turk I met on the net.
- ras111
- Devout Roman Alcoholic
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #54 - February 10, 2010, 01:30 PM

Quote from: panoptic on February 10, 2010, 01:15 PM
Which is immaterial to the question of how ideological racism came about.

Also, race in any properly scientific sense (biologists tend to reject it) is supposed to be a more specific idea.

My view is that ideological racism is a social and deliberate amplification of something that is already there.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

One very horny Turk I met on the net.
- Iblis
- Ex-Muslim
- betta rekognize
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #55 - February 10, 2010, 04:00 PM

Quote from: panoptic on February 10, 2010, 09:41 AM
Well, there's a good argument they were resource wars. Land hunger caused by population growth, greedy knights, and barons, with the desire to cut into oriental trade. The Asiatic was the dominant mode, Europe was the periphery at the time.

Rubbish. That was a trap, because I knew you'd probably make those old arguments about the Crusades. Pretty much most of credible scholarship on the Crusades have concluded that the assertion that the Crusades had any other reason other than religion is unfounded. A vast majority of those who participated in the Crusades were doing it for purely pious purposes - along with all those greedy barons and knights. They mostly bankrupted themselves in the process and found only ruin and shitty real estate in the Levant.

Crusades are a great example of people doing things purely for religious and spiritual purposes totally devoid of material gains. There is hardly any evidence of land or riches being the motivating factor for the Crusaders at all. Read up on the latest works on the Crusades if you want to explpre this issue.

Anyways, my point is not one about the crusades, but the nonsense religion of Communism you adhere to. Just like the religious you have a predetermined start point that all human events are somehow an extension or rooted in a class war and you then try to shape existing facts to prove that religious belief. It's an irrational route of thinking. A vast majority of human conflict, struggle and violence have probably little to do with class.

Communism failed and it's a discredited ideology. Leave that shit in the dustbin of history where it belongs, bro.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
- Iraqi Atheist
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #56 - February 10, 2010, 06:01 PM

Quote from: panoptic
But why are they above and beyond class divisions? How does that stand up to scrutiny considering the history of those divides and how they've corresponded very closely to class interests?

There's no doubt in my mind that those divides combined overshadow the economic divide in many societies.

Quote from: ras111
Race is terms of 'Black' 'White' is a social construct, genetic lineages, similarities and heritage are not.

Quote from: ras111
I never denied that things likes like economics could amplify those sentiments, my point is that they are amplifying things that are already there. Again let me remind to that these differences have little to do with the colour of one's skin

I concur.

Quote from: ras111
Ethnic loyalty is a mere extension of family loyalty.

Good point.

Quote from: Iblis
Anyways, my point is not one about the crusades, but the nonsense religion of Communism you adhere to. Just like the religious you have a predetermined start point that all human events are somehow an extension or rooted in a class war and you then try to shape existing facts to prove that religious belief.

Quote from: Iblis
A vast majority of human conflict, struggle and violence have probably little to do with class.

I wouldn't go as far as "little" but yeah the idea that class is the root of all struggles and wars is far-fetched to say the least.
- Iblis
- Ex-Muslim
- betta rekognize
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #57 - February 10, 2010, 06:04 PM

We can argue all day about how much class conflict is present in human struggles, but obviously the communist assertion that it underlies the mechanics of a majority of them is bullshit. It shows total historical ignorance if nothing else. Class is an important part no doubt, but one among many factors.

Real life is complex.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #58 - February 10, 2010, 07:11 PM

Quote from: panoptic on February 10, 2010, 10:42 AM

http://www.understandingrace.org/history/society/invention_of_race.html

If you want to go into more detail, get a taste for this book etc. http://clogic.eserver.org/1-2/allen.html

It's quite a well-acknowledged truism tbh...

Umm, mate, you must be joking. There was racism long before the Europeans got involved in shipping Africans across the Atlantic. "Well-acknowledged truism" my arse.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Re: Iran to enrich uranium to 20% as nuclear fears grow
Reply #59 - February 10, 2010, 07:12 PM

Quote from: Iblis on February 10, 2010, 06:04 PM
We can argue all day about how much class conflict is present in human struggles, but obviously the communist assertion that it underlies the mechanics of a majority of them is bullshit. It shows total historical ignorance if nothing else. Class is an important part no doubt, but one among many factors.

Real life is complex.

Not for communists it isn't.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
Previous page 1 23 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »