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Theme Changer

 Topic: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not

 (Read 4498 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     OP - February 10, 2010, 10:55 AM
    Much of the world knows Petra, the ancient ruin in modern-day Jordan that is celebrated in poetry as "the rose-red city, 'half as old as time,'" and which provided the climactic backdrop for "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade."
    Click here to find out more!

    But far fewer know Madain Saleh, a similarly spectacular treasure built by the same civilization, the Nabateans.

    That's because it's in Saudi Arabia, where conservatives are deeply hostile to pagan, Jewish and Christian sites that predate the founding of Islam in the 7th century.

    But now, in a quiet but notable change of course, the kingdom has opened up an archaeology boom by allowing Saudi and foreign archaeologists to explore cities and trade routes long lost in the desert.

    The sensitivities run deep. Archaeologists are cautioned not to talk about pre-Islamic finds outside scholarly literature. Few ancient treasures are on display, and no Christian or Jewish relics. A 4th or 5th century church in eastern Saudi Arabia has been fenced off ever since its accidental discovery 20 years ago and its exact whereabouts kept secret.

    In the eyes of conservatives, the land where Islam was founded and the Prophet Muhammad was born must remain purely Muslim. Saudi Arabia bans public displays of crosses and churches, and whenever non-Islamic artifacts are excavated, the news must be kept low-key lest hard-liners destroy the finds.

    "They should be left in the ground," said Sheikh Mohammed al-Nujaimi, a well-known cleric, reflecting the views of many religious leaders. "Any ruins belonging to non-Muslims should not be touched. Leave them in place, the way they have been for thousands of years."

    In an interview, he said Christians and Jews might claim discoveries of relics, and that Muslims would be angered if ancient symbols of other religions went on show. "How can crosses be displayed when Islam doesn't recognize that Christ was crucified?" said al-Nujaimi. "If we display them, it's as if we recognize the crucifixion."

    More:

    http://www.usnews.com/science/articles/2009/08/31/digging-up-the-saudi-past-some-would-rather-not.html
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #1 - February 10, 2010, 11:26 AM
    And this is why the ulama are so narrow and stupid.   By learning about the past we can learn from mistakes made by our ancestors but by hiding the past and trying to cover it up they are only doing themselves a disservice.
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #2 - February 10, 2010, 11:44 AM
    They're afraid of the truth. Which is funny because how does the past change the present really? Silly people.
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #3 - February 10, 2010, 12:04 PM

    Saudi Arabia, and Islam, are scaredy cats.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #4 - February 10, 2010, 12:24 PM
    Not too afraid to behead the occasional infidel though.
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #5 - February 10, 2010, 07:31 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on February 10, 2010, 11:44 AM
    They're afraid of the truth. Which is funny because how does the past change the present really? Silly people.

    Yes but the point is that they are scared that knowledge of the past will  change the present. Knowledge is powerful stuff. Why do you think the Yemenis have been so shy about letting the Sana (sp?) fragments of old Qurans be freely examined? The old fragments are known to contain differences compared to modern Qurans and this would dispel the myth of perfect preservation of Allah's word. Even if the differences aren't massive, wider knowledge of them might be enough to get people thinking. Religious fundamentalists don't like people thinking. It tends to bugger the monopoly.

    Also, in the case of archaeology in KSA the rulers want everyone to believe in the glory of Islam. Complete knowledge of history wouldn't be good for this, because until very recently Islam in KSA wasn't all that glorious due to lack of money. Having something like Madain Saleh on display, if it is anywhere near as spectacular as Petra, would make Islam's achievements in KSA before the 20th century look trivial.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #6 - February 10, 2010, 07:36 PM
    ^^ What Os said.  Knowing about the past is dangerous for a religion that relies on the lack of knowledge of the past, to continue forward.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #7 - February 10, 2010, 09:13 PM
    Well it's happening, change is about to happen. Clerics better brace themselves for a shitstorm. Odin has diarrhea because of some bad falafel.
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #8 - February 10, 2010, 11:37 PM
    Lol they need to take the Rock from Kabaa and give it to some university for material analysis. it is probably some asteroid that fell and who ever saw it fall started some myth about it being from "heaven" as it fell from the "heavens". I would love to see the day when some professor tells the ummah that its just space rock. Those idiots wanting to kiss it during Hajj will just feel moronic.  Cheesy
    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #9 - February 10, 2010, 11:48 PM
    Just look at what pre-christian historical scholarship did to Christianity. Every kid nowadays knows the pagan roots of Christmas and that Jesus was among many crazy prophets roaming about at that time.

    Archeological research in the deserts of Arabia is undoubtely the skeletons in the closet of Islam. What if they found some crazy cool temple with some crazy pagan inscriptions.. and they translated it and found it was exactly like a surah in the quran.. only predating it by thousands of years???

    Can't allow that! Islam must be pure!
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #10 - February 10, 2010, 11:51 PM
    Quote from: canex on February 10, 2010, 11:37 PM
    Lol they need to take the Rock from Kabaa and give it to some university for material analysis. it is probably some asteroid that fell and who ever saw it fall started some myth about it being from "heaven" as it fell from the "heavens". I would love to see the day when some professor tells the ummah that its just space rock. Those idiots wanting to kiss it during Hajj will just feel moronic.  Cheesy

    It does appear that this is the case - the pre-Islamic Arabs worshiped the various stars and heavenly bodies. Anything which fell from the heavens was especially prized - hence veneration of meteorites etc.
    This has been suggested as the meaning of the 3 times quickly and 4 times slowly trek around the Kaaba - it mirrors the paths of the 7 ancient know planets around the heavens (3 inner and 4 outer planets).
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #11 - February 10, 2010, 11:59 PM
    damn son !! Didnt know that. you got a source or something for that i wanna look into it a bit more often?

    thx
    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #12 - February 11, 2010, 12:11 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 10, 2010, 07:31 PM
    Yes but the point is that they are scared that knowledge of the past will  change the present. Knowledge is powerful stuff. Why do you think the Yemenis have been so shy about letting the Sana (sp?) fragments of old Qurans be freely examined? The old fragments are known to contain differences compared to modern Qurans and this would dispel the myth of perfect preservation of Allah's word. Even if the differences aren't massive, wider knowledge of them might be enough to get people thinking. Religious fundamentalists don't like people thinking. It tends to bugger the monopoly.

    Also, in the case of archaeology in KSA the rulers want everyone to believe in the glory of Islam. Complete knowledge of history wouldn't be good for this, because until very recently Islam in KSA wasn't all that glorious due to lack of money. Having something like Madain Saleh on display, if it is anywhere near as spectacular as Petra, would make Islam's achievements in KSA before the 20th century look trivial.


    Brilliant post mate. The neurosis of Islam is about all that is not Islamic - in the present, in the future, and in the past, especially in the heart of Islam, Saudi Arabia.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #13 - February 11, 2010, 07:17 AM
    It's funny how one of the most opressive countries in the world is the birthplace of Mohammed.

    funny as in a quick ha-ha and follwed tout de suit by a face palm
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #14 - February 11, 2010, 08:28 AM
    Turns out there is actually quite a bit about Madain Saleh on the net. Interesting site. It is very similar to Petra.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mada%27in_Saleh

    http://www.zubeyr-kureemun.com/SaudiArabia/MadainSaleh.htm

    http://madainsaleh.net/index.aspx

    And Firefox image search results
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #15 - February 11, 2010, 08:45 AM
    Petra? Is there Pagan stuff at Petra and Madain Saleh?
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #16 - February 11, 2010, 08:55 AM
    Er, yeah. I mean they were pagans hey.  Tongue  They were built by the Nabateans (the Quran gets that wrong, of course) well before Mohammed was even thought of.

    Really good article on Petra here: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/petra.html

    Quote
    Greeks in the decades after Alexander the Great's death in 323 B.C. complained about Nabateans plundering ships and camel caravans. Scholars believe that such raids whetted the Nabateans' appetite for wealth. Eventually, instead of attacking caravans, the raiders began guarding them?for a price. By the second century B.C., Nabateans dominated the incense trade from southern Arabia. Within several decades, they had assembled a mercantile empire stretching for hundreds of miles. The people who a few generations earlier had been nomads were now producing eggshell-thin pottery, among the finest in the ancient world, as well as grand architecture.

    By 100 B.C., the tribe had a king, vast wealth and a rapidly expanding capital city. Camels lumbered into Petra with boxes of frankincense and myrrh from Oman, sacks of spices from India and bolts of cloth from Syria. Such wealth would have attracted raiders, but Petra's mountains and high walls protected the traders once they arrived in the city. The Siq, a twisting 1,000-yard-long canyon that in places is just wide enough for two camels to pass, made the eastern part of the city impregnable. Today it serves as Petra's main entryway. It may be the most dramatic entrance to an urban space ever devised. In ancient times, though, the primary entrance into Petra was likely the road by which I came by donkey.

    Writing early in the first century A.D., the Greek historian Strabo reported that while foreigners in Petra are "frequently engaged in litigation," the locals "had never any dispute among themselves, and lived together in perfect harmony." Dubious as that may sound, we do know that the Nabateans were unusual in the ancient world for their abhorrence of slavery, for the prominent role women played in political life and for an egalitarian approach to governing. Joukowsky suggests that the large theater in the Great Temple that she partially restored may have been used for council meetings accommodating hundreds of citizens.

     

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #17 - February 11, 2010, 08:59 AM
    Quote from: canex on February 10, 2010, 11:59 PM
    damn son !! Didnt know that. you got a source or something for that i wanna look into it a bit more often?

    thx

    Ibn Warraq's why I'm not a Muslim is a good place to start. 
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #18 - February 11, 2010, 09:06 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 11, 2010, 08:55 AM
    Er, yeah. I mean they were pagans hey.  Tongue  They were built by the Nabateans (the Quran gets that wrong, of course) well before Mohammed was even thought of.

    l[/url]

     

     




    Cool thanks. Do you remember what the Quran said? Verse perhaps?
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #19 - February 11, 2010, 09:19 AM
    You'd have to look through the Quran. Probably someone like Hass would know the verses by memory. This is all Wiki says:

    Quote
    Accounts from the Qur?an

    According to the Qur?an, by the 3rd millennium BCE, the site of Mada'in Saleh has already been settled by the tribe of Thamud. It is said that the tribe fell to idol worshipping; tyranny and oppression became prevalent. The Prophet Saleh, to whom the site's name of Mada'in Saleh is often attributed, called the Thamudis to repent. A pregnant she-camel was sent to the people by Allah, as proof of Saleh's divine mission. However, only a minority heeded his words. The non-believers conspired to kill the sacred camel and the prophet, but were punished by Allah?their souls leaving their lifeless bodies in the midst of an earthquake and lightning blasts.


    Note that the timeline is out by around three thousand years (minor error there, Allah old mate) and the name is wrong too (they were Nabateans).
    I also fail to see why anyone living in the area at that time would regard a pregnant camel as a sign from god.  Roll Eyes
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #20 - February 11, 2010, 09:21 AM
    Hey, mary's pregnancy was a sign from god too, maybe he visited the she camel in the same way he visited mary?  Cheesy
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #21 - February 11, 2010, 09:22 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 11, 2010, 09:19 AM
    You'd have to look through the Quran. Probably someone like Hass would know the verses by memory. This is all Wiki says:

    Note that the timeline is out by around three thousand years (minor error there, Allah old mate) and the name is wrong too (they were Nabateans).
    I also fail to see why anyone living in the area at that time would regard a pregnant camel as a sign from god.  Roll Eyes


    He was projecting. A great civalization, really getting worked up by a giant she-camel? Don't think so.

    Sort of like people of NYC getting worked up over a giant Humvee. Now a giant Burrito I would consider that a miracle. Especially if it's a never ending burrito. Damn I'm hungry.
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #22 - February 11, 2010, 09:22 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on February 11, 2010, 09:21 AM
    Hey, mary's pregnancy was a sign from god too, maybe he visited the she camel in the same way he visited mary?  Cheesy


    LOL

    JOTM
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #23 - February 11, 2010, 09:30 AM
    You can just imagine some wanker claiming to be a prophet and when asked for evidence he says "Look! That camel over there is up the duff!" I mean that's really going to impress the punters.  Afro
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Digging Up the Saudi Past: Some Would Rather Not
     Reply #24 - February 11, 2010, 09:31 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 11, 2010, 09:30 AM
    You can just imagine some wanker claiming to be a prophet and when asked for evidence he says "Look! That camel over there is up the duff!" I mean that's really going to impress the punters.  Afro


    I think the she-camel was a giant. I mean HUGE. Also, no camel entered her. It was a miraclous birth. I might be wrong about that though.
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