FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]

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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #390 - February 21, 2010, 09:42 AM

Quote from: BlackDog on February 21, 2010, 09:28 AM
You know if I was a member at FFI and still a muslim, I would remain a muslim. Out of spite. I have never been to a university where a professor starts degrading me or a group of people. There is a way of criticizing a religion (Islam in this case) with out insulting its adherents

I agree BD.

I know Berbs and a few others say it helped them tremendously. But I suspect that is because there simply was nowhere else to go to hear some home truth on Islam. (And yes Ali and FFI have made many excellent points about Islam and said things that up to that point were not being said openly).

But I personally believe it actually delayed my leaving Islam for the very reason you said.

I went on there in 2002 and I was actually ready to leave Islam. I had so many doubts and questions. But I hated some of the hateful, vicious and ignorant comments I saw from people whose understanding of Muslims was mostly from the internet or tabloids. I actually clung on to Islam for another 5 years and I believe it was in part due to the disgust and anger I felt at some of rabid bigotry I saw on FFI.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #391 - February 21, 2010, 09:47 AM

@Sky, and all those at FFI who agree with his and Ansars criticism of our methods of trying not to unnecessarily insult Muslims.

As I said I hope NONE of you ever recommends my video or blogs (where I use this much hated methodology) to show to Muslims - that would be the height of hypocrisy - wouldn't you say?
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #392 - February 21, 2010, 10:02 AM

Quote from: BlackDog on February 21, 2010, 09:28 AM
You know if I was a member at FFI and still a muslim, I would remain a muslim. Out of spite. I have never been to a university where a professor starts degrading me or a group of people. There is a way of criticizing a religion (Islam in this case) with out insulting its adherents.

I honestly think that the FFI forum is doing more harm than good. But different strokes for different folks. What I don't understand is why we are wasting our time in this thread.

What have we gained from any of this? What good is this thread for a muslim or a person of another religion? I am sure there is a lot I can learn from FFI members, but I have not learned it here.

I say forget this thread join us in the forum and share your knowledge and wisdom with us regarding subjects that can be backed up with educated opinions. Not who said what and who did what.

That was what my intention was when I started discussion with Islame . I said I dont want any debates and I just want to discuss like friends but then this thread totally took a U turn.Islame was talking about building bridges and not hate and thats why I agreed to participate.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #393 - February 21, 2010, 10:04 AM

Quote from: skynightblaze on February 21, 2010, 10:02 AM
That was what my intention was when I started discussion with Islame . I said I dont want any debates and I just want to discuss like friends but then this thread totally took a U turn.Islame was talking about building bridges and not hate and thats why I agreed to participate.

OK. Then I agree with your intentions
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #394 - February 21, 2010, 10:06 AM

Quote from: Hassan on February 21, 2010, 09:47 AM
@Sky, and all those at FFI who agree with his and Ansars criticism of our methods of trying not to unnecessarily insult Muslims.

As I said I hope NONE of you ever recommends my video or blogs (where I use this much hated methodology) to show to Muslims - that would be the height of hypocrisy - wouldn't you say?

I keep personal differences in opinion and fight against islam as seperate.I neither mix them with CEMB or FFI.I had said this to Islame on FFI that I was willing to contribute for his videos against islam.WE would still refer your videos of blogs to muslims irrespective of your approach. Whatever is valid is valid and cannot be discredited just because of some difference of opinions.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #395 - February 21, 2010, 10:19 AM

Quote from: skynightblaze on February 21, 2010, 10:06 AM
I keep personal differences in opinion and fight against islam as seperate.I neither mix them with CEMB or FFI.I had said this to Islame on FFI that I was willing to contribute for his videos against islam.WE would still refer your videos of blogs to muslims irrespective of your approach. Whatever is valid is valid and cannot be discredited just because of some difference of opinions.

Are you saying you don't mind pouring scorn on my methods - yet are quite happy to use what I do at the same time?

And you don't think that's hypocrisy?
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #396 - February 21, 2010, 10:24 AM

@Hassan

I dont think thats hypocrisy because I have to credit the good things that you do.I support your arguments against islam but not your stance. You may use whatever stance you want. I prefer a direct approach. My criticism on you and the forum CEMB was they protect muslims when they deserve blame.This also no way means you should blame muslims when they dont deserve it.

YOur stance "I am not a muslim but I aint against islam is " is undesirable . You can use soft approach towards muslims but atleast be harsh on islam.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #397 - February 21, 2010, 10:33 AM

skynightblaze you have never been a muslim, don't have Muslim family (and maybe friends). Don't have your face out there, with your name and your bio and you want him to say I am against Islam? lol I would love to see how many FFI:s would have the guts to do so, being ex-muslim means having the risk of some psycho extremist cutting off your head as well.

It's obvious what he is implying, if he says I am against Islam it would make people defensive. He is obviously implicitly saying he is against Islam since he is explicitly criticizing it.

Put yourself in the man shoes.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #398 - February 21, 2010, 10:37 AM

@ BD

Hassan IS obviously against Islam.. except he calmly criticizes it with the need to be snarly about it.

This has nothing to do with showing his face on videos.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #399 - February 21, 2010, 11:03 AM

Quote from: BlackDog on February 21, 2010, 09:28 AM
You know if I was a member at FFI and still a muslim, I would remain a muslim. Out of spite. I have never been to a university where a professor starts degrading me or a group of people. There is a way of criticizing a religion (Islam in this case) with out insulting its adherents.

Its only understandable, its what victimised communities do. Jews now even include atheist Jews amongst themselves.

Victims turn to each other in times of oppression. It seems the bullied are now becoming the bullies. But they are not bullying the actual bullies, but sidekicks of the bullies, those "who were simply following orders".

Rather than attempting to empathise with their plight, this strategy can only make these muslims close ranks even further, its sad because people like debunker have often been living on the fringes of their communities up until this point anyway. Muslims have turned away from FFI in disgust and got the impression that those against Islam are truly satanic, as the quran correctly forewarned them.

Nice work - you would probably do a better job masquerading as Muslims

Many of us here are exmuslims, we know what arguments would or would not work. Ask yourselves, if you were ex-hindus or ex-christians or ex-anything, would pure xenophbic hatred have helped you leave your religions any quicker or delayed the process.

As exmuslims, Hassan, I & BlackDog are telling you, your strategy is not the best one and I hope you bear it some consideration. Particularly your moderators, who effectively control the tone & culture of your site, a role that should be taken very seriously indeed.

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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #400 - February 21, 2010, 11:11 AM

Quote from: Hassan on February 21, 2010, 09:47 AM
@Sky, and all those at FFI who agree with his and Ansars criticism of our methods of trying not to unnecessarily insult Muslims.

As I said I hope NONE of you ever recommends my video or blogs (where I use this much hated methodology) to show to Muslims - that would be the height of hypocrisy - wouldn't you say?

I think you would agree that Ali Sina has written many fine articles on Islam. I also think that COEM members, including yourself, generally don't have very high regards for him, and disagree with many things he says/has said.

Would you, Hassan, recommend one of his articles to a Muslim?

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #401 - February 21, 2010, 11:14 AM

Quote from: debunker on February 21, 2010, 10:37 AM
Hassan IS obviously against Islam...

So far you have expressed the opinion that members of this forum are in general against Islam in various posts of yours.
Personally I don't think it’s quite that simple. Islam essentially is what Muslims make out of it.
As far as I am concerned I particularly dislike a specific Islam anchored in materialism which is supremacist and intellectually insulting but unfortunately is shared among lots of Muslims.
Have you read posts made by The Tailor? He is a Muslim and I have nothing but deepest respect for his position: "If you like, my job as a hyper-Salafi Tailor is to hem the garment of the Salafis (and the wider ummah), which currently trails way behind them (in subscribing to all kinds of materialist dogma)."
Besides how could I not respect somebody who can (in a sensical way) relate Baudrillard, Lacan or Zizek to his religion.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #402 - February 21, 2010, 11:27 AM

Quote from: charlesmartel on February 21, 2010, 11:11 AM
I think you would agree that Ali Sina has written many fine articles on Islam. I also think that COEM members, including yourself, generally don't have very high regards for him, and disagree with many things he says/has said.

Would you, Hassan, recommend one of his articles to a Muslim?

If I were to answer the question, then I would say certainly not. I would only recommend Sina's articles to already exmuslims, never to a muslim. Instead I would choose Hassans videos as the perfert replacement

If you dont believe me, as any muslim what they found more persuasive, Hassans videos or Sina's anonymous one-sided rants.

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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #403 - February 21, 2010, 11:34 AM

Quote from: Kenan on February 21, 2010, 11:14 AM
So far you have expressed the opinion that members of this forum are in general against Islam in various posts of yours.
Personally I don't think it’s quite that simple. Islam essentially is what Muslims make out of it.
As far as I am concerned I particularly dislike a specific Islam anchored in materialism which is supremacist and intellectually insulting but unfortunately is shared among lots of Muslims.
Have you read post made by The Tailor? He is a Muslim and I have nothing but deepest respect for his position: "If you like, my job as a hyper-Salafi Tailor is to hem the garment of the Salafis (and the wider ummah), which currently trails way behind them (in subscribing to all kinds of materialist dogma)."
Besides how could I not respect somebody who can (in a sensical way) relate Baudrillard, Lacan or Zizek to his religion.

The tailor is not a tailor AT ALL in fact, he is a cook... and a very bad cook I mean imagine someone using the following ingredients: rice, meat, honey, fish, sugar, salt, olive oil, butter, bananas, chicken, pasta, mustard, ketchup, mionaise, peppers, mangos, shrimp, etc ALL to make ONE dish... it's inedible...

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #404 - February 21, 2010, 11:42 AM

Quote from: charlesmartel on February 21, 2010, 11:11 AM
I think you would agree that Ali Sina has written many fine articles on Islam. I also think that COEM members, including yourself, generally don't have very high regards for him, and disagree with many things he says/has said.

Would you, Hassan, recommend one of his articles to a Muslim?

What fine articles? He simply reiterated nasty passages in Sunni Islamic history/Hadiths... no need for his "brilliance".

It's like me quoting nasty passages from the Hebrew Bible and then claiming that I've written great articles!

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #405 - February 21, 2010, 11:47 AM

Quote from: BlackDog on February 21, 2010, 10:33 AM
skynightblaze you have never been a muslim, don't have Muslim family (and maybe friends). Don't have your face out there, with your name and your bio and you want him to say I am against Islam? lol I would love to see how many FFI:s would have the guts to do so, being ex-muslim means having the risk of some psycho extremist cutting off your head as well.

It's obvious what he is implying, if he says I am against Islam it would make people defensive. He is obviously implicitly saying he is against Islam since he is explicitly criticizing it.

Put yourself in the man shoes.

I dont understand this logic. He puts his real name here and makes videos against islam and yet claims he is not against islam. Now do you think whoever wants to behead him would read his statements here of not being against islam and ignore the videos that he makes? Well if he didnt have the audacity to face the hostility he wouldnt have used his real name while making videos. If he has the audacity then why not be completely against islam?
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #406 - February 21, 2010, 11:54 AM

@ sky

Hassan does hate Islam... HOWEVER, he is NOT against Islam in the sense that he does NOT try to destroy it (no one can, anyways)... he truly believes Muslims have the right to be Muslims... he's simply sharing his views on Islam...

It's like when someone likes to eat seaweeds and then I express my disgust at seaweed while fully recognizing the right of that person to eat seaweed... Got it?

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #407 - February 21, 2010, 11:56 AM

Quote from: Islame
Many of us here are exmuslims, we know what arguments would or would not work. Ask yourselves, if you were ex-hindus or ex-christians or ex-anything, would pure xenophbic hatred have helped you leave your religions any quicker or delayed the process.

As exmuslims, Hassan, I & BlackDog are telling you, your strategy is not the best one and I hope you bear it some consideration. Particularly your moderators, who effectively control the tone & culture of your site, a role that should be taken very seriously indeed

You could have a point .When I debate a muslim I never use offensive words unless the muslims starts using it.I am fully against islam. I dont prefer a softer approach while dealing with islam.I dont know whether this approach works or not.

Also if what you say is true then you have a great potential to make a large no of people as apostates.You guys have relatives and friends who are muslims. IF each one of you convinces atleast one of your relatives or your friends to visit this site and discuss islam it would be great. Muslims wouldnt accept invitation of non muslims but they would be willing if you guys do it but then your stance should be strong against islam.It shouldnt be like Hassan's stance. It defeats the purpose of this forum.

My only opposition is you not blaming the muslims for what they deserve.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #408 - February 21, 2010, 11:58 AM

Quote from: debunker on February 21, 2010, 11:54 AM
@ sky

Hassan does hate Islam... HOWEVER, he is NOT against Islam in the sense that he does NOT try to destroy it (no one can, anyways)... he truly believes Muslims have the right to be Muslims... he's simply sharing his views on Islam...

It's like when someone likes to eat seaweeds and then I express my disgust of seaweed while fully recognize the right of that person to eat seaweed... Got it?

I understand what you are trying to say but my point is that approach of his wont work and thats what I am trying to tell him.In your analogy what if the sea weeds are poisonous and we all know that they are poisonous? (remember we both believe that islam is a toxin) so how does this justify his stance?
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #409 - February 21, 2010, 12:02 PM

Quote
I understand what you are trying to say but my point is that approach of his wont work and thats what I am trying to tell him.In your analogy what if the sea weeds are poisonous and we all know that they are poisonous? (remember we both believe that islam is a toxin) so how does this justify his stance?

What do you mean we both believe Islam is a toxin?! Why am I a Muslim then?

Anyway, if I see someone eating something poisonous, I would NOT scream in their face and tell them: "Hey, idiot! You moron! Drop that food, you fucktard, it's fucking poisonous!"

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #410 - February 21, 2010, 12:18 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 21, 2010, 11:54 AM
@ sky

Hassan does hate Islam... HOWEVER, he is NOT against Islam in the sense that he does NOT try to destroy it (no one can, anyways)... he truly believes Muslims have the right to be Muslims... he's simply sharing his views on Islam...

It's like when someone likes to eat seaweeds and then I express my disgust at seaweed while fully recognizing the right of that person to eat seaweed... Got it?

Exactly, although I think the seaweed analogy is slightly unfair on muslims - lol.

I think its more akin to eating mushrooms during a blind test.

The muslim is convinced its an edible mushroom and points out he has eaten it and feels perfectly ok. The COEM lot are saying its toxic and pointing to its texture and taste using references, and its effect on others who ate it before.. FFI simply grab a whole load of them and force them down their throat, singing ""Kum Ba Yah"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PswUnRexlOQ

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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #411 - February 21, 2010, 12:19 PM

skynightblaze
Quote
I understand what you are trying to say but my point is that approach of his wont work and thats what I am trying to tell him.In your analogy what if the sea weeds are poisonous and we all know that they are poisonous? (remember we both believe that islam is a toxin) so how does this justify his stance?

no..No., Hassan way of approach is also useful in initial stages., the method is NOT as shocking as that of Ali., More over Hassan Speaks English far more fluently than he writes against Islam where as Ali is exactly opposite.

Hassan approach certainly puts him in less trouble (Than Ali)if he goes to Mosque and talks the way he talks in Videos at the best he may get beaten up. where as Ali's body parts will be spread across the grounds of Mosque.. So it is a different style both are useful Mr. skynightblaze.

But couple of posts of Hassan in this folder surprised me, they present as if he is acting like a jilted lover and had problem in ffi that he would like to solve but he can not..

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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #412 - February 21, 2010, 12:55 PM

Quote from: charlesmartel on February 21, 2010, 11:11 AM
Would you, Hassan, recommend one of his articles to a Muslim?

Nope, never have and never would.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #413 - February 21, 2010, 01:01 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 21, 2010, 11:54 AM
@ sky

Hassan does hate Islam... HOWEVER, he is NOT against Islam in the sense that he does NOT try to destroy it (no one can, anyways)... he truly believes Muslims have the right to be Muslims... he's simply sharing his views on Islam...

It's like when someone likes to eat seaweeds and then I express my disgust at seaweed while fully recognizing the right of that person to eat seaweed... Got it?

You are mostly correct, but I don't hate Islam. There are some aspects/interpretations that I could say I hate. But I don't hate it in general - just as I don't hate Christianity or Mormonism etc...

Unlike sky and many on FFI I also don't believe there is one single type of "true" Islam but many people's interpretations. Many of these are very benign and peaceful and I have no problem with them.

I am definitely not on a mission to eradicate Islam. I'm not really sure what motivates me to say what I do - I just feel motivated to do so and am not bothered if people leave Islam or not - but would like to see Muslims grow up and mature a bit - because I genuinely do care for them.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #414 - February 21, 2010, 01:05 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 21, 2010, 01:01 PM
You are mostly correct, but I don't hate Islam. There are some aspects/interpretations that I could say I hate. But I don't hate it in general - just as I don't hate Christianity or Mormonism etc...

Unlike sky and many on FFI I also don't believe there is one single type of "true" Islam but many people's interpretations. Many of these are very benign and peaceful and I have no problem with them.

I am definitely not on a mission to eradicate Islam. I'm not really sure what motivates me to say what I do - I just feel motivated to do so and am not bothered if people leave Islam or not - but would like to see Muslims grow up and mature a bit - because I genuinely do care for them.

you care about muslims

fucking heretic mate.. there will be no virgins for you in the heaven of Ali Sina and FFI

recant or we will have to torture you... in the comfy chair...
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #415 - February 21, 2010, 01:28 PM

Quote from: skynightblaze on February 21, 2010, 05:01 AM
Can you debate ? Try addressing post of ixolite if you can.People see you as a troll here as well as on FFI.

People see you as fascists and bigots... Your point is?

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #416 - February 21, 2010, 01:38 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on February 21, 2010, 12:19 PM
skynightblaze no..No., Hassan way of approach is also useful in initial stages., the method is NOT as shocking as that of Ali.

FFI and COEM could have naturally played the role of "Good cop bad cop". First send a Muslim to FFI, then bring him here to put salve on his wounds. That could work wonders

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #417 - February 21, 2010, 01:40 PM

Quote from: charlesmartel on February 21, 2010, 11:11 AM
I think you would agree that Ali Sina has written many fine articles on Islam. I also think that COEM members, including yourself, generally don't have very high regards for him, and disagree with many things he says/has said.

Would you, Hassan, recommend one of his articles to a Muslim?

Look I think some of Ali Sina's earlier articles were classics, some which even helped me leave Islam, or at least but doubt in my mind, but as to recommend them to Muslims no, simply Ali Sina, and FFI has zero credibility amount the Muslim population, so the validity of the articles would be questioned. Ali Sina's articles started becoming a problem when Hindus started helping him, with nasty anti-Pakistani articles, and fake Muslim girl falls in love with a Hindu articles started appearing.

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #418 - February 21, 2010, 01:47 PM

Quote from: charlesmartel on February 21, 2010, 01:38 PM
FFI and COEM could have naturally played the role of "Good cop bad cop". First send a Muslim to FFI, then bring him here to put salve on his wounds. That could work wonders

lol are you trying to steal my JOTM crown? haha
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Re: FFI vs. COEM [Split: Poster of the month!]
Reply #419 - February 21, 2010, 01:49 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 21, 2010, 12:02 PM
What do you mean we both believe Islam is a toxin?! Why am I a Muslim then?

You are addicted to the toxin

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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