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 Topic: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings

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  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     OP - February 17, 2010, 07:04 PM
    Quran 4:15 states that a "lewd" woman is to be put under house arrest till death, if she's caught committing a "lewd" act by 4 witnesses.

    This has been explained in tafsirs & in hadiths as being abrogated by latter verses which say that an unmarried woman commiting lewdness ie fornication has to be given 100 lashes, & a married adulteress stoned to death. Exactly like many other supposedly abrogated verses, this verse too still remains in the Quran.

    These are verses from the Quran:

    Quran 004.015
     
    YUSUFALI: If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

    PICKTHAL: As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).

    SHAKIR: And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.

    Obviously, these verses have some flexibility of interpretation, ie "Allah" opening some way for them," can well be interpreted by the women's judges & families as they taking over from Allah & letting the woman go, & this punishment can well be substituted by a light lashing, which would be more preferable for the woman.

    However, they can also be interpreted as locking women up, often for decades, simply for "lewdness". Lewdness btw isn't the same as adultery or fornication, its left to the families & societies to decide what constitutes lewdness & indecency, & free intermingling of sexes, having male friends etc is considered lewdness in plenty of Islamic societies with Prophet Mo himself saying in hadiths, that when a man & woman are alone together, the third person present is the Devil.

    So suppose that Turkish girl who was buried alive, had her family received sound information from 4 or more of their male friends & relatives that their daughter was friends with many boys, had they instead of burying her alive(this is condemned by Islam in no uncertain terms) locked her up in the house for the next 50 years till she died, wouldn't such an action have some Islamic sanction?

    And isn't locking up a woman whom the society considers "lewd" till she dies, honor killing on the installment?

    I think from the woman's point of view, being locked up for decades would be just as horrible as having dying a quick death via a honor killing, for the crime of lewdness.





    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #1 - February 17, 2010, 07:13 PM
    lol Ye there would obviously be a wide interpretation of what exactly constitutes lewdness but there needs to be 4 witnesses so depending on the social conditions, a girl may not be as easily punished as other places but as we all know in most Islamic countries women are more easily punished than men for such acts. Punishment is so extreme for something so trivial. According to Islamic Shariah Law only the caliphate can decide to forgive the 'crime'. Ye basically it's a lifetime house arrest sentence. I'm curious as to what this part of the verse 'or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation). ' could entail. Muslim modernists may suggest using ijtihad to abrogate such a punishment.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #2 - February 17, 2010, 07:19 PM
    Good post Rashna. And you are right, I think it was abrogated from murder.
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #3 - February 17, 2010, 07:29 PM
    Hey whats up Rashna. How's life. Long time no see. We should get together sometime and just, you know.. do whatever.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #4 - February 17, 2010, 07:30 PM
    I got dibs Iblis. I have marked her 18th birthday in my calendar. And no it's not creepy at all.


     lipsrsealed
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #5 - February 17, 2010, 07:30 PM
    lol
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #6 - February 17, 2010, 07:31 PM
    lol she's still 15 at the moment though a bit weird imo. Plus you don't know what she looks like. Anyway moving along. whistling2
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #7 - February 17, 2010, 07:33 PM
    lol
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #8 - February 17, 2010, 07:33 PM
     Cheesy You thugs are ruining this thread.  Cheesy


    I can't remember if it was in the book princess, or one of the other similar books, where she speaks of a friend of hers who is locked away in a room by her father, until she repents, and then she dies?

    Lewdness is such a broad wonderful controlling term.  I could raise my eyes and stare BD in the eyes, and it could be seen as lewd........maybe that wasn't the best example, as I would be lewd  Tongue , but the most minor of things can be seen as lewd.

    Islam really does make me sick to my stomach sometimes.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #9 - February 17, 2010, 07:34 PM
    Zoroastrian Vulture God-Man:



    You ask, why is he so angry? I say, because he has to feed on old wrinkly flesh. I would be mad as well.
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #10 - February 17, 2010, 07:34 PM
    Quote from: Heyjustlooking on February 17, 2010, 07:13 PM
    lol Ye there would obviously be a wide interpretation of what exactly constitutes lewdness but there needs to be 4 witnesses so depending on the social conditions, a girl may not be as easily punished as other places


    I think in a small town, its not very difficult to find 4 witnesses, practically everyone knows everyone else in small towns. Also, there're fewer places to visit in the small towns so wherever a woman does anything which is considered "lewd" she can be punished for it. Keep in mind that lewdness isn't only having sexual intercourse, which people will try to do in privacy, it can mean giving your boyfriend a kiss on the cheek in public too.

    So if there're just a couple of movie halls, a couple of parks etc in a small town, its not impossible to have a group of 4 people you know catching you in the act of lewdness, who will then report the "crime" to your family. Then you family can very well lock you up from that day for the next 50 years, & claim that Allah explicitly sanctions such behavior.

    Quote from: Heyjustlooking on February 17, 2010, 07:13 PM
    but as we all know in most Islamic countries women are more easily punished than men for such acts.


    True, which is why such verses need to be looked into.

    Quote from: Heyjustlooking on February 17, 2010, 07:13 PM
    Punishment is so extreme for something so trivial.


    True again, just shows how "merciful" Allah is to women, if you're 15 when you commit lewdness, you can spend the next 60-70 years,not finishing school, having no kids, grandkids,career, wasting all your youth & middle age locked up, till "merciful" Allah finally calls you to Him in old Age.  Roll Eyes

    Quote from: Heyjustlooking on February 17, 2010, 07:13 PM
    According to Islamic Shariah Law only the caliphate can decide to forgive the 'crime'. Ye basically it's a lifetime house arrest sentence.


    Since the Caliphate no longer exists, punishment stands, a quick honor killing is much less time consuming, much less bothersome for the family(you won't have to keep checking her locked room to make sure she doesn't escape! Wink ), much less expensive(no need to feed her, buy her toothpaste, medicines etc) & perhaps more merciful to the unfortunate "lewd" girl who'd quickly go to Allah rather than spend the next half century rotting in a room.

    Quote from: Heyjustlooking on February 17, 2010, 07:13 PM
    I'm curious as to what this part of the verse 'or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation). ' could entail. Muslim modernists may suggest using ijtihad to abrogate such a punishment.


    Modernists & merciful Muslim tafsir creators have suggested that such a punishment has been abrogated by commands to lash or stone.

    However, this verse does exist in the Quran(not even hadiths), it refers to "lewd" women & does give men sanction to carry out an abhorrent act.

    Notice how this verse, like many other Quranic verses, doesn't even address women, it only tell the men "your" women guilty of lewdness should be locked till death.  finmad

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #11 - February 17, 2010, 07:38 PM
    I swear like the abrahamic religions in general do not address women but they are man-made (emphasis on the man part) lol.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #12 - February 17, 2010, 07:39 PM
    @ Berbs

    What does "Fahisha" mean?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #13 - February 17, 2010, 07:41 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on February 17, 2010, 07:33 PM
    I could raise my eyes and stare BD in the eyes


    How you doin' Wink
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #14 - February 17, 2010, 07:42 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on February 17, 2010, 07:33 PM
    I can't remember if it was in the book princess, or one of the other similar books, where she speaks of a friend of hers who is locked away in a room by her father, until she repents, and then she dies?


    Yes its in the book "Princess" by Jean Sassoon, I read this type of incident there.

    Quote from: BerberElla on February 17, 2010, 07:33 PM
    Lewdness is such a broad wonderful controlling term.  I could raise my eyes and stare BD in the eyes, and it could be seen as lewd........maybe that wasn't the best example, as I would be lewd  Tongue , but the most minor of things can be seen as lewd.


    Yes it is, & the way its put in the verses & the way many Islamic societies are structed wherein intermingling between the sexes is strictly forbidden, does make it a very broad & controlling term indeed.  yes
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #15 - February 18, 2010, 10:10 AM
    That Jean Sasson book was rather entertaining. I remember that another one of her friends was drowned in the family's swimming pool  Afro
    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #16 - February 20, 2010, 12:22 PM
    Quote
    [004.015]  If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way.

    [004.016]  If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.


    Correct me if I am wrong but lewdness here implies to "Homo sexuality"? [004.016]  explains it by saying  "two men "
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #17 - February 20, 2010, 12:36 PM
    start a thread on it, rather than sticking it anywhere, after an introduction if you want to afford yourself the best chance of a decent response.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #18 - February 20, 2010, 01:04 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 20, 2010, 12:36 PM
    start a thread on it, rather than sticking it anywhere, after an introduction if you want to afford yourself the best chance of a decent response.


    I thought thread was talking about Quran 4:15 is it not?
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #19 - February 22, 2010, 12:36 AM
    Quote from: Rashna on February 17, 2010, 07:04 PM
    Quran 4:15 states that a "lewd" woman is to be put under house arrest till death, if she's caught committing a "lewd" act by 4 witnesses.

    This has been explained in tafsirs & in hadiths as being abrogated by latter verses which say that an unmarried woman commiting lewdness ie fornication has to be given 100 lashes, & a married adulteress stoned to death. Exactly like many other supposedly abrogated verses, this verse too still remains in the Quran.

    These are verses from the Quran:

    Quran 004.015
     
    YUSUFALI: If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

    PICKTHAL: As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).

    SHAKIR: And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.

    Obviously, these verses have some flexibility of interpretation, ie "Allah" opening some way for them," can well be interpreted by the women's judges & families as they taking over from Allah & letting the woman go, & this punishment can well be substituted by a light lashing, which would be more preferable for the woman.

    However, they can also be interpreted as locking women up, often for decades, simply for "lewdness". Lewdness btw isn't the same as adultery or fornication, its left to the families & societies to decide what constitutes lewdness & indecency, & free intermingling of sexes, having male friends etc is considered lewdness in plenty of Islamic societies with Prophet Mo himself saying in hadiths, that when a man & woman are alone together, the third person present is the Devil.

    So suppose that Turkish girl who was buried alive, had her family received sound information from 4 or more of their male friends & relatives that their daughter was friends with many boys, had they instead of burying her alive(this is condemned by Islam in no uncertain terms) locked her up in the house for the next 50 years till she died, wouldn't such an action have some Islamic sanction?

    And isn't locking up a woman whom the society considers "lewd" till she dies, honor killing on the installment?

    I think from the woman's point of view, being locked up for decades would be just as horrible as having dying a quick death via a honor killing, for the crime of lewdness.








    Hi

    Here is some commentary from Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs.

    "(As for those of your women) your free, married women (who are guilty of lewdness) i.e. of fornication, (call to witness) that they were caught red-handed in the act (four of you against them) four of your free men. (And if they testify) to the Truth of the allegation (then confine them to the houses) keep them in prison (until death take them) until they die in prison (or (until) Allah appoint for them a way) out by means of stoning. Imprisoning a free, married woman who commits fornication until she dies in prison was later abrogated by stoning."

    This applies to a women if she is found to be guilty of fornication. Later it was replaced with stoning to death, and if she is virgin then 100 lashes..
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #20 - February 22, 2010, 01:48 AM
    Quote
    xtr00
    Hi

    Here is some commentary from Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs.

    "(As for those of your women) your free, married women (who are guilty of lewdness) i.e. of fornication, (call to witness) that they were caught red-handed in the act (four of you against them) four of your free men. (And if they testify) to the Truth of the allegation (then confine them to the houses) keep them in prison (until death take them) until they die in prison (or (until) Allah appoint for them a way) out by means of stoning. Imprisoning a free, married woman who commits fornication until she dies in prison was later abrogated by stoning."

    This applies to a women if she is found to be guilty of fornication. Later it was replaced with stoning to death, and if she is virgin then 100 lashes..




    Quran does not say stone to death for fornication.  Only punishment is 100 lashes.

  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #21 - February 22, 2010, 01:53 AM
    Quote from: iffo on February 22, 2010, 01:48 AM
    Only punishment is 100 lashes.



    You make sound like its a slap on the wrist...   As if one should be grateful that its the 'only' punishment.  Hadiths also describe Muhammad stoning people, if I remember well.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #22 - February 22, 2010, 01:56 AM
    Quote from: ras111 on February 22, 2010, 01:53 AM
    You make sound like its a slap on the wrist...   As if one should be grateful that its the 'only' punishment.  Hadiths also describe Muhammad stoning people, if I remember well.


    Those hadiths can go to trash can. Quran is the final authority. Not some hadith collected by Bukhari/Muslim 200 years later.
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #23 - February 22, 2010, 01:57 AM
    Quote from: iffo on February 22, 2010, 01:56 AM
    Those hadith can go to trash can. Quran is the final authority. Not some hadith collected by Bukhari/Muslim 200 years later.


    Ahh I see.. So you're another 'quran only' Muslim.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #24 - February 22, 2010, 02:03 AM
    Quote from: ras111 on February 22, 2010, 01:57 AM
    Ahh I see.. So you're another 'quran only' Muslim.

    Yes hadiths are just stories,  can not take them very seriously. Specially when some contradict with quran head on.

  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #25 - February 22, 2010, 03:49 AM
    Quote from: iffo on February 22, 2010, 01:48 AM


    Quran does not say stone to death for fornication.  Only punishment is 100 lashes.




    I agree with you, but looking at old testaments adulterer were stoned to death as well, in that case the God is same and the law should be same aswell.  What you think?
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #26 - February 22, 2010, 04:01 AM

    Quote from: xtr00 on February 22, 2010, 03:49 AM
    I agree with you, but looking at old testaments adulterer were stoned to death as well, in that case the God is same and the law should be same aswell.  What you think?

     

    Quran over rules everything that came before.  Once we have quran we don't need guidence from any other previous sources, that will be putting down quran. Quran is complete. If god wanted us to stone the adulter  then he must have mentioned it.

    God says follow quran, not OT.
    Plus old books have been edited by men so we can not to rely on them.
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #27 - February 22, 2010, 06:00 AM
    Koran is too small to make a religion. Koran does not contain enough information to explain itself even. This is why, muslims have to depend on books other than the koran. It really sucks for people like you, who are looking to save their dignity from the claptrap that exist in their culture/religion. But I am very sorry, the koran is not enough to make a religion.

    How do you know how to fast, how do you know how to pray, how do you know how to perform the hajj? how do you know the definition of zina, or fahisha, or noshooz? On which case do you apply whipping? What is nikah? is nikah marriage? how come? How do you even know how to do the 'Arkan - Corners of Islam' when the koran does not give enough information?

    You can keep protesting against the hadith all you want, muslims have an answer for you, 'Science of Hadith', and unfortunately, very unfortunately that is, the stoning in the hadith, does not contradict the whipping of the koran.

    Cheers and sorry if in this situation, reality, did not conform to your goal/wish in life.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #28 - February 22, 2010, 06:55 AM
    Quote from: iffo on February 22, 2010, 04:01 AM


    Quran over rules everything that came before.  Once we have quran we don't need guidence from any other previous sources, that will be putting down quran. Quran is complete. If god wanted us to stone the adulter  then he must have mentioned it.

    God says follow quran, not OT.
    Plus old books have been edited by men so we can not to rely on them.


    How will you know whether its a sin to take slaves, or cross dress then?
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Honor Killings v. Quran 4:15- sort of prolonged honor killings
     Reply #29 - February 22, 2010, 07:19 AM
    What you mean Ras? I have to take off this Agent Provocateur lingerie?! I bought it for my gf but I need to make sure it will look good on her, that's why I'm wearing it. If anybody is wondering, no I am not a cross-dresser.
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