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 Topic: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers

 (Read 7956 times)
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  • Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     OP - February 18, 2010, 11:10 AM

    http://www.voice-online.co.uk/content.php?show=17071

    Britain's first Asian judge has caused controversy by saying that Sikh students should be allowed to carry ceremonial daggers.

    Sir Mota Singh QC jumped to the defence of a 14-year-old student who was excluded for bringing a Kirpan blade to school and waded into the debate over religious freedom in schools.

    The pupil was excluded from his school in Barnet, north London, last year after he refused to acknowledge a ban on daggers, which are carried on every Sikh after baptism.

    Sir Mota, a Sikh who was appointed to the bench in 1982, said: “Not allowing someone who is baptised to wear the Kirkpan is not right.

    “I see no objection to a Sikh girl or boy, who has been baptised to wear the Kirkpan if that’s what they want to do. I wear my Kirpan and I’ve always worn it for the last 35-50 years, even when I was in court or visiting public buildings, including Buckingham Palace.”

    The boy’s family, who have called for the schools secretary, Ed Balls to give clear-cut advice to schools regarding Kirpans, are still deciding whether to bring a discrimination claim against The Compton School in Barnet, which said it imposed the ban for safety reasons.


    "When one bright intellect meets another bright intellect, the light increases and the Way becomes clear -- Rumi
  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #1 - February 18, 2010, 05:32 PM

    This is great news for us jedi!

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #2 - February 18, 2010, 05:34 PM

    Fucking stupid.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #3 - February 18, 2010, 05:41 PM

    These kirpanas are generally blunt, but I am opposed to any student carrying a dagger. Sikhs in the West, from my observation(I visited UK in my summer holidays for years to meet my aunt & cousins) often seem to be very tribalistic, not dissimilar to the Muslims. But they're a hard working community who do well economically, & don't live off welfare.

    If you want to carry daggers, why not go back to rural Punjab?

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #4 - February 18, 2010, 05:43 PM

    This is great news for us jedi!

    Absolutely!

    If Sith students are allowed to carry daggers surely the same should apply to Jedi Padawans.
  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #5 - February 18, 2010, 05:46 PM


    Sikhs are wickedly chilled out  Afro




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #6 - February 18, 2010, 05:46 PM

    I love Sikhs, they are a generally good people. Like Rashna said, the sikhs in Canada are very hardworking and also much more trustworthy than other desi types. But they are extremely tribalistic. I think the sikhs in Canada commit more honor crimes against their daughters than even Muslims. There's been quite a few in Alberta and even more in British Columbia.

    They are often imposing about their religious traditions though and regularly challenge secular regulations to allow special permission for their turbans, beards and kirpans.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #7 - February 18, 2010, 05:47 PM

    Sikhs are wickedly chilled out  Afro



    Honestly billy, there are lots of parallels with the Muslim community and Sikhs. Are you seriously ok with turbans and daggers being imposed on secular institutions?

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #8 - February 18, 2010, 05:56 PM

    I love Sikhs, they are a generally good people.  [T]he sikhs... are very hardworking and also much more trustworthy than other desi types. But they are extremely tribalistic.


    Might I also add, VERY caste conscious.  There is a large Sikh community in Northern California where the climate is similar to the Punjab and they are into farming and own a lot of the convenience stores and trucking businesses in the area but they don't really mix much with people outside their community. 

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #9 - February 18, 2010, 05:58 PM

    I don't see anything wrong with turbans - ceremonial daggers need to be addressed.

    My experience of Sikhs is that they are chilled. They integrate and their attitude towards British society is as different from the attitude towards British society that you see amongst mirpuri Pakistanis and sylheti Bangladeshis. A Sikh friend and his family looked after me when I was very down once - and they don't have a 'kuffar' complex in my experience.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #10 - February 18, 2010, 06:00 PM

    Honestly billy, there are lots of parallels with the Muslim community and Sikhs. Are you seriously ok with turbans and daggers being imposed on secular institutions?


    Sikhism started out as a faith which sought to syncretize Hinduism & Islam, so it has parallels with both, in their theology & practices. The founder of the faith, Nanak didn't even want to start a separate religion initially,just teach the two communities to live together peacefully.

    However, later Sikh persecution at the hands of Muslim bigot emperors militarized the community & the nascent faith. In terms of theology, Sikhism is very nice(although it also has a holy war element), unfortunately in terms of practice, they appear to have adopted some of the worst aspects of both Hinduism & Islam.

    However, Sikhs are in general hardworking, honest & successful,qualities sadly often lacking in Muslims from similar backgrounds & regions

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #11 - February 18, 2010, 06:05 PM

    I don't see anything wrong with turbans - ceremonial daggers need to be addressed.

    My experience of Sikhs is that they are chilled. They integrate and their attitude towards British society is as different from the attitude towards British society that you see amongst mirpuri Pakistanis and sylheti Bangladeshis. A Sikh friend and his family looked after me when I was very down once - and they don't have a 'kuffar' complex in my experience.


    In Canada they constitute the biggest ghettos and parallel ethnic communities. Far from 'integration'. They also cling to their traditions very aggressively and are pretty controlling towards their children and community members. They are in all practicality just like Muslims. In fact, Canadian Sikhs are far more like UK Muslims. They also constitute some of the largest and most violent criminal gangs in western Canada. A few years back their intercene gang warfare and tribal killings pretty much dominated the news in Alberta and BC.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #12 - February 18, 2010, 06:06 PM

    Sikhism started out as a faith which sought to syncretize Hinduism & Islam, so it has parallels with However, Sikhs are in general hardworking, honest & successful,qualities sadly often lacking in Muslims from similar backgrounds & regions


    Yes we get it Rashna, all Muslims are lazy barbarians who do nothing.

    We get it. Move along.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #13 - February 18, 2010, 06:10 PM

    I admire Sikhs quite a lot.  I like their emphasis on identity and their military tradition. Still I find their insistence of wearing a turban and a ceremonial dagger in working environments annoying.  As with Muslims they shouldn't be exempted when it comes to the working place.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #14 - February 18, 2010, 06:11 PM

    Yes we get it Rashna, all Muslims are lazy barbarians who do nothing.

    We get it. Move along.


    She wasn't implying anything Iblis.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #15 - February 18, 2010, 06:12 PM

    In Canada they constitute the biggest ghettos and parallel ethnic communities. Far from 'integration'. They also cling to their traditions very aggressively and are pretty controlling towards their children and community members. They are in all practicality just like Muslims. In fact, Canadian Sikhs are far more like UK Muslims. They also constitute some of the largest and most violent criminal gangs in western Canada. A few years back their intercene gang warfare and tribal killings pretty much dominated the news in Alberta and BC.


    Its kind of strange, because they are the opposite of that in the UK. In the UK, its Pakistanis and Bangladeshis that are like that, high crime rates and so on. And yeah, they are relatively well integrated in contrast to those communities. Like I said, Sikh lads I know are very chilled out.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #16 - February 18, 2010, 06:13 PM

     As with Muslims they shouldn't be exempted when it comes to the working place.


    Exactly. Hijabs and Turbans are all the same to me.

    And just like hijabs, lots of Sikh kids are forced to wear that stuff by their parents.

    And kirpans have no place in any modern institution. Blunt or not.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #17 - February 18, 2010, 06:23 PM


    Most of the Sikhs I've met don't wear turbans. Some of them did when they were young, and then stopped wearing them, although I didn't ask them all why.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #18 - February 18, 2010, 06:49 PM

    Yes we get it Rashna, all Muslims are lazy barbarians who do nothing.

    We get it. Move along.


    Umm, in case you didn't notice or failed to read, I did make quite a few critical points about Sikhs as well. In that very post. As for the bit you chose to notice, why you have posted extremely similar things multiple times.Is it allright for you to make such comments, but wrong for me to do likewise?

    Knowing my uncanny ability to dig up old threads, do you want me to dig up threads where you say near identical things? Btw, I said often, not all.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #19 - February 18, 2010, 09:50 PM

    In Canada they constitute the biggest ghettos and parallel ethnic communities. Far from 'integration'. They also cling to their traditions very aggressively and are pretty controlling towards their children and community members.

    The sikhs of canada are also heavily influenced by the khalistanis who want to create a separate state of khalistan out of indian punjab.
    http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/uncategorized/india-raises-concern-over-khalistan-activities-in-canada_10026473.html

    "When one bright intellect meets another bright intellect, the light increases and the Way becomes clear -- Rumi
  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #20 - February 18, 2010, 09:54 PM

    unfortunately in terms of practice, they appear to have adopted some of the worst aspects of both Hinduism & Islam.

    What are those aspects?

    "When one bright intellect meets another bright intellect, the light increases and the Way becomes clear -- Rumi
  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #21 - February 18, 2010, 09:59 PM

    The sikhs of canada are also heavily influenced by the khalistanis who want to create a separate state of khalistan out of indian punjab.
    http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/uncategorized/india-raises-concern-over-khalistan-activities-in-canada_10026473.html


    Yeah, the sikhs here are absolutely nuts about that Khalistani pride thing. They have Khalsa symbol thing on practically everything, their cars, their neck chains, tatoos, in their turbans.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #22 - February 18, 2010, 10:05 PM

    Umm, in case you didn't notice or failed to read, I did make quite a few critical points about Sikhs as well. In that very post. As for the bit you chose to notice, why you have posted extremely similar things multiple times.Is it allright for you to make such comments, but wrong for me to do likewise?

    Knowing my uncanny ability to dig up old threads, do you want me to dig up threads where you say near identical things? Btw, I said often, not all.


    You constantly harp on about Muslims being lazy useless animals. You've done this since the first time I read your posts. You regularly go out of your way to paint Bangladeshis as hordes of demonic migrants stinkying up your wonderful clean India. You constantly deride Muslims work ethic every chance you get. You obviously have serious issues with every individual Muslim - irregardless of his/her religious or political views. A Muslim is just a dirty stinky Muslim to you, and will always be a dirty stinky Muslim. Don't deny it, we know your type. Its bloody obvious. So don't go acting all "oh my" when people rightfully call you out.

    And on top of that you paint rosy pictures about every other religious group. Especially how wonderful and productive Zoroastrian Indians are. I have nothing against Parsis, we've had close family friends who are Parsi. But frankly, the minor achievments of an ethnic group that numbers less than a few hundred thousand and whose class status was propped up by their former British overlords is, at the end of the day, irrelevant. Comparing 1.2 billion people to 200,000 is pure comedy at best. And you know it.

    You're a bigot, deal with it.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #23 - February 19, 2010, 06:04 AM

    You're a bigot, deal with it.


    Yeah sure, & you're an ignoramus apologist, deal with that first.

    You kept harping on architecture like the Taj Mahal, but frankly architecture at least equal & far surpassing those existed in India & Pakistan long before Islam invaded & almost cleansed North India of all its Hindu Buddhist architecture.

    India, by virtue of having large, fertile lands, would always by capable of producing enough surplus to generate staggeringly wonderful architecture. Indians for millennia have been creative & capable enough to excel in science & architecture.

    Such examples of brilliant Indian architecture fortunately still exist in South East Asia, like the Angkor Wat.

    Had Muslims not come, stuff like the Taj Mahal would continue to be built & many of the structures which Muslims had razed down as idolatrous & polytheistic would continue to exist.

    This is fact, highlighted to you by Pakman. Deal with this.

    Churches like Hagia Sophia would still exist as Churches, & more churches would exist. Most of the lands Muslims managed to overrun had highly developed ancient sophisticated societies which were extremely brilliant in arts, architecture & politics.

    You regularly go out of your way to paint Bangladeshis as hordes of demonic migrants stinkying up your wonderful clean India.


    My India is anything but wonderful & clean, which I have admitted, but I think it must be having elements superior to your Bangladesh, or so many millions of Bangladeshi illegal immigrants wouldn't have found it a suitable place to immigrate to.

    Also, whether India is "wonderful, clean," or not is irrelevant. Bangladesis have no legal & moral right to migrate, & I as an Indian have every right to object. We never colonized Bangladesh, nor are Bangladeshis in extreme desperate straights due to war or natural calamities.

    I have as much right to protest about Bangladeshi illegal immigrants as I have about any unwelcome guest who decides to stay at my house after arriving without invitation. Its completely irrelevant if my house is wonderfully clean or not.


    And on top of that you paint rosy pictures about every other religious group. Especially how wonderful and productive Zoroastrian Indians are. I have nothing against Parsis, we've had close family friends who are Parsi. But frankly, the minor achievments of an ethnic group that numbers less than a few hundred thousand and whose class status was propped up by their former British overlords is, at the end of the day, irrelevant. Comparing 1.2 billion people to 200,000 is pure comedy at best. And you know it.


    I don't paint fallacious rosy pictures, if other religious group does better things, how can I help it? Am I required to lie for the sake of PCMC ism?

    How can I claim that honor killings happen amongst ethnic European Dutch like they do amongst ethnic European Turks, when they don't?

    Or claim that South Koreans stone like the Iranians do, when they don't?

    Its not only about "achievements" and you know that, its about not discriminating against women, not bombings their adopted homelands etc.

    Zoroastrians in Iran also display these positive attributes, as an Iranian poster Nima attested. As do the Iranian Bahais too, btw.

    Did the evil Brits who propped up Zoroastrians force the Bangladeshis to throw acid on women's faces? Or force Bangladeshi women to have a shorter life expectancy than men(in most places women outlive men due to their natural better health) due to ill treatment they suffer on a daily basis?

    The huge numbers of Muslims make their achievements, or lack of it, even worse, except their achievement of outproducing the competition, & immigrating legally & illegally wherever they choose,discriminating against non Muslims in  Muslim lands while demanding special privileges in non Muslim lands- which are achievements they excel at.

    Who tells Muslims to get their daughters married off at ridiculously young ages(generally but not always), as Indian ex Muslim Cliodna also asserted here? The nasty Brits?  Cheesy

    Or make them wear full veils in public?

    This is pure comedy!

    The 1.2 billion people also includes erstwhie huge colonizer Turkey, whose citizens now choose to migrate to European lands which never colonized anyone-like Switzerland & Scandinavia.

    It also includes nations like Iran, again a nation never colonized by the West, which has become a shithole due to Muslim extremism, while nations like Taiwan have risen to first world status in a remarkably short span of time.

    Am I supposed to overlook these bitter truths, for satisfying fragile Muslim egos?

    ... is pure comedy at best. And you know it.



    Well, I am willing to doff my hat to your superior comic skils, Iblis. The irony of your assertions was amply proven by Pakman when he pointed out how the Indian sub Continent like Persia & Byzantine were all extrememy developed pre Islam with sophisticated architecture, & Muslims if anything made the places more backward.  Wink




    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #24 - February 19, 2010, 03:50 PM

    This is a good decision. You guys are being irrationally fearful of people carrying weapons. It's just a fuckin knife, man. I used to bring a knife to school every day, and I never stabbed anyone. So did a lot of my friends. It's not a big deal. Some of you are acting like the judge said Sikh kids can bring RPG-7s and anthrax spores to school. Again-- it's just a fuckin knife, no reason to get your panties in a bunch.

    Bangladesis have no legal & moral right to migrate,


    They do indeed have a moral right to migrate. Capital is allowed to migrate, but not labor? Yeah, fuck that.

    Quote
    I have as much right to protest about Bangladeshi illegal immigrants as I have about any unwelcome guest who decides to stay at my house after arriving without invitation. Its completely irrelevant if my house is wonderfully clean or not.


    This sounds just like the arguments right-wing bigots in my own country about Mexican immigrants. Just fuckin like it. Maybe you should start up an Indian version of the "Minuteman Project"

    fuck you
  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #25 - February 19, 2010, 04:18 PM


    This sounds just like the arguments right-wing bigots in my own country about Mexican immigrants. Just fuckin like it. Maybe you should start up an Indian version of the "Minuteman Project"


    Or join the Shiv Sena and make their anti-Muslim, anti-Pakistan, and their pitifully racist anti-nonMarathi mantra expand to include Bangladeshis.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiv_Sena

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #26 - February 19, 2010, 04:26 PM


    This sounds just like the arguments right-wing bigots in my own country about Mexican immigrants. Just fuckin like it. Maybe you should start up an Indian version of the "Minuteman Project"



    Why the fuck is it 'bigoted' to dislike being swamped by illegal immigrants?  They are termed illegal for a good reason, their influx will generate instability and a lot of problems in the society they swamp.  Many of them are not as productive as you think they are either.  Inviting skilled migrants is one thing, illegal immigration is another.  I know because here we have had a lot of problems because of it.

    Since you like it so much then maybe you wouldn't mind accommodating some more Somalis and Eritreans I would presume.  We have nothing to do with their problems and we can't afford them

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #27 - February 19, 2010, 04:58 PM

    their influx will generate instability and a lot of problems in the society they swamp.


    Oh whatever man. With the exception of Chinese labor quotas, the US basically had an open-door immigration policy until the 1920s, and has had a regular flow of illegal immigration since then. I don't see having damaged my country one bit. If anything, immigrants had a big fuckin hand in making this country the powerhouse it is today.  

    Quote
    Many of them are not as productive as you think they are either.  Inviting skilled migrants is one thing, illegal immigration is another.  I know because here we have had a lot of problems because of it.


    1. I dunno, I lived in immigrant neighborhoods for a good part of my life, and most of those folks were workin 80 hours a week-- even the drug dealers had regular jobs they worked over 40 hours a week with no overtime. I know because I worked at the same jobs with the people who lived in my neighborhood, and they busted ass. Fact is, people who are willing to migrate hundreds or thousands of miles away from their homeland to a country where they don't speak the language or know the culture, and take risks in migrating illegally don't tend to be lazy.

    2. The ones that are abusing the welfare system, the solution is simple-- don't give them those services.

    3. If they are driving down wages for unskilled and semiskilled jobs-- raise the minimum wage or organize the illegal immigrants into the labor unions so that employers can't get cheaper labor out of them.

    Quote
    Since you like it so much then maybe you wouldn't mind accommodating some more Somalis and Eritreans I would presume.  


    Nope. We actually got a lot of Eritreans here in Philly already. They don't cause problems or crime for the most part, are hard workers and make delicious food. Sure, send 'em over.

    Quote
    We have nothing to do with their problems and we can't afford them


    I don't know the particular demographic/economic situation in Malta, but I suspect that it's much like the rest of Western/Central Europe and the US, and if it weren't for immigrants (including illegal immigrants) entering the workforce, due to your aging population, you soon would not have enough young people in the workforce to sustain the pensions of those who have retired. In which case, you can't not afford them. If abuse of welfare/social services or wage depression is a problem, see the pretty fuckin simple solutions I listed above.

    Lastly, a question-- why is it okay for capital to move in and out of a country freely, but not labor? Why is it acceptable to have open borders for money, equipment and businesses, but not people?

    fuck you
  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #28 - February 19, 2010, 05:36 PM

    Oh whatever man. With the exception of Chinese labor quotas, the US basically had an open-door immigration policy until the 1920s, and has had a regular flow of illegal immigration since then. I don't see having damaged my country one bit. If anything, immigrants had a big fuckin hand in making this country the powerhouse it is today. 


    Well we're not the US.  For starters we hardly even appear on a map.... 

    1. I dunno, I lived in immigrant neighborhoods for a good part of my life, and most of those folks were workin 80 hours a week-- even the drug dealers had regular jobs they worked over 40 hours a week with no overtime. I know because I worked at the same jobs with the people who lived in my neighborhood, and they busted ass. Fact is, people who are willing to migrate hundreds or thousands of miles away from their homeland to a country where they don't speak the language or know the culture, and take risks in migrating illegally don't tend to be lazy.


    Illegal immigrants do not come from one ethnic group, some are hard working I will admit, some are not.  Then there are family issues.  You get women from certain ethnic groups coming with their husbands and simply serving as baby machines and they don't even work.

    2. The ones that are abusing the welfare system, the solution is simple-- don't give them those services.


    Its not that simple... they come claiming asylum and because of certain regulations we are obliged to give them certain services such as medicines and that sort of stuff, usually at the expense of the locals.  Resources are limited here and import quite a lot of stuff as well.  Living on an island has its disadvantages.  

    3. If they are driving down wages for unskilled and semiskilled jobs-- raise the minimum wage or organize the illegal immigrants into the labor unions so that employers can't get cheaper labor out of them.


    I would definitely have an issue with them being organised into labour unions.  They broke the law and are illegal, they should not have the same rights that a natural born citizen or a legal migrant has.  We cannot let everybody in for many reasons.  Giving them labour unions would be giving them legitimacy and serve as a pull factor.  The government is currently employing them in cleaning and waste services

    We actually got a lot of Eritreans here in Philly already. They don't cause problems or crime for the most part, are hard workers and make delicious food. Sure, send 'em over.


    This is one of the reasons why I do not agree with our government's proposal of burden sharing.  You're right, where I study we have quite a number of illegal Eritreans and Ethiopian cleaners working and they both hard working and nice people on the whole (I'm still not pleased with them for coming here illegally though).  That is why other governments take people like them and leave us with the criminals and not so pleasant groups, who were also coming here in large numbers.

    I don't know the particular demographic/economic situation in Malta, but I suspect that it's much like the rest of Western/Central Europe and the US, and if it weren't for immigrants (including illegal immigrants) entering the workforce, due to your aging population, you soon would not have enough young people in the workforce to sustain the pensions of those who have retired. In which case, you can't not afford them. If abuse of welfare/social services or wage depression is a problem, see the pretty fuckin simple solutions I listed above.


    Our population is aging but the gap is still not that great, with a little education and nativist policies it can be addressed.  Economically we are not poor but we are not rich either.  When it comes to my country there are others things that that matter to me as well part from my pension.  I don't just think economically.

    Lastly, a question-- why is it okay for capital to move in and out of a country freely, but not labor? Why is it acceptable to have open borders for money, equipment and businesses, but not people?


    Its not that one should be completely closed to migration.  Controlled migration is a good thing, especially if the people who are getting in the country are skilled and decent people.  We have a lot of those from Chinese, Indian, Filipino and Eastern European countries, no one here has any issues with them.  Its just letting everybody in that bothers me.  


    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Judge says Sikh students should be allowed to carry daggers
     Reply #29 - February 19, 2010, 05:56 PM

    Well we're not the US.  For starters we hardly even appear on a map.... 


    And you're not India, either. Which is what I was addressing when you responded.

    Quote
    Illegal immigrants do not come from one ethnic group, some are hard working I will admit, some are not.


    Oh bullshit. I don't know how it works in Malta, but in the US the Vietnamese, Cambodians, Laotians, Chinese, Mexicans, Salvadorans, Brazilians, Haitians, Nigerians, Congolese, Liberians, Eritreans-- the vast majority of all of them bust ass. Maybe people come to Malta to sit on their asses, but people come to this country to make money.

    Quote
    Its not that simple... they come claiming asylum and because of certain regulations we are obliged to give them certain services such as medicines and that sort of stuff, usually at the expense of the locals.  Resources are limited here and import quite a lot of stuff as well.  Living on an island has its disadvantages.

      

    Well, if they have an asylum case pending then their status isn't exactly that of an "illegal immigrant", now is it?

    Quote
    I would definitely have an issue with them being organised into labour unions.  They broke the law and are illegal, they should not have the same rights that a natural born citizen or a legal migrant has.  We cannot let everybody in for many reasons.  Giving them labour unions would be giving them legitimacy and serve as a pull factor.


    BULL-FUCKING-SHIT. And this is a case where I will not defer to your opinions over what should happen in your own country, because labor unions exist to represent workers NOT workers of a certain nationality. Labor unions have a moral obligation to represent any worker within their jurisdiction, no matter where they came from or how they got there.

    Quote
    This is one of the reasons why I do not agree with our government's proposal of burden sharing.  You're right, where I study we have quite a number of illegal Eritreans and Ethiopian cleaners working and they both hard working and nice people on the whole (I'm still not pleased with them for coming here illegally though).  That is why other governments take people like them and leave us with the criminals and not so pleasant groups, who were also coming here in large numbers.


    I'm not understanding you here.

    Quote
    Our population is aging but the gap is still not that great, with a little education and nativist policies it can be addressed.  Economically we are not poor but we are not rich either.  When it comes to my country there are others things that that matter to me as well part from my pension.  I don't just think economically.


    We'll see if you still feel that way when you're approaching retirement age and the government tells you you have to work another 10 years because there isn't enough pension money to cover you.

    Quote
    Its not that one should be completely closed to migration.  Controlled migration is a good thing, especially if the people who are getting in the country are skilled and decent people.  We have a lot of those from Chinese, Indian, Filipino and Eastern European countries, no one here has any issues with them.  Its just letting everybody in that bothers me.


    What I'm saying is that if capital has full mobility (which, with the proliferation of free-trade agreements, is increasingly becoming the case all over the world), then labor should have full mobility too.

    My bottom line is that if you want to work and you're a decent person, then you're welcome in my country as far as I'm concerned, and I could give a fuck less if you entered the country illegally or overstayed your visa, anymore than I care if my neighbor smokes pot, illegally gambles, or goes over the speed limit on the highway.

    fuck you
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