Misspelled?

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- TheRationalizer
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Misspelled?
OP - February 20, 2010, 02:43 PM

I have a literal Quran, in it it says
"NOTICE (Word) IS MISSPELLED WITH A (Saad) INSTEAD OF (Sin)"

7:69

The word (phonetically) is
Ba Saad TTa Ta

Can anyone else see that spelling in their Quran? Why would it be spelled incorrectly?

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http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
- King Koopa
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #1 - February 20, 2010, 04:40 PM

What is this Quran? Care to share an amazon link?
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #2 - February 20, 2010, 10:10 PM

http://www.megafileupload.com/en/file/196710/Literal-Quran-pdf.html

It's a literal translation, it's very useful when looking into Quran miracle claims because you can see where they have dishonestly translated the meaning of the text in order to make it fit their claim. Harun Yahya does that trick quite often :-)

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #3 - February 20, 2010, 10:17 PM

Harun Yahya is a pervert, interior designer with baroque taste and most definitely not a scientist.
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #4 - February 20, 2010, 10:19 PM

And thanks a bunch! TheRationalizer you mind telling us your beliefs? How long did you study Islam? What made you want to become a Muslim? And what are your beliefs now and why?
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #5 - February 20, 2010, 10:21 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 20, 2010, 02:43 PM
I have a literal Quran, in it it says
"NOTICE (Word) IS MISSPELLED WITH A (Saad) INSTEAD OF (Sin)"

7:69

The word (phonetically) is
Ba Saad TTa Ta

Can anyone else see that spelling in their Quran? Why would it be spelled incorrectly?

أَوَعَجِبْتُمْ أَنْ جَاءَكُمْ ذِكْرٌ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ عَلَىٰ رَجُلٍ مِنْكُمْ لِيُنْذِرَكُمْ وَاذْكُرُوا إِذْ جَعَلَكُمْ خُلَفَاءَ مِنْ بَعْدِ قَوْمِ نُوحٍ وَزَادَكُمْ فِي الْخَلْقِ بَسْطَةً فَاذْكُرُوا آلَاءَ اللَّهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ -٩٦
The word is Bastatan بَسْطَةً it should be with a Sin ( س) and not a Sad (ص)

It appears your Qur'an has it misspelt?

Where did you get this Qur'an?

Is it an old manuscript?

Is that a scribal error?
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #6 - February 20, 2010, 10:23 PM

How can there be scribal errors? I thought Allah oversaw all the published Qurans so we won't have miscommunication?

Quran © Allah
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #7 - February 20, 2010, 10:24 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on February 20, 2010, 10:23 PM
How can there be scribal errors? I thought Allah oversaw all the published Qurans so we won't have miscommunication?

Allah delegates... and you just can't find the staff!
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #8 - February 20, 2010, 10:25 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 20, 2010, 10:24 PM
Allah delegates... and you just can't find the staff!

It's hard to get decent middle-management today I can imagine back when people couldn't even read and write!! Poor guy has to work with imbeciles.
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #9 - February 21, 2010, 01:46 AM

4:34 in this literal translation is not translated with beat or scourge them. Strange...
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #10 - February 21, 2010, 09:51 AM

Quote from: BlackDog on February 20, 2010, 10:19 PM
And thanks a bunch! TheRationalizer you mind telling us your beliefs? How long did you study Islam? What made you want to become a Muslim? And what are your beliefs now and why?

It was long, so I replied in "Introductions"
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8832.0

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #11 - February 21, 2010, 10:01 AM

Thanks. Read it and posted a reply

BTW 4:34 check that out.

And also check out 78:33 And full grown breasts and not aging

Check out 56:36 So we created them First borns/virgins

That is in the quran about women in heaven. God talks about big boobs. Is this not remarkable? I mean what more do you need that this was a book for the 7th Century? They had no shame in their bodies. Children read this book. Are you gonna tell a 9 year old boy about this? And if not, why not? Surely you can't say God's message is impure, and not intended for children?
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #12 - February 21, 2010, 10:06 AM

Quote from: Hassan on February 20, 2010, 10:21 PM

أَوَعَجِبْتُمْ أَنْ جَاءَكُمْ ذِكْرٌ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ عَلَىٰ رَجُلٍ مِنْكُمْ لِيُنْذِرَكُمْ وَاذْكُرُوا إِذْ جَعَلَكُمْ خُلَفَاءَ مِنْ بَعْدِ قَوْمِ نُوحٍ وَزَادَكُمْ فِي الْخَلْقِ بَسْطَةً فَاذْكُرُوا آلَاءَ اللَّهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ -٩٦
The word is Bastatan بَسْطَةً it should be with a Sin ( س) and not a Sad (ص)

It appears your Qur'an has it misspelt?

In my version by Dr Muhammad Muhsin Khan from Darussalam publishers it is SAAD.

I also have a book that is purely Arabic (it's a really nice book, colour coded for silent letters etc), and in that it is SAAD too.

I know what the Muslim excuse would be though. They would quote the hadith where someone started praying and another person said they had it wrong, they corrected them only to be corrected by a third person. They went to Muhammad to ask who was right and he said that Allah had revealed the Quran in 7 different ways, one for each tribe or something.

Have you seen this site?
http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/seven.htm

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http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #13 - February 21, 2010, 10:10 AM

Yeah that's the excuse people will say. That's the thing, its misspelled in the Quran. Yet they go to Hafiz for authenticity? Where do the Hafiz get their source from? Also, how can there be different modes of reading? 7 of them. I don't know the arabic language enough, but let's compare with english or Latin, would it mean you can read my post 7 different ways. Or does it mean there are 7 different versions of my post.

If the first, then how is that possible? How can you read these words in 7 different ways? Will that not be 7 different meanings? Are people hiding some truth here or is it simply true :S
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #14 - February 21, 2010, 10:57 AM

It's just like "Yes" and "Yeah". I am told that the different spellings do not result in different words, but I have not looked into it.

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #15 - February 21, 2010, 11:21 AM

Quote from: BlackDog on February 21, 2010, 10:10 AM
Yeah that's the excuse people will say. That's the thing, its misspelled in the Quran. Yet they go to Hafiz for authenticity? Where do the Hafiz get their source from? Also, how can there be different modes of reading? 7 of them. I don't know the arabic language enough, but let's compare with english or Latin, would it mean you can read my post 7 different ways. Or does it mean there are 7 different versions of my post.

If the first, then how is that possible? How can you read these words in 7 different ways? Will that not be 7 different meanings? Are people hiding some truth here or is it simply true :S

Well Latin is different from Arabic, apparently in Arabic, one word can have multiple related meanings, if that's what they are referring to. Such as 'qawwa', apparently that word can be used in different contexts. It can mean physical strength and it can be used to refer to a military force. I hope the native Arabic speakers here can confirm what I am saying as I am not 100% sure.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #16 - February 21, 2010, 11:27 AM

I'm not sure what's the point of this thread, but my quran shows the word in question with the letter "sad" and above it there is "seen" and I always read it as "seen" rather than "sad".

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #17 - February 21, 2010, 11:33 AM

Quote from: ras111 on February 21, 2010, 11:21 AM
Well Latin is different from Arabic, apparently in Arabic, one word can have multiple related meanings, if that's what they are referring to. Such as 'qawwa', apparently that word can be used in different contexts. It can mean physical strength and it can be used to refer to a military force. I hope the native Arabic speakers here can confirm what I am saying as I am not 100% sure.

The same word in Hebrew means "rib" or "side" depending on what the surrounding words are. However this is about spelling the same word with different letters.

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #18 - February 22, 2010, 10:15 AM

Quote from: debunker on February 21, 2010, 11:27 AM
I'm not sure what's the point of this thread, but my quran shows the word in question with the letter "sad" and above it there is "seen" and I always read it as "seen" rather than "sad".

The point is that the "sin" is written above it to indicate what it should be, because saad is considered incorrect. I was asking why it is Saad. My Arabic only Quran has Saad. I wrote to the guy who wrote the webpage I linked to and he replied

"My Warsh version has a Sad while my Hafs version has Sad with a Sin above it"

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #19 - February 22, 2010, 10:24 AM

How can there be two versions?

Warsh and Hafs?

They are sent from different cities and publishing houses?
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #20 - February 22, 2010, 11:04 AM

Quote from: BlackDog on February 22, 2010, 10:24 AM
How can there be two versions?

Don't you know the story of the 7 versions of the Quran?

A man was praying when in came another man and started to pray, he heard him recite the Quran incorrectly and confronted him about it. The man said that this is how Muhammad had taught it to him. They approached a third man to settle the dispute and he said both of them were wrong and that Muhammad had taught him a 3rd way.

So they all went to Muhammad and asked who was right. Muhammad told them that they were all right. God had revealed the Quran in 7 different ways.

Interestingly it does seem that there are 7 variations:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/seven.htm

Although I have heard that the number 7 was often used to mean "several" rather than always literally "seven". At least in some "the Quran is never wrong" claims the number 7 is used as "several" otherwise it would prove the Quran wrong I don't recall the details, I think it was a Maurice *cough*twat*cough* Bucaille claim.

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #21 - February 22, 2010, 09:34 PM

Talking of the seven readings (which are variations in the spellings/wording i.e Malik yawma deen or Maalik yawma deen) the hadith explain that this is because they were revealed in seven ahruf - readings - according to local dialects etc...

I'd be interested in the opinions of Debunker and any others as to why such variations exist?

They appear to have been for the benefit of a small group of people in a narrow period of history - why did Allah (blessed be his name) bother?

It seems to me he had his eye on 7th century Arabia far more than the one and a half millennium that followed - not to mention what is to come - no?
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #22 - February 22, 2010, 09:49 PM

@ Hassan

Why these variations exist? I don't know, but the Hadiths in Muslim's book giving the reason for different Ahruf is very very laughable. According to these Hadiths (I could look them up) Muhammed and Gabriel were negotiating how many versions there should be and everytime Gabriel gives a number (below 7), Muhammed objects saying: "That would be too hard for my people" meaning that there should be more to make it easier for them to understand... the funny thing is the variations are TRIVIAL... so how hard is it for all the Arabs to stick to one Harf since the differences are negligible anyway?

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #23 - February 22, 2010, 09:54 PM

Indeed! But I'm interested in your thoughts as to why these variations exist?
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #24 - February 22, 2010, 10:41 PM

Given that the variations are indeed trivial, I really can't imagine why they're there beyond perhaps adding more flavor to the language? I really don't know.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #25 - February 23, 2010, 08:37 AM

Quote from: debunker on February 22, 2010, 10:41 PM
Given that the variations are indeed trivial, I really can't imagine why they're there beyond perhaps adding more flavor to the language? I really don't know.

There is no "need" for them in a pre-planned sense. However as an excuse as to why you told three different people three different things it comes in quite handy.

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #26 - February 23, 2010, 08:44 AM

@ Rationalizer

Quote
There is no "need" for them in a pre-planned sense. However as an excuse as to why you told three different people three different things it comes in quite handy.

you know what I like about smart peole like yourself? They help me see things, my simple mind wouln't normally see on its own... I need the guidance of sharp pople like yourself..

now, could you please point out the 3 different things I said to 3 different people? You think you caught me red handed but I'm no different from a little toddler who just torn to pieces his big brother's homework... so, Big brother? What did I do wrong?

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #27 - February 23, 2010, 08:55 AM
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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #28 - February 23, 2010, 09:50 AM

Quote from: debunker on February 23, 2010, 08:44 AM
so, Big brother? What did I do wrong?

I thought it was clear that I was still on topic? The topic where Muhammad told 3 different people 3 different versions of the same Sura, and when confronted about why the unmistakable words of god seem to have been slightly mistaken he told them that there were multiple versions of the Quran.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but not everything is about you

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Re: Misspelled?
Reply #29 - February 23, 2010, 10:08 AM

Quote
I thought it was clear that I was still on topic? The topic where Muhammad told 3 different people 3 different versions of the same Sura, and when confronted about why the unmistakable words of god seem to have been slightly mistaken he told them that there were multiple versions of the Quran.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but not everything is about you

Oh! So that's what you meant by *you* in your previous comment?

Quote
There is no "need" for them in a pre-planned sense. However as an excuse as to why you told three different people three different things it comes in quite handy.

Didn't I tell you? I suffer from difficulties with reading comprehension too... perhaps if you used *he* instead of *you* while you were addressing me with your comment, I would have known who you were talking about.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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TheRationalizer

OP - February 20, 2010, 02:43 PM

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