Re: The Reformed Islam of COEM
Reply #87 - February 27, 2010, 03:50 AM
As most of the world knows by now that there are various problems between muslim world and the nonmuslim world.
The primary problem in my view is islamization and that is very dangerous. One may ask, why? It is because islam is such a religion that opposes freedom, secularism, democracy, human rights and separation between religion and state but these are absolutely necessary conditions that are required if humanity is to live in peace and harmony to cooperate for progress and prosperity of humanity. In fact we need to improve on freedom, secularism, democracy, human rights and separation between religion and state rather than lose what we have.
It is not possible for humanity to compromise on these fundamentally important things or peace, progress and prosperity will be very difficult if not altogether impossible. The only way forward as I see it is reformation of islam and muslims otherwise clashes between muslim world and nonmuslim world cannot be got rid of. This is why the question, is it possible to reform islam or muslims? If yes, how?
This calls for understanding of islam and muslims as well as nonmuslims by all involved ie muslims and nonmuslims alike. Unless we learn things to some degree that is sufficient to answer the question, we cannot be clear as to what is needed and why or how it could be brought about. Many people see islam like other religions not realising that other religions have been through reformation ie the majority belonging to those religions no longer takes them as they used to but islam is still in its original form as it is understood or taken by a huge majority of muslims anywhere and everywhere. Almost all muslim countries have their state constitutions firmly based on islam and allow only a very limited freedom for secular matters instead of having secular constitutions with limited freedom for matters relating religion. This is why in muslim countries nonmuslims do not and cannot have equal rights as citizens and cannot become political state or government heads ie presidents or prime ministers. They are not allowed to preach in muslim countries as muslims are in secular nonmuslim countries that treat all religions and their followers equal. Nonmuslims in muslim countries are forced to leave or are directly or indirectly forced to convert to islam or live in terrible conditions with very limited opportunities and means that muslims avail them. Any muslim that leaves islam faces death either by way of law or by way of murder by fellow muslims in the street. Nonmuslims are persecuted in muslim countries in various ways and many of them are prosecuted for blasphemy. Thus as nonmuslim population decreases in muslim states, the muslim population increases in nonmuslim countries and becomes a bigger and bigger problem day by day. In fact a lot of muslim people leave muslim countries as asylum seeker because they are haunted out of their countries for questioning the setup in their states. The solution is not to give them asylum out of their states but to help them back into their countries by forcing their countries to respect their human rights as equal citizens. All sensible people should be prepare to go to war over these important principles.
These matters are very serious showing reasons why islam and muslim must change and soon, if possible through persuasion, if not by force before it is too late and we end up with much more pain, suffering, death and destruction. The more we avoid the issue the more serious the consequences we will face as time goes by.
General public and the political leadership must do all it can to bring pressure to bear on muslims to make long awaited changes and without delay so that we could avoid very damaging consequences that may not be that easily controlable or repairable.
So should islam and muslims reform is no longer the question rather the question now is, how? What islam, muslims and nonmuslims must do so that we all have peace between us for living in harmony to cooperate for progress and prosperity of all involved?
In my view, we all must accept the five pillars of coexistence for humanity as a minimum starting point ie freedom, secularism, democracy, human right and separation between religion and state. Anyone who does not accept these must be persuaded by all means appropriate or necessary without any fear of consequences. Without this approach the world will not have peace to tackle other serious problems facing humanity.
Some people make the mistake of telling us that islam and christianity are the same. Yes there are similarities but there are major difference as well and that is why we have two different religions and people. So islam and christianity are not the same and nor are muslims and christians. The freedom, the secularism, the democracy we have was brought about by christians in the street and if these things were not seen by them good they would not have brought them about. They know full well that if these things disappear today the infighting between christians will also return and will be worse than ever before.
Muslims were always against these things ie freedom, secularism and democracy and they are still against them even today. This is major difference between the two religions and their people.
The us constitution is very clear that it was written by people who believed in god. The separation between religion and state was not forced by atheists etc but by infighting of christians. When they got fed up they came together and found peace by agreeing that they should keep their religious beliefs to themselves thus came the idea that religion should not be part of state affairs. This is why they agreed on freedom of religion but not on freedom from religion, that was just the consequence or byproduct of what they agreed on. This is very important point to realise. Had this not been the case there would have been no reason for the phrase, in god we trust. The US constitution is based on secular democracy but allows religious freedoms to a limited degree unlike muslim state constitutions that are based on islam and one cannot bring in any laws that contradict the quran and the hadith.
Muslims also have been fighting each other for a long time eg shia and sunni or wahabies etc etc but have not drawn any constitution that may be based on secular democracy save turkey when it was in trouble and drastic measure was taken by attaturk and his supporters. For last so many decades no other muslim state followed the turkish example, which shows that was just one off things and just came about by far sightedness of the creator of secular democratic turkey. Islamization is still trying to over come the constitutional barrier to turn turkey into another islamic state. Things are still happening in turkey the islamic way.
Some people think it is human nature to be like muslims, I disagree. The problem is not our human nature because if it was, we will not be where we are today. Islam is a tool and muslims are its inventors, modifiers and users just like christianity and christians. Tools are effective that is why we invent or modify them and use them. Humanity has been interacting in the natural environment for many many years. People have been influencing each other always and this will continue for ever. However some influences have been beneficial, others not so beneficial and yet others have been very damaging.
It is always good idea to support beneficial influences and oppose the damaging influences. We are in no doubt that freedom, secularism, democracy, human rights, separation between religion and state are beneficial for humanity because they help people to tolerate each other for coexistence and harmony that is essential for peace, which in turn is absolutely necessary for human progress that helps humanity towards prosperity.
The very idea that if we leave some one else alone then that someone else will leave us alone is not true. Why? Because we humans have never been 100% independent of each other. Since we are interdependent, if one side does not influence the out come of the situation then the other side always does. It is a tug of war or sea-saw effect or situation.
Muslims are bound by allah's commandment of jihad that is why they went on spree of world conquest and that is why there are thousands of missionary or propagation centres to take the message of islam to all corners of the world. It is a situation like the saying, if mountain does not come to muhammad then muhammad must go to the mountain. So no matter what it is not possible to avoid dealing with islam and muslims so better we deal with them now the way it benefits us all at our terms or regret the situation when it is no longer in our control and we are no longer in a position to have the matter settled at our terms. The simple fact is you cannot reason things with unreasonable people till you have the power to bring them round the table.
As for culture and interaction or influences, let us suppose we are all pushing a huge solid ball from all sides, in which direction it is going to move? The answer, in the direction the resultant force takes it. Now let us suppose that the while others are pushing hard from their side, we just let them do that what will happen? The ball will move in the direction set by those who are pushing it. So if we wish to move the world in a particular direction then we must have influence and use it to get it there. If the word is any good today it is because it has been influenced by good people of the past, so it is time we did our share for the future of our generations.
Since islam is a total control system wherein children are given fully under control of their fathers as their property. A father is free even to kill his children there is no legal QISAS=equity against father. However if a father kills his child for reasons other than allowed by allah then he has committed a major sin against allah so it will be up to allah to let go or throw him in hell.
Just as children are given under full control of fathers so wives are given under full control of their husband as their property. A husband may treat his wife as he likes and there is not much a wife can do against her husband legally except take him to court for divorce but if he treats her bad for reasons other than allowed by allah then he has committed a major sin against allah.
A slave is given under full control of his master and the master is free to treat him as he likes because he is master's property. Again a master is not to do to his slave anything that allah forbids him but if he does then he is a sinner against allah. A master is free to kill his slave with legal impunity just like the husband is free to beat up his wife. All a skave can do his get the master to free him provided he has price to pay to his master for his freedom.
Like wise people are given by allah under the full control of the muslim ruler of an islamic state. The ruler is free to do to his people as he sees fit but if he treats them bad for reasons other than allowed by islam then he is committing sin against allah.
Since a social control system is self evident in the quran and the quran is the first thing muslims teach their children it is therefore obvious that in islamic world muslim political leaders are free to exploit fellow muslims in the name of religion and they do not have to be mullahs=muslim religious scholars of islam. Word imaam=leader and people in mosques and religious schools are called imaams because they are leaders of their communities in sense of religious knowledge. Since imams with knowledge of islam are always under control of powerful tribal leaders who themselves come from powerful tribes therefore the real political power does not rest with religious leaders but tribal leaders. It is the tribal leaders who appoint political leaders as well as mullahs in their local and central mosques and areas. This is why people with power and money build more and more religious institutions rather than educational ones because they produce people that would continue things in favour of those who lead them.
This should now make a lot of sense as to how political and religious elements are woven in the islamic political structure and who really pulls strings behind the scenes ie how the whole islamic thing is set up. The army in muslim countries also comes from various tribes. The generals and other top ranking officers come from well off families in the tribes and the rest of soldiers come from less well off and poor families in the tribes. This is why the wars in iraq and afganistan are difficult to win because tribal leaders in there pull different strings as it suits them at different times in different situations.
This explanation should help people know why or how muslims defend islam and why or how islam defends muslims. If we want to bring any change in muslim countries then we must find a way of breaking through this set up to get islam and muslims. This means tackling islam and all sections of its followers at the same time because islam and islamic ummah are like a balloon. If you push your finger in one place it expands at other places. To burst this balloon of islam and its ummah we must work hard to find the way and soon. Failing that will only speed up success of islam and failure of the rest of the world. This is why nonmuslim world must learn to work together or they will not be there to count the cost of their failure.
One must remember that we are dealing here with religion ie islam, its followers in form of tribal leaders, political leaders, religious leaders, army leaders and the muslim masses etc etc. We need to get our hands on at least four heads of this devil ie army leaders, tribal leaders, political leaders and religious leaders to bring situation under control or to change things. This is very difficult indeed in my view because muslims have sympathizers to support them eg like china. So it is really a very tricky situation that was made worse by our political leaders' stupidity. They waged two wars on muslims without much fore thought and even after thought. They have caused a very serious set back that will take time to over come.
I think the behaviour of oic is easily explainable looking at it within explained framework. Because almost all muslims states are mainly tribal so they have tribal mindset and tribalism is their power base. This being the case they would ensure islam is secure because if islam is secure as their political, social, cultural and economic structure, system and practice, their leadership is secure. Since islam provides security of their power so they in return they try to protect islam. This may also explain the reason for the spreading of islam because wherever it goes it provides the top elite of the place with sure security at the expense of the rest. Even in secular democratic world muslim vote is a block vote when it comes to saving islam or spreading islam. Muslims are building mosques upon mosques for what and why should saudis and iranians should provide funds? It is time nonmuslims recognized this danger and serious threat and took effective steps to counter it. Leadership is not going to fight it because it suits them so it is for people in the street to take actions appropriate or necessary. We must always remember that secular democracy was brought about by people in the streets when they got fed up with exploitation of powerful elite. It was result of fight against authoritarianism and power of state against the individual. Individual freedom may have won small battles but the war is still on going so we must not lower our guard or lay down our fighting gear as yet.
I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
Topic: The Reformed Islam of COEM