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Theme Changer

 Topic: Spinoza on Islam

 (Read 13974 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Spinoza on Islam
     OP - February 24, 2010, 12:07 AM



    So I was reading Tariq Ramadan's latest piece in the Guardian today and the guys in the comments were eviscerating his article clinically and impressively as usual. And in the midst of it all, one poster was responding to a Muslim who was blowing raspberries at everyone for being Islamophobic because they were'nt prostrating before Ramadan, and this one fella brought up a great quote from Spinoza:


    +++++

    "To cope with this difficulty, a great deal of effort has been devoted to adorning religion, whether true or false, with pomp and ceremony, so that everyone would find it more impressive than anything else and observe it zealously with the highest degree of fidelity. The Turks [i.e., the Muslims] have organized this very effectively. Believing as they do that it is wicked even to argue about religion, they fill the minds of every individual with so many prejudices that they leave no room for sound reason, let alone for doubt."

    http://assets.cambridge.org/97805218/24118/excerpt/9780521824118_excerpt.htm

    +++++

    It was truthful in 1670, and its truthful in 2010.





    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #1 - February 24, 2010, 12:13 AM

    Nice find Billy.
  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #2 - February 24, 2010, 12:26 AM


    The whole thread is a jolly read. Ramadan's article is, as usual, sophistry and shit, but again, as usual, the overwhelming majority of comments are articulate, rational destructions of everything he says. When the Guardian readership sees through you, you're fucked. He is being kept alive artificially, in a sysytem of patronage that one commenter so mischievously and accurately describes here:

    ++++

    This article is actually terribly instructive. Anyone wishing to join the multi-cultural conference bandwagon ( good buffet lunches, usually a coffee break with biscuits, nice laminated lanyards with your name on it, and all fully paid for by you and me) then this is a text book example of how to do bollox-speak.

    Mr Ramadan has managed to fill an entire column, hence earning his fee
    (admittedly small in the Guardian , but it keeps the brand alive for the next conference booking) without actually saying anything at all.

    He gives no examples of how we might benefit from the 'gift of Islam' because then he'd have to work really hard, compare and contrast, argue and conclude. Given the many incisive and brilliant posts above, it seems he'd have a rather hard time.
    The multicultural conference junkie never gives examples. He uses a cross between theology and the social work vocabularly much loved in the 70's to fill time and space without presenting a point that can be contested.

    Bravo. Genius. From start to finish.

    +++++

    Here is bruzzer Tariq's shite and then the good stuff in the comments underneath:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/feb/23/ethics-citizenship-islam


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #3 - February 24, 2010, 12:32 AM

    social work vocabularly much loved in the 70's to fill time and space without presenting a point that can be contested.

    I can really relate to that.
  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #4 - February 24, 2010, 09:03 AM

    Billy, Spinoza is brilliant. Thanks for putting that quote here. Afro
  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #5 - February 24, 2010, 09:53 AM

    Ramadan's article is, as usual, sophistry and shit ...

    Yet The Guardian is still pushing his stuff!
  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #6 - February 24, 2010, 12:15 PM

    Billy, Spinoza is brilliant. Thanks for putting that quote here. Afro



    My pleasure mate  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #7 - February 24, 2010, 12:17 PM

    Yet The Guardian is still pushing his stuff!


    Yep, but the Guardian is very, very strange and soft headed when it comes to Muslim Brotherhood and Jamaa-e-Islami Ummah Identity Politicians in sheeps clothing, in fact, they are witless saps to them.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #8 - February 24, 2010, 12:34 PM

    I think it is a good step because it is bringing the discussion into the open for which I longed for a very long time. My next desire is that we should fight hard and win the battle of reason and take it to the heart lands of islam ie we should follow people like ramadan into the islamic countries setting up venues for open debates on islam and other ideologies.

    This is a very good opportunity. It gives us reason to ask these prominent muslim scholars to help us organise such open debates in muslim countries. This is the way to go my friends. We have nothing to loose and everything to gain. This is best way to bring reason to muslim minds at large.

    Imagine holding discussions like these in alazhar in cairo or islamabad islamic university etc etc. There is no way to solve the problem of extremism in isolation.

    I think once we have foot in the door discussion will expand in muslim world like wild fire and will have domino effect provided we take real interest.
     

     
       

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #9 - February 24, 2010, 12:45 PM

    ... they are witless saps to them.

    A lot of people uncritically associate whatever happens to be written in the Guardian with a progressive stance. Hell, I see that everyday at work – some of my work colleagues uncritically buy anything written there. People who haven't got a clue what Tariq is talking about but buy it because they feel it's the right thing to do.

    It gives us reason to ask these prominent muslim scholars to help us organise such open debates in muslim countries.

    For a start it would be great if such debates were to take place here in UK.
  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #10 - February 24, 2010, 01:03 PM

    Quote
    People who haven't got a clue what Tariq is talking about but buy it because they feel it's the right thing to do.


    The editors and many of the default Left 'opinion formers' and journalists and so on (just look at the the state of The New Islam Statesman) don't have a clue, I agree with you.

    But just read the comments underneath Tariq Ramadan's article. They are overwhelmingly clinical, cutting, surgical dissections of all of his cant and sophistry. When the readership of the Guardian sees through you, you are fucked. There are a few Muslims who try to do the usual 'True Scotsman Fallacy' and tu quoque on there, but they get seen off and are utterly preposterous.

    When the readership of the leading Left wing daily holds you in contempt and sees through your rhetoric and bullshit, the game is lost. Ramadan has little credibility amongst the British people, he is promoted and kept artifically alive by the 'multicultural conference' crowd who mingle with him, and his strategy is to cultivate them using the rhetoric of 'diversity' and 'tolerance' to promote a gradualist form of Islamification of society. Its not going to happen. He's been sussed out, and this is what gives me hope - for every inverted horror like The New Islam Statesman, there are healthy signs that parts of the Left have begun to wake up to the truth about the Jammat-e-Islami and Muslim Brotherhood wolf in sheeps clothing that dominate the Ummah Identity Politics game in Britain. And that is good.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #11 - February 24, 2010, 01:50 PM

    When the readership of the leading Left wing daily holds you in contempt and sees through your rhetoric and bullshit, the game is lost. Ramadan has little credibility amongst the British people, he is promoted and kept artifically alive by the 'multicultural conference' crowd who mingle with him, and his strategy is to cultivate them using the rhetoric of 'diversity' and 'tolerance' to promote a gradualist form of Islamification of society. Its not going to happen. He's been sussed out, and this is what gives me hope - for every inverted horror like The New Islam Statesman, there are healthy signs that parts of the Left have begun to wake up to the truth about the Jammat-e-Islami and Muslim Brotherhood wolf in sheeps clothing that dominate the Ummah Identity Politics game in Britain. And that is good.

    Inshallah!
  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #12 - February 24, 2010, 02:27 PM

    Have just added my tuppence worth over at the Guardian. Even managed to give this site a shout out Smiley

    EDIT:
    Hmmm Im getting a 404 when I hit submit. Is it an old article?
    Oh well, I will paste my reply here anyway.

     
    The  very first paragraph tells us much about the writers thinking:

    <b>Let us agree on this: we live in pluralistic societies and pluralism is an unavoidable fact. We are equal citizens, but with different cultural and religious backgrounds.</b>
    Erm,well no, I dont agree with that. Some of us don't  have any truck with  religion at all yet you would see that as our religious position.Neither is lack of belief in a supernatural being 'cultural'.That's arrogance and theo-centricity right there.
    If you were truly pluralistic and all embracing you should have given a shout out to the very large percentage of people who profess no religious affiliation. However Ive read what the Quran has to say about the non-believer  so understand you not even wanting to refer to those Untermenschen at all.

    Saying atheism is a religious position is like saying squatting  is a sexual position when all one wants is to empty ones bowls.

    The picture you paint of an Islam that is tolerant of others  and a 'gift' would not be one shared by Peace Award winner  Hector Aleem,the Pakastani Christian currently rotting in an Islamabad jail for,well ,for being a christian, although it is 'blasphemer'  the crowd outside the jail baying for his blood shout.  .Please google this case should you wish to further inform yourself.

    Your proclamations about Islam  are on a par with those cuddly C of E chappies who like to explain that Christianity is a loving,caring religion of peace whilst ignoring all the atrocities commited in the name  of that very same book of love that also contains a blueprint for genocide and unspeakable morality.

    I would have more respect for you if your pluralism and multi-culturism extended to criticising those within your own culture who take your religion's declarations at face value and do seek to impose their way of life on others.
    Of course I may have got you wrong and so perhaps I will get to see you at the next demo of Secular Muslims or perhaps we could take part in a discussion over at the Council of Ex-muslims dot comwhere you can develop and share your thoughts on pluralism within Islam?
    Or would I be insulting your religious identity by asking you to consort with muslims and apostat es that your own community and your own religion   sees as beheading material?

    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #13 - February 24, 2010, 02:39 PM

    Cool! I just read your comments on the Guardian website. The article and your comment are still accessible.
  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #14 - February 24, 2010, 02:44 PM

    Awesome KL let us know if anybody responds
  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #15 - February 24, 2010, 02:48 PM

    As much as I like the idea you had of inviting Tariq Ramadan here to debate, I doubt he would ever accept the invitation. He cannot debate to save his life - he is a reciter of passive-aggressive platitudes that can be eviscerated by the average Guardian reader.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #16 - February 24, 2010, 02:55 PM

    OT:

    Muslim extremist hosted by Kings College London courtesy of KC’s Islamic Society

    http://www.hurryupharry.org/2010/02/24/muslim-extremist-hosted-by-kings-college-london/

    He is anti-Semitic and homophobic. He denounces the “filth” of Jews (Yahood) and kaffirs.(see link I posted)

    He says homosexuals should be executed.(see link I posted)

    Sheikh Abdullah Hakim Quick is on record as preaching:

        * AIDS is caused by the “filthy practices” of homosexuals
        * Homosexuals are dropping dead from AIDS and “they want to take us all down with them”
        * The Islamic position on homosexuality is “death”
        * Homosexuals are “sick” and “not natural”
        * “Muslims are going to have to take a stand [against homosexuals] and it’s not enough to call names” (this last point comes close to an implied threat of violence).

    “King’s College would not host a white supremacist who advocated racism or death to black people. Why the double standards?” queried human rights campaigner Peter Tatchell of the lesbian and gay rights group OutRage!

    “The Islamic Society should not be promoting this fanatic. By giving him a platform it is complicit with homophobic and anti-Jewish hatred. It is colluding with intolerance.

    “The complacent, hands-off attitude of the Vice Chancellor is appalling.

    “King’s College has an equal opportunities policy that prohibits the promotion of hatred against minorities but it is not enforcing it. The university is not a safe place for Jewish and gay students when it facilitates a vicious homophobe and anti-Semite like Sheikh Abdullah Quick.

    “Sheikh Quick was hosted last week by City University and is being given a platform by the University of East London this coming weekend.

    Will Unite Against Fascism be holding a protest outside Kings College?
  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #17 - February 24, 2010, 03:15 PM

    As much as I like the idea you had of inviting Tariq Ramadan here to debate, I doubt he would ever accept the invitation. He cannot debate to save his life - he is a reciter of passive-aggressive platitudes that can be eviscerated by the average Guardian reader.



    That was the point I was making though,that he claims he embraces all 'cultures' and 'religous' stances but he would never come over here 1. because he probably believes ( the Taqiyya drips off him IMO) that you should all be schimatar'd slowly.
           2. becuase he would be exposed as the phlisophical  lightweight and charlatan he is

    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #18 - February 24, 2010, 03:31 PM

    Awesome KL let us know if anybody responds

    No one has yet so I took the liberty of adding another comment  Cheesy


    I would like to conclude by saying ; Tariq you can Taqiyya article and stuff it

    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #19 - February 24, 2010, 05:00 PM

    Some interesting debates between muslims about islam

    BBCDohaDebates - November 30, 2004 - Series 1 Episode 2 (Part 1)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCqOaxNay_0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ime2H52sGg&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUXGTnYO2a8&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXtXU4X96bQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC4dv-OIg20&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0kTCMBPTRI&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxigN_gbJcI&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzPpc4g09xQ&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jp3UA4dSGAI&feature=related

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #20 - February 24, 2010, 05:18 PM

    Doha Debates - Political Islam, a threat or not

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2nRLPh-b_Q&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJxx6yad_nw&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__S1_WKPHQM&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-ZXX2e6Pss&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISsyO3-_Mmw&feature=related

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #21 - February 24, 2010, 10:36 PM

    Mughal, interesting vids thanks for the links. Just read your contribution on the guardian website Afro Afro

    They deleted my Tiqiyya comment. quite right too, it was silly  Cheesy

     

    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #22 - February 25, 2010, 04:05 AM

    Thank you dear kaffir latte, you can find more interesting links to debates and discusions on the following links.

    Obama on state and religion separation

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_zssjFzpGs&feature=related

    Is Islam Dominated by Radicals

    1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dayzema-sJc&feature=related
    2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwZ_Uz0fsGQ&feature=related
    3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5cSZyFjoRs&feature=related
    4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mv4F79xa4U&feature=related
    5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4G0YO3tI2Y&feature=related
    6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9Q8reWNAGQ
    7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XROJwaRg9pM&feature=related
    8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7khUkMXu3aM&feature=related
    9 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKFKmqdGL0w&feature=related
    10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPwrBr7Q_5c&feature=related
    11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2Bzpeyamx0&feature=related
    12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfzYlRpqqMI&feature=related
    13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaF2QwUuhb4&feature=related
    14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw47zT0iJQM&feature=related
    15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pQGoaxs_Vg


    Time for a bit of fun

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqJpZOljjG8&feature=fvw


    http://www.atheistforums.com/islam-what-is-it-t124-225.html

    http://www.atheistforums.com/judaism-v-christianity-v-islam-v-atheism-t20451.html

    Exmuslims have done a great job in bringing truth about islam to nonmuslims. Nonmuslims are no longer ill informed about islam nor are they afraid to talk about it with muslims at least in the nonmuslim world.

    Things are moving in the right direction when it comes to muslim countries bit by bit. If the pressure keeps builing up on muslims, they will have to become like everyone else ie relaxd about their religion.

    In my view we should not make unnecessary demands on muslims because then we lose the effective element  in our arguments against islam and muslims. Of course we learn from our mistakes and get better and better.

    regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Re: Spinoza on Islam
     Reply #23 - February 26, 2010, 06:27 PM

    obama & turkey


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEF2-a6QBx8&feature=fvwe1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D0A0DVUCaI&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaJelU29jeI&feature=related

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
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