Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #90 - February 24, 2010, 05:58 PM

@ Iblis

but the adherents of the"real" Islam are very evil... that's what I thought you, billy and every non-Muslim believes. Which is expected of course. Hence my surprise at Abu's reaction to billy's comment.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #91 - February 24, 2010, 06:01 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 24, 2010, 05:45 PM
There is no such thing as "real" Islam in my opinion.

There may not be a universal understanding, there never will be as its a flawed book so muslims are trying to make the best of a bad job of a religion.

However there is a true Islam, its the one Muhammed wanted to be preached. You can discover that by talking a literalist view of the quran and reading the sira and weak & the strong hadith for context.

This is the problem I have with Debunkers' & AbuY's stance, and why I never took it myself. Once you have done the above, and even if you accept most of the things in the hadith & sira might not be true, the message is consistent and tone is clear. Its uncompromising, backward, right wing, boarish, and every other 'ish' else we have listed below.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #92 - February 24, 2010, 06:02 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 24, 2010, 05:58 PM
@ Iblis

but the adherents of the"real" Islam are very evil... that's what I thought you, billy and every non-Muslim believes. Which is expected of course. Hence my surprise at Abu's reaction to billy's comment.

Stop pretending to be a coy Musulman. Abu Yunus did not state what you're implying. So i'd prefer if you did not take us for idiots, or at least be honest.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #93 - February 24, 2010, 06:02 PM

Quote from: Iblis on February 24, 2010, 05:47 PM
But there are relatively more purer strands of Islam than others, wouldn't you say?

Of course - choose any Muslim you see walking by in the street and ask him.

The most pure form of Islam will be the one he follows!
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #94 - February 24, 2010, 06:03 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 24, 2010, 06:02 PM
Of course - choose any Muslim you see walking by and ask him.

The most pure form of Islam will be the one he follows!

I mean objectively speaking. There are more coherent and internally logical forms of Islam than others. A salafi is alot more logically coherent than a progressive muslim would you not say?

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #95 - February 24, 2010, 06:03 PM

Quote from: Iblis on February 24, 2010, 05:54 PM
But I think the difference is we don't believe ALL muslims turn that way. Real life and human compassion tends to throw a wrench in the evil theological machinery of islam.

nicely put

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #96 - February 24, 2010, 06:04 PM

Quote from: Iblis on February 24, 2010, 06:02 PM
Stop pretending to be a coy Musulman. Abu Yunus did not state what you're implying. So i'd prefer if you did not take us for idiots, or at least be honest.

abu Yunus did not say what I'm implying? What did Abu Yunus say? maybe that's what I missed.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #97 - February 24, 2010, 06:06 PM

I dont think a religion alone can make you a bad person actually. There are some other factors that have to be concidered. (Parents, larger family, friends, etc.)

But in my opinion Islam has one of the more violent and aggressive doctrines, compared to buddhism for example.

So, in my eyes, A muslim is not more likely to be violent and/or racist, but his religion surely provides him with more excuses to be, if he wants to.

In recet days i found myself more and more aware of the fact, that i want to stop all the negative feelings i have towards religion and politics i dont like or i fear.
After all, i cannot change other people, but i can change myself.

Its kind of like the biker culture... There are the ones called 1 percenters... the one percent of bikers that break the law, and are criminals. Like the hells Angels and such. For me the religions are no different these days. Sure, there is this 1% of fanatics that want to end the world, or kill everybody not agreeing with them. But in the end, there are 99% that just want to live a happy life.

In recent times, i allways wondered, what drives people to act so aggressivly. I asked myself, what is it what most people want? Happiness? Health? Wealth? Love?
These are just the ones i came up right now. So, if those are the things humans are looking for, why is it that some fanatics are not satisfied? Why are we allways looking for hate, or to hate others?

But i guess i just wandered off in my thoughts...

"We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves." - from Goethes Faust
"Only the wisest and the stupidest men never change." - Confuzios
"there is no religion of peace, only people who are peaceful while being religious."
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #98 - February 24, 2010, 06:08 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 24, 2010, 06:04 PM
abu Yunus did not say what I'm implying? What did Abu Yunus say? maybe that's what I missed.

Seriously just stop it. It's starting to get really annoying. You know EXACTLY what abuyunus said. The key is "ALL MUSLIMS". I do not believe ALL muslims are believers in REAL Islam - why is what abuyunus implied. You, on the other hand, are saying that believers in REAL islam (ie not all Muslims) are evil - which I agree.

Small logical nuances make a big difference. And you're fondling with those differences like a bitch on my nuts. Stop that.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #99 - February 24, 2010, 06:10 PM

Quote from: IsLame on February 24, 2010, 06:01 PM
There may not be a universal understanding, there never will be as its a flawed book so muslims are trying to make the best of a bad job of a religion.

However there is a true Islam, its the one Muhammed wanted to be preached. You can discover that by talking a literalist view of the quran and reading the sira and weak & the strong hadith for context.

This is the problem I have with Debunkers' & AbuY's stance, and why I never took it myself. Once you have done the above, and even if you accept most of the things in the hadith & sira might not be true, the message and tone is clear. Its uncompromising, backward, right wing, boarish, and every other 'ish' else we have listed below.

What Muhammd preached varied over time and is often contradictory. The literalists are just as selective as the Sufis or the moderates etc...

I think it is useless to try and prove there is a true Islam. In fact it worries me when people do that - they do that a lot on FFI - as it is often so they can justify their hatred or bigoted agenda. They end up endlessly trying to convince an ordinary Muslim that real Islam is not the Islam he believes in (and often accusing him of Taqiyya)

As far as I'm concerned there is no true/real Islam - only many versions of Islam.

After all it is human being themselves that define what they believe. If they believe Islam is such and such then for them that's Islam.

There seems something very wrong about trying to impose a nasty form of Islam on them just so you can say "Aha you see!"
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #100 - February 24, 2010, 06:11 PM

Quote
Seriously just stop it. It's starting to get really annoying. You know EXACTLY what abuyunus said. The key is "ALL MUSLIMS". I do not believe ALL muslims are believers in REAL Islam - why is what abuyunus implied. You, on the other hand, are saying that believers in REAL islam (ie not all Muslims) are evil - which I agree.

Small logical nuances make a big difference. And you're fondling with those differences like a bitch on my nuts. Stop that.

Ok now you're being a little slut yourself Iblis... I was clarifying to Abu Yunus that there is a difference between what he considers the real Islam and what others do... and that he shouldn't be offended at all... and that singling out billy was unfair.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #101 - February 24, 2010, 06:11 PM

Quote from: Iblis on February 24, 2010, 06:03 PM
I mean objectively speaking. There are more coherent and internally logical forms of Islam than others. A salafi is alot more logically coherent than a progressive muslim would you not say?

See my answer to IsLame.
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #102 - February 24, 2010, 06:14 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 24, 2010, 06:10 PM
What Muhammd preached varied over time and is often contradictory. The literalists are just as selective as the Sufis or the moderates etc...

I think it is useless to try and prove there is a true Islam. In fact it worries me when people do that - they do that a lot on FFI - as it is often so they can justify their hatred or bigoted agenda. They end up endlessly trying to convince an ordinary Muslim that real Islam is not the Islam he believes in (and often accusing him of Taqiyya)

As far as I'm concerned there is no true/real Islam - only many versions of Islam.

After all it is human being themselves that define what they believe. If they believe Islam is such and such then for them that's Islam.

There seems something very wrong about trying to impose a nasty form of Islam on them just so you can say "Aha you see!"

So maybe better to refer to the ones that are twisted by religion, as literal muslims rather than true muslims?

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #103 - February 24, 2010, 06:17 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on February 24, 2010, 06:14 PM
So maybe better to refer to the ones that are twisted by religion, as literal muslims rather than true muslims?

And that's exactly what I always do, Berbs - I am always careful to say Literalists or Salafis or Fundamentalist etc...
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #104 - February 24, 2010, 06:26 PM

I follow a literal interpretation of the Quran (and reject hadith for obvious reasons) - although of course this is still only my own interpretation of the Quran - what category do I fall under - a fake muslim?

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #105 - February 24, 2010, 06:29 PM

@ abu

You are certainly a fake Muslim to many Muslims and non-Muslims... the same could be said about me.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #106 - February 24, 2010, 06:30 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 24, 2010, 06:26 PM
I follow a literal interpretation of the Quran (and reject hadith for obvious reasons) - although of course this is still only my own interpretation of the Quran - what category do I fall under - a fake muslim?

So you beat your wife, or would beat your wife?

Literal, word for word interpretation of sura 4:34 leads to beats for disobediance. Is this what you are saying?

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #107 - February 24, 2010, 06:38 PM

''So you beat your wife, or would beat your wife?

Literal, word for word interpretation of sura 4:34 leads to beats for disobediance. Is this what you are saying?''

No I do not beat my wife and would never hit her. The verse makes it permissible for me to hit my wife - it is not something I am ordered to do. Of course there are other verses in the Quran that tell me to live on a 'footing of kindness and equity' with my wife. We have a very happy and respectful relationship.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #108 - February 24, 2010, 06:39 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 24, 2010, 06:29 PM
@ abu

You are certainly a fake Muslim to many Muslims and non-Muslims... the same could be said about me.

apparently so....

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #109 - February 24, 2010, 06:40 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 24, 2010, 06:38 PM
''So you beat your wife, or would beat your wife?

Literal, word for word interpretation of sura 4:34 leads to beats for disobediance. Is this what you are saying?''

No I do not beat my wife and would never hit her. The verse makes it permissible for me to hit my wife - it is not something I am ordered to do. Of course there are other verses in the Quran that tell me to live on a 'footing of kindness and equity' with my wife. We have a very happy and respectful relationship.

Do you believe that this permission is fair?

Do you believe that a man has more right to use physical chastisement on a woman, than say another verse telling a woman she can slap her husband if he fails to provide for her for instance?

Do you believe that it is far too open to abuse?

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #110 - February 24, 2010, 06:45 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 24, 2010, 06:26 PM
I follow a literal interpretation of the Quran (and reject hadith for obvious reasons) - although of course this is still only my own interpretation of the Quran - what category do I fall under - a fake muslim?

Yes, I believe only wahhabis follow Islam as it was meant to be followed. The rest of you are just making Islam palatable to your personal conscience and modernised ideals. A bit like taking a Delia Smith and adding chilli, your own vegetables & spices and altering the cooking method too, and still calling it one of Delia Smiths. However we are not talking about Delia Smith here. We are talking about Allah, the omnipotent & omnicient creator of everything.

I believe he could have done a much better job, otherwise none of these discussions would even be taking place.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #111 - February 24, 2010, 06:47 PM

''Do you believe that this permission is fair?''
No it doesn't seem fair using my own logic.

''Do you believe that it is far too open to abuse?''
Yes. I can't understand why God would include it in the Quran.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #112 - February 24, 2010, 06:53 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 24, 2010, 06:26 PM
I follow a literal interpretation of the Quran (and reject hadith for obvious reasons) - although of course this is still only my own interpretation of the Quran - what category do I fall under - a fake muslim?

Are you asking me? I don't call anyone a fake Muslim. From what I know of you I would say you are like most ordinary Muslims who see Islam through their own humanity and views. You may think you are being a literalist, but I wouldn't class you with the literalists as when I say that I am referring to Salafi types. You are more like the sort of ordinary/modern Muslims who interpret Islam it as you see it - a very personal Islam - nothing wrong with that of course - not too far off from what I did.
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #113 - February 24, 2010, 06:57 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 24, 2010, 06:10 PM
What Muhammd preached varied over time and is often contradictory. The literalists are just as selective as the Sufis or the moderates etc...

I think it is useless to try and prove there is a true Islam. In fact it worries me when people do that - they do that a lot on FFI - as it is often so they can justify their hatred or bigoted agenda. They end up endlessly trying to convince an ordinary Muslim that real Islam is not the Islam he believes in (and often accusing him of Taqiyya)

As far as I'm concerned there is no true/real Islam - only many versions of Islam.

After all it is human being themselves that define what they believe. If they believe Islam is such and such then for them that's Islam.

There seems something very wrong about trying to impose a nasty form of Islam on them just so you can say "Aha you see!"

Totally disagree - not sure if its what FFI do, nor whether its fair to bring their name here. There can only be one true version of Islam, and thats the version we all discounted. I could happily have believed in AbuYs version, and done what he does, but I knew I would only be cheating myself for the same reasons I gave in my previous post i.e. consistency across all the islamic literatures as well as historical facts from external sources..

Indeed the literalist version of the quran is the correct one, there is no room for mental gymnastics - Allah is mubeen. And when he said hit, he means hit. If the prophet said kill them in Sahih hadith, I have no doubt the prophet would not have had a problem with sleying apostates like us.

If I am wrong, then my brain was faulty, and that would also be down to Allah.

And you have said as much before Hassan, that the literalist version is what you consider to be the true version.

We all know everyone has different versions, but thats not what I'm talking about here.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #114 - February 24, 2010, 07:01 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 24, 2010, 06:53 PM
a very personal Islam - nothing wrong with that of course - not too far off from what I did.

Yep, similar to what I did, but I was never comfortable in doing it and at a subconscious level I knew I was doing wrong according to Islam. The guilt I felt was awful.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #115 - February 24, 2010, 07:02 PM

Quote from: IsLame on February 24, 2010, 06:57 PM
I could happily have believed in AbuYs version

Really? That God said a man can hit his wife? That unbelievers will burn in Hell eternally?

I cannot find any version of Islam that I can believe in.

Though most of them don't bother me.

Just as I find no version of Christianity I can believe in - but most don't bother me.
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #116 - February 24, 2010, 07:14 PM

''Really? That God said a man can hit his wife? That unbelievers will burn in Hell eternally?''

I do not say that there are not things that do not sit comfortably with me. I know it sounds silly to a non-beleiver, but I have faith in the plan of the Creator of all things. I of course do not beleive that all non-beleivers will go to hell and question whether hell is eternal based on verses of the Quran:

http://abuyunus2.wordpress.com/hell-eternity-and-reason/

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #117 - February 24, 2010, 07:21 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 24, 2010, 07:14 PM
''Really? That God said a man can hit his wife? That unbelievers will burn in Hell eternally?''

I do not say that there are not things that do not sit comfortably with me. I know it sounds silly to a non-beleiver, but I have faith in the plan of the Creator of all things. I of course do not beleive that all non-beleivers will go to hell and question whether hell is eternal based on verses of the Quran:

http://abuyunus2.wordpress.com/hell-eternity-and-reason/

I'm not having a go at you - I have family that I love dearly that believe such things - just saying I cannot believe in them.
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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #118 - February 24, 2010, 07:23 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 24, 2010, 05:36 PM
@ billy AND ALL non-Muslim members here, please answer this question:

Do you believe that what you consider to be the "real" Islam conditions its followers to be cruel bullies? yes/no?

Islamic literalness CAN and DOES lead to literalists being cruel to dissenters and non Muslims.

We can argue about proportions and percentages and degrees, but I don't see what is controversial about that.

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Re: Why do 'some' Muslims/Believers do this?
Reply #119 - February 24, 2010, 07:35 PM

@ billy

I remember showing you a post ofmine quoting Medinan verses clearly stating that there's no problem with being nice and respectful towards non-Muslims as long as they're not persecuting Muslims and driving them out of their homes.. instead of commenting on the verses, you simply dismissed my post as being inconsistent with mainstream Islam... it probably is but I don't see why I shouldn't follow these verses even if mainstream Islam doesn't follow them.

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