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 Topic: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?

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  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #60 - February 27, 2010, 11:52 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 27, 2010, 12:29 AM
    Exactly - its not the mosques that are converted houses where a bunch of muslims pop in jummah on the their lunch breaks that pose the problem.  Its the well funded and organised mosques that have a separate book dept, lectures and muslim youth camps that wield he long term largest culturalist influence over the greater in number small & inconsequential mosques.

    The finance is targeted and has wielded the effect in just one generation.  Just look around the world, or in the UK, and see the speed at which wahhabism is growing - just look at how many pakistani muslims dress in arabic attire and how the culture is rapidly changing amongst those that even come from the Hanafi Madhab - I know because my parents came from this and they also have radicalised from how I remember them in my youth..



    Correctomundo. The 68 wahaabi mosques (and there's probably more, and that doesn't account for the full spread and reach of their institutional funding) have a disproportionate influence because they are intensely ideological and have the largesse and resources of a billionaire sugar daddy spreading this dogma. They are malicious. They advocate outwards and carry out extremist dawah. They make the most noise. Their influence is pernicious. Their influence is malign. They are hateful. They hate everything in Britain that is not 'Islamic' and they hate Muslims who they view as deviants from their dogma. They spew hate and fray the fabric of our society. The mental atmospherics they propound becomes the ante chamber to terrorists and jihadis. They have the finance, they have the larynx to scream the loudest, they have the command and desire to do that.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #61 - February 27, 2010, 11:55 AM
    Quote from: billy on February 27, 2010, 11:48 AM

    They are anti-human. All the most natural human impulses are snuffed out by them - the impulse to independance of mind and thought, the independance of dress, identity, to friendship, the impulse to human interaction, flirtation, creativity, joy, music, dance, love, human curiosity, it is all snuffed out by this anti-human creed, isn't it?

    In George Orwell's 1984, there is a line from the jailer and tormentor of Winston Smith, and he says:

    If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face— forever

    That is wahaabi Islam's vision for humanity, wahaabi Islam's conception of human civilisation, its dream of earthly paradise, of how humankind must be - and it is what billions of dollars have been spent on, and will be spent on in the future to create, all around the world.



    Billy, Wahhabisim just wants to redress our self-centric balance over to that of worhsipping the creator.  "Stamping on the face of humans" is anti-Islam, as it is disrespecting Allah's perfect creation.  Same reason suicide is haram.
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #62 - February 27, 2010, 12:01 PM

    Ah yes, I see - wahaabism makes perfect sense now - its the future  Afro
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #63 - February 27, 2010, 12:06 PM
    Quote from: billy on February 27, 2010, 11:52 AM
    They have the finance, they have the larynx to scream the loudest, they have the command and desire to do that.

    Yep, they've got the spondooleess in the capitalist societies and own the swords in the tribal societies.  In other words, despite the grain of human nature, they have always had the tools and machinery to ensure their imperialist mission was successful against all odds.  

    However greater forces are at play now; oil money will run out and the sword is being attacked by the pen so after the imminent backlash, I live in hope, but not in my lifetime.
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #64 - February 27, 2010, 04:13 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on February 26, 2010, 07:51 PM
    Has nothing to do with your politicians lacking spines, and has everything to do with the Saudis having lots of oil and a good relationship with the UK/US, as well as lucrative military hardware contracts.

    The solution to the problem couldn’t be more obvious could it?
    The West needs to cut its dependency on fossil fuels.

    Problem is that Amy Winehouse is more likely to lay off the smack than west is to stop its "oil habit".

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #65 - February 27, 2010, 05:20 PM
    Am I allowed to invite all of you  to FFI who think fighting fire with fire is a good strategy?

    Cheesy
    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #66 - February 27, 2010, 06:07 PM
    Quote
    Am I allowed to invite all of you  to FFI who think fighting fire with fire is a good strategy?

    Cheesy   

    ah Ha!., That is your ulterior motive motive in blasting people at CEMB??  I read same words some where from friends of CEMBFFI..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #67 - February 27, 2010, 08:01 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on February 27, 2010, 04:13 PM
    The solution to the problem couldn’t be more obvious could it?
    The West needs to cut its dependency on fossil fuels.

    Problem is that Amy Winehouse is more likely to lay off the smack than west is to stop its "oil habit".


    Well, she's more a cokehead and a drunk than a heroin junkie, so maybe there's hope for alternative energy yet!  Afro
    fuck you
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #68 - February 28, 2010, 03:55 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 27, 2010, 06:07 PM
    ah Ha!., That is your ulterior motive motive in blasting people at CEMB??  I read same words some where from friends of CEMBFFI..


    lol. That was debunker inviting Muslims to shift from FFI to CEMB.
    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #69 - February 28, 2010, 07:37 AM
    Quote
    lol. That was debunker   inviting Muslims to shift from FFI to CEMB.

    Ops., was it from that guy?  HA! then used wrong word in my post'

    Quote
    ah Ha!., That is your ulterior motive motive in blasting people at CEMB??  I read same words some where from friends of CEMBFFI..


    That should be  "FILTH of CEMBFFI"
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #70 - February 28, 2010, 08:13 AM
    You are so crazy YeeZeeVee. Keep on a truckin'.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #71 - March 01, 2010, 08:10 PM
    Quote from: billy on February 26, 2010, 11:37 PM
    Hassan1 - you are incorrigible.

    68 mosques (an estimate) is sixty eight too many. They are large and well resourced and loud.


    The article suggests that the mosques are small break-aways. I doubt that they are particularly well funded.

    Quote
    Are you contesting that Saudi funded wahaabi Islam asserts a malignant effect on the social fabric of Britain?


    It may very well do. I just think that said effect is overstated, considerably. Furthermore, if by 'malignant', you are referring to violent extremism, I think you'll find that the Saudi top-brass vehemently condemn acts of terrorism.

    Quote
    Are you contesting that they have access to funds to propagate their militancy and intolerance that dwarfs every other school of Islam?


    The access exists, most certainly. But whether said access has caused an intolerant form of Islam to become prevalent in the UK is questionable, at best.  As I have already stated previously, the vast majority of Muslims in the UK are Hanafi; furthermore, I would argue that there are probably more active TJs, Hizbis etc than there are Salafis. Although this is just my own speculation.

    And just from personal experience. I have attended 2 major universities in the UK and have been involved, to some degree, in 2 ISocs.Both ISoc's were Madhabi oriented. The local mosques, are madhabi. The majority of Imams I've met in this country, are madhabi.
    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #72 - March 01, 2010, 09:12 PM
    Quote
    The article suggests that the mosques are small break-aways. I doubt that they are particularly well funded.

     

    So basically, you just doubt this, and doubt that, and don't think this, and don't think that, and hope for the best? Also, you object to people mentioning the elephant in the room, right?  Or is it more a case of you trying to not deny that the elephant is in the room, but that it is not as big as everyone says, so everybody should just move along and not talk about it at all. I see.

    Tonight on Channel 4 there was an hour long expose of the Saudi funded East London Mosque's role in the Islamist vanguard organisation Islamic Forum of Europe which is infiltrating Tower Hamlets council and spreading a poisonous puritanical sectarian caliphate politics in east London. Their assets are strategic, powerful and big - they are NOT just 'small break aways'

    Just bury your head in the sand and it'll all go away, right?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #73 - March 01, 2010, 09:14 PM
    Quote from: billy on March 01, 2010, 09:12 PM


    So basically, you just doubt this, and doubt that, and don't think this, and don't think that, and hope for the best? Also, you object to people mentioning the elephant in the room, right?  Or is it more a case of you trying to not deny that the elephant is in the room, but that it is not as big as everyone says, so everybody should just move along and not talk about it at all. I see.

    Tonight on Channel 4 there was an hour long expose of the Saudi funded East London Mosque's role in the Islamist vanguard organisation Islamic Forum of Europe which is infiltrating Tower Hamlets council and spreading a poisonous puritanical sectarian caliphate politics in east London. Their assets are strategic, powerful and big - they are NOT just 'small break aways'

    Just bury your head in the sand and it'll all go away, right?


    He's well aware of the reality. Denying and down-playing it is part and parcel of the Islamist agenda.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #74 - March 01, 2010, 09:20 PM
    Quote from: Hassan1 on March 01, 2010, 08:10 PM
    And just from personal experience. I have attended 2 major universities in the UK and have been involved, to some degree, in 2 ISocs.Both ISoc's were Madhabi oriented. The local mosques, are madhabi. The majority of Imams I've met in this country, are madhabi.

    These mosques may not have been salafi in their outlook, but does the fact that these mosques were madhabi mean that their imams were au fait with Western Politics/culture? What was their attitude towards kaffirs? Did they have a sectarian outlook? (Before you answer this question, remember that I and many others here were madhabi)
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #75 - March 01, 2010, 09:20 PM
    Quote
    He's well aware of the reality. Denying and down-playing it is part and parcel of the Islamist agenda.


    Yep - he is either a supporter of this fundamentalist ideology and is downplaying it as the Islamists always try to do using sophistry and tu quoque and the No True Scotsman fallacy and all the rest of it, or he is just in denial and feels the need to defend Islam in general because he wants to make the point that not all Muslims follow this dogma. Well, we know that, and we say it all the time - but that doesn't mean we shouldn't shine a light on it and confront it.

    If its the latter, I understand from a human point of view. And I'm happy to make that point over and over again. If its the former, well, he's a snake-oil salesman.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #76 - March 01, 2010, 10:34 PM
    Hey dudes,

    some interesting discussion. In general I don't think mosques are the problem in the spread of radical Islam. I don't agree with the fact that the Saudi government does not let churches to be built in their country, but I don't see how stoping the building of mosques in the UK and other Western countries will help the problem. In Cambridge, where I live, they are currently building a mosque with a £13million budget (raised by the community). It will have a library, restaurant etc. and will be a good place for young Muslims to hang out. I'm not sure yet but I think (and hope) that Abdul Hakim Murad (Lecturer in Islamic studies at Cambridge University and all round good-guy) will be the main Imam at the mosque. I have hopes that mosques like these with moderate, highly intelligent, and well educated Imams will be the future (although this may  be wishful thinking).

    I was also wondering if those of you who feel that 'fire should be fought with fire' have actually ever done anything about it rather than just talk on internet forums? For example has anyone written to their local MPs/senators etc.

    In general I think the major problems are in countries like Iran being ruled by tyrannical regimes. As one or two have mentioned, it's up to Muslims themselves to solve these problems. I for one can't wait till the next generation of Muslims take over - I just hope I'm alive to witness change. I'm only 30 so maybe (again perhaps wishful thinking). But I don't really see what more we can do than offer our moral support?
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #77 - March 01, 2010, 10:52 PM
    I hope so, it'll be better that what we have at present at least, even if it does prolong its downfall.  Problem is that education itself does not cure the rot - remember the Glasgow airport bomb was done by an Iraqi doctor as well as many other terrorist attacks.

    btw where did the community find £13m, quite a bit for community donations alone?
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #78 - March 01, 2010, 10:58 PM
    Yes you're probably right - I'm sure there are some very wealthy donors chipping in.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #79 - March 01, 2010, 11:01 PM
    *cough* saudi/wahhabi donations *splutter*
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #80 - March 02, 2010, 09:28 AM
    To ask whether the pen or the sword are stronger is to play into the hands of the sword. The pen is not in the business of flashing its strength, its concern is with the truth, whether the rest of the world follows it or not.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #81 - March 02, 2010, 12:02 PM
    I love Z10.
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #82 - March 02, 2010, 12:45 PM
    Quote from: z10 on March 02, 2010, 09:28 AM
    To ask whether the pen or the sword are stronger is to play into the hands of the sword. The pen is not in the business of flashing its strength, its concern is with the truth, whether the rest of the world follows it or not.


    Unfortunately, the sword has the ability to silence the pen. To survive, even the pen needs some defending swords around it.
    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #83 - March 02, 2010, 01:09 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 01, 2010, 11:01 PM
    *cough* saudi/wahhabi donations *splutter*


    I'm not sure about that. Info regarding the new mosque can be found here including list of main donors:

    http://www.cambridgemosqueismoving.org.uk/index.php

    You can also make a donation online yourself  Wink
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #84 - March 02, 2010, 01:17 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 02, 2010, 01:09 PM
    I'm not sure about that.

    Neither am I, just speculating..

    Quote
    Info regarding the new mosque can be found here including list of main donors:

    http://www.cambridgemosqueismoving.org.uk/index.php

    You can also make a donation online yourself  Wink

    Its beautiful, in fact I will make a donation - I am just reaching into my pockets now.. bear with me its quite a stretch..uuhhhh.. shucks, spent all my cash on funding the new transsexual wing at my local mosque. Maybe next time, heh?
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  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #85 - March 02, 2010, 01:20 PM
    astaghfirullah
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #86 - March 03, 2010, 03:38 AM
    Quote from: charlesmartel on March 02, 2010, 12:45 PM
    Unfortunately, the sword has the ability to silence the pen. To survive, even the pen needs some defending swords around it.


    Yes but we are talking in abstractions, what does it matter if the pen is silenced? A silent, censored, mutilated, condemned, attacked, villified, antagonised truth is still the truth. No amount of force can change the truth.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #87 - March 03, 2010, 03:41 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 02, 2010, 01:17 PM
    Its beautiful, in fact I will make a donation - I am just reaching into my pockets now.. bear with me its quite a stretch..uuhhhh.. shucks, spent all my cash on funding the new transsexual wing at my local mosque. Maybe next time, heh?


    Grin
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #88 - March 03, 2010, 11:51 AM
    Quote from: billy on March 01, 2010, 09:12 PM


    So basically, you just doubt this, and doubt that, and don't think this, and don't think that, and hope for the best? Also, you object to people mentioning the elephant in the room, right?  Or is it more a case of you trying to not deny that the elephant is in the room, but that it is not as big as everyone says, so everybody should just move along and not talk about it at all. I see.

    Tonight on Channel 4 there was an hour long expose of the Saudi funded East London Mosque's role in the Islamist vanguard organisation Islamic Forum of Europe which is infiltrating Tower Hamlets council and spreading a poisonous puritanical sectarian caliphate politics in east London. Their assets are strategic, powerful and big - they are NOT just 'small break aways'

    Just bury your head in the sand and it'll all go away, right?


    I would say it's more of a small donkey than an elephant. I didn't have a chance to watch the documentary unfortunately, so I'll reserve my judgement until I find a time to do so. That aside, there seems to be some inconsistencies in your statement which require clarification:

    Quote
    puritanical sectarian caliphate politics in east London


    As far as I am aware, Saudi funded projects would promote their brand of 'wahabism' which, as you rightly pointed out, is puritanical. However, the caliphate/political element of Islam is usually ignored by the wahabis in this country. This is a source of constant emnity and mistrust between wahabis/salafis and various caliphate groups.
    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
     Reply #89 - March 03, 2010, 11:57 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 01, 2010, 09:20 PM
    These mosques may not have been salafi in their outlook, but does the fact that these mosques were madhabi mean that their imams were au fait with Western Politics/culture? What was their attitude towards kaffirs? Did they have a sectarian outlook? (Before you answer this question, remember that I and many others here were madhabi)


    The fact that you and many others were madhabi will have no influence on what I say now, or in the future. The majority of mosques in this country are of the barelwi variety; this is particularly the case in cities where there is a large Pakistani community. These barweli moisques are, for the most part, very traditional. They avoid politics and focus much of their energy on spreading Muhammad (pbuh) ideology. Any 'hatred' for the kuffar certainly does not manifest itself in their khutbahs.

    I would agree that these mosques do, generally, have a sectarian outlook. They dislike the Shia and the Wahabi - this dislike is often reciprocal.
    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
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