Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?

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- billy
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Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
Reply #90 - March 03, 2010, 11:59 AM

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I would say it's more of a small donkey than an elephant. I didn't have a chance to watch the documentary unfortunately, so I'll reserve my judgement until I find a time to do so.

So you don't know what you're talking about, but you think its only a small donkey, not an elephant. Great. As if the size of the animal makes a difference - its the fact that its stinking out the room, shittting on the carpet, destroying the social fabric of our society, spreading hatred and supremacism, and leading at one end of the continuum to terrorism and innocent children, women and men dying.

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As far as I am aware, Saudi funded projects would promote their brand of 'wahabism' which, as you rightly pointed out, is puritanical. However, the caliphate/political element of Islam is usually ignored by the wahabis in this country. This is a source of constant emnity and mistrust between wahabis/salafis and various caliphate groups.

Join the dots - wherever Saudi money goes - extremists of all brands and stripes follow. The East London mosque was funded by Saudis. They gave it its logistical and organisational prominence. Jamaat-e-Islami and other 'Khalifa' types congregate together, regardless of these trifling 'ideological' differences. In the here and now, there are synergies and overlaps between them.

Look at it this way, to use another image. Many different species of flies are attracted to the same piece of dog crap.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- Hassan1
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Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
Reply #91 - March 03, 2010, 12:04 PM

Quote from: billy on March 01, 2010, 09:20 PM
Yep - he is either a supporter of this fundamentalist ideology and is downplaying it as the Islamists always try to do using sophistry and tu quoque and the No True Scotsman fallacy and all the rest of it, or he is just in denial and feels the need to defend Islam in general because he wants to make the point that not all Muslims follow this dogma. Well, we know that, and we say it all the time - but that doesn't mean we shouldn't shine a light on it and confront it.

If its the latter, I understand from a human point of view. And I'm happy to make that point over and over again. If its the former, well, he's a snake-oil salesman.

Are snake-oil salesman notoriously untrustworthy? My point of view, as I have already elaborated on, is thus: whilst saudi money may have some influence over the Islamic landscape in the UK, it's impact is overstated considerably. Many non-muslims, such as yourself, provide sensationalist analyses of UK Muslim politics because it is far more exciting than the dull reality. I do not blame you for this as most people enjoy intrigue.

...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
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Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
Reply #92 - March 03, 2010, 12:07 PM

Quote from: billy on March 03, 2010, 11:59 AM
So you don't know what you're talking about, but you think its only a small donkey, not an elephant. Great. As if the size of the animal makes a difference - its the fact that its stinking out the room, shittting on the carpet, destroying the social fabric of our society, spreading hatred and supremacism, and leading at one end of the continuum to terrorism and innocent children, women and men dying.

If you bothered to read much of the wahabi propoganda, you would see that they vehemently condemn terrorism.

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Join the dots - wherever Saudi money goes - extremists of all brands and stripes follow. The East London mosque was funded by Saudis. They gave it its logistical and organisational prominence. Jamaat-e-Islami and other 'Khalifa' types congregate together, regardless of these trifling 'ideological' differences. In the here and now, there are synergies and overlaps between them.

Synergies? So Saudi money is responsible for the propgation of groups that hate Saudis?

...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
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Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
Reply #93 - March 03, 2010, 12:23 PM

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If you bothered to read much of the wahabi propoganda, you would see that they vehemently condemn terrorism.

Wahaabism creates an atmospherics and mentality and ideology that segues very easily into violent extremism, no matter what they say.

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Synergies? So Saudi money is responsible for the propgation of groups that hate Saudis?

Yes, synergies. Saudi money facilitates the construction of the echo chamber in which disparate Islamic extremists bounce off and grow each other.

You are either too naive, or you in denial, or you are an apologist for them.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- billy
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Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
Reply #94 - March 03, 2010, 12:26 PM

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Are snake-oil salesman notoriously untrustworthy? My point of view, as I have already elaborated on, is thus: whilst saudi money may have some influence over the Islamic landscape in the UK, it's impact is overstated considerably. Many non-muslims, such as yourself, provide sensationalist analyses of UK Muslim politics because it is far more exciting than the dull reality. I do not blame you for this as most people enjoy intrigue.

Your condescension is as clumsy and useless as your analysis.

Frankly, its because of denialists / apologists like you that people found it very hard to get to grip with the dynamics of extremism within the British Muslim community over the last twenty years. Thankfully, people are increasingly clear sighted about this issue now.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- Hassan1
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Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
Reply #95 - March 03, 2010, 10:36 PM

Quote from: billy on March 03, 2010, 12:23 PM
Wahaabism creates an atmospherics and mentality and ideology that segues very easily into violent extremism, no matter what they say.

I disagree. Wahabis tend to hold 'their' scholars in very high regard; if ibn Baz or Albani say that terrorism is unislamic, then there is very little doctrinal wiggle room - the wahabis will fall into line. This was actually alluded to in the article you posted earlier.

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Yes, synergies. Saudi money facilitates the construction of the echo chamber in which disparate Islamic extremists bounce off and grow each other.

This is a flawed line of reasoning. Do extremists bounce ideas off one another in mosuqes that aren't funded by Saudis? Furthermore, would East London Mosque have been significantly different had it not been for Saudi influence? It's hard to say, tbh.

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Your condescension is as clumsy and useless as your analysis.

My apologies if I offended you.

...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
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Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
Reply #96 - March 03, 2010, 11:22 PM

Hassan1 - you are making good progress. From 'its not a problem' and 'Saudis don't contribute to any extremist factionalisation' within British Islam, all in the space of a few pages, you not only accept its a problem, you even think its a small donkey in the room - albeit maintaining that its all just terrible hype. Nevertheless, the sophistry and denial-ism remains, but I am a generally positive man, hopefully you can move your head a few inches futher out of the ground at some stage.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- deusvult
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Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
Reply #97 - March 04, 2010, 03:53 AM

Just got done reading Ghost Wars by Steve Coll . Saudi Arabian money is one of the major causes of all the hurt in Afghanistan and a lot of the bu***** around the world.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
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- Hassan1
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Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
Reply #98 - March 04, 2010, 03:13 PM

Quote from: billy on March 03, 2010, 11:22 PM
Hassan1 - you are making good progress. From 'its not a problem' and 'Saudis don't contribute to any extremist factionalisation' within British Islam, all in the space of a few pages, you not only accept its a problem, you even think its a small donkey in the room - albeit maintaining that its all just terrible hype. Nevertheless, the sophistry and denial-ism remains, but I am a generally positive man, hopefully you can move your head a few inches futher out of the ground at some stage.

Without wishing to elongate this discussion any more than needs be, I do believe that my stance on the matter has remained more or less consistent. I started by saying that Saudi influence is overstated, and that is still my view. Also, you're reading far too much into my 'small donkey' comment, which was intended to provide a brief moment of levity into the discussion.

...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
- billy
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Re: Fighting fire with fire, or the pen is mightier than the sword?
Reply #99 - March 04, 2010, 04:53 PM

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Also, you're reading far too much into my 'small donkey' comment, which was intended to provide a brief moment of levity into the discussion.

As are my references to it.

I'm glad you're not in complete denial like many Muslims are.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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