What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #60 - March 04, 2010, 10:06 PM

Another reason which I have heard from at least one muslim is that they trust the word of Muhammad. So now the question that begs is whether the belief is actually in God as an entity or are they trusting the word of Muhammad?
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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #61 - March 04, 2010, 10:27 PM

I got the following quote from a book review on Amazon:-

Quote
"any intellectually honest christian/jew/muslim/bahai/hindu will admit to you that God is not something you reach by reasoning or logic; rather, it is the process of an existential, Kierkegaardian leap of faith in something beyond and above one's self."

This statement is made by a theist and it's a thoroughly honest statement. I think when someone makes this statement, then pursuing the discussion further is futile. The Kierkegaard leap can be made toward any faith and says absolutely nothing about the truth claim.
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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #62 - March 04, 2010, 10:37 PM

Quote from: Kenan on March 04, 2010, 09:45 PM
Deeply flawed argument imho - see my post above.
Precisely because!
Because we want to be truly moral.

Or a singular/overarching principle from which truth, ethics, morality etc. can be derived, what calls them forth, or something, is more how I think it's supposed to go. Many things could become 'god' in that respect.

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #63 - March 04, 2010, 10:51 PM

Quote from: Kenan on March 04, 2010, 09:45 PM
Because we want to be truly moral.

+1

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #64 - March 04, 2010, 11:08 PM

Watched the four horsemen vdeo with dennett...etc. and a question similar to this came out. I'll try find it. For me personally I am technically agnostic but I'm like 99% sure there is no supernatural deity or creator. Most powerful argument against my atheism is probably how everything in the universe is so fine-tuned and why the laws of gravity are the way they are and so on. What I'm implying by this is why is the configuration of the universe is the way it is. I mean it does not necessarily imply there has to be a god but it still deserves an answer i think. Can't think of much

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #65 - March 04, 2010, 11:20 PM

Yep, I remember the this topic in the discussion amonst the 4 horseman- I think they were examining what the most powerful arguments were against atheism, and I think it may have been dawkins who came up with the precise figures about how finely & precariously balanced the earth 'system' was and if it was just say 0.001% out, we would all revert back to space dust.

Its a strong argument that muslims rarely use, they come up with the usual circular claptrap.

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #66 - March 04, 2010, 11:28 PM

Quote from: IsLame on March 04, 2010, 11:20 PM
Yep, I remember the this topic in the discussion amonst the 4 horseman- I think they were examining what the most powerful arguments were against atheism, and I think it may have been dawkins who came up with the precise figures about how finely & precariously balanced the earth 'system' was and if it was just say 0.001% out, we would all revert back to space dust.

Its a strong argument that muslims rarely use, they come up with the usual circular claptrap.

Well all of the apologists of the Abrahamic god have been putting forward more or less the same arguments for over 1200 years. Whereas the emergence of philosophy and science has been making the concept of such a deity more and more unlikely. Who knows maybe in the future some new evidence will be discovered which favours the idea of a god. It's up to the theist to prove the existence of their god, not us to disprove it.

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #67 - March 04, 2010, 11:32 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on March 04, 2010, 08:39 PM
Doesn't do anything to change my point. Sure, there is a possibility that the universe is eternal but there is no evidence that it is. So if you are going to assert that it is then you have no more grounds for doing that than a theist has for asserting an eternal creator.

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on March 04, 2010, 08:42 PM
Osmanthus has a point here, the theist could just as easily justify an eternal creator who exists necessarily and needs no explanation for his own existence but explains the existence of everything else.

I see a huge difference; before someone asserts the eternity of something, it must be shown to exist at least. Moreover, the law of conservation of energy/matter also suggests the eternity of the universe.

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #68 - March 04, 2010, 11:46 PM

Quote from: charlesmartel on March 04, 2010, 11:32 PM
I see a huge difference; before someone asserts the eternity of something, it must be shown to exist at least. Moreover, the law of conservation of energy/matter also suggests the eternity of the universe.

Good point, also once Osmanthus argument is occam razored, he's left with a choice of an eternal universe or an eternal God. For what reason are we adding this invisible unknown into the equation?

At its best, it still only strengthens our argument that atheism is less flawed than theism..

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #69 - March 05, 2010, 07:02 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on March 04, 2010, 08:39 PM
Doesn't do anything to change my point. Sure, there is a possibility that the universe is eternal but there is no evidence that it is. So if you are going to assert that it is then you have no more grounds for doing that than a theist has for asserting an eternal creator.

Not really....since I'd be asserting nothing. I'd be asserting that I dont know...and neither does anyone else I am aware of.
This is the problem with the religious...They demand the person not making a positive claim to know everything in the universe, in order to dismiss their positive claim. That's just silly.
Hell, I've even pointed out before that it would be impossible for a god to know everything in the universe ( http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8533.msg212319#msg212319 ).

I also did not suppose the the universe was eternal. There could be many universes.
The only thing close to a claim I'm supposing is that the universe is natural, which is a more reasonable claim than it came from magic. Since there is no evidence what so ever for magic.

So again, where did everything come from? I dont know. I'm not making the claim that I do.
If you are going to make the claim that it is because of so-and-so, you need to back it up. This should apply the same for scientists and 'prophets'.

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #70 - March 05, 2010, 07:11 AM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on March 04, 2010, 08:36 PM
they can also state that the universe came into existence (big bang) hence must be contingent upon something that necessarily exists.

Sure. Something.
the leap from Something to A thinking conscious being who has always existed and creates stuff using magic, is quite a leap from something , so again, it is in no way an argument against atheism.

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superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #71 - March 05, 2010, 07:15 AM

Quote from: Heyjustlooking on March 04, 2010, 11:08 PM
What I'm implying by this is why is the configuration of the universe is the way it is. I mean it does not necessarily imply there has to be a god but it still deserves an answer i think.

Because. If it did not turn out exactly this way....it would have been something else, and maybe crazy energy people who live on a world made of electrons and eat gravity would be asking.....why is the configuration of the universe is the way it is? Or maybe nothing at all. Its just....because.

You exist because of the way the universe is, the universe does not exist the way it does so that you can exist

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #72 - March 05, 2010, 07:26 AM

Agnosticism, in my view, is the result of unwillingness to let go of the hangover of beliefs completely.

Actually, if we are ready to define God as something other than a creator God (it is not something new!!), most of the logical problems are solved. "Brahman" as a concept is wide enough to incorporate everything within its ambit. The concept is known today as Pantheism.

I don't have any problems with a non creator God which is ever evolving. But then the word "God" itself becomes redundant; we can simply say "existence", and it would be perfect ok. Ancient Indians already christened it as "Brahman".

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #73 - March 05, 2010, 08:37 AM

Quote from: Homer on March 05, 2010, 07:11 AM
Sure. Something.
the leap from Something to A thinking conscious being who has always existed and creates stuff using magic, is quite a leap from something , so again, it is in no way an argument against atheism.

Absolutely, I agree with you here. I'm just stating what the theologian would point out. The theologian would also say that this being is a personal being, hence a theist god who has created out of his will and because he can.

But upon closer inspection of these statements you can very clearly see that they are assertions rather than evidence of any kind. The other reason why a god is posited as a necessary being upon which everything is contingent, is to stop the possibility of an infinite regress of events of the same kind. There really is no reason for an atheist to deny the possibility of an infinite regress. When I was muslim and learning islamic theology, we were told that an infinite regress is a logical absurdity.
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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #74 - March 05, 2010, 08:42 AM

Convert or Die!!!

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #75 - March 05, 2010, 09:02 AM

Am I the only one who thought that the whole there is an effect so there must be a cause before it was only a product of our inability to perceive time as anything but linear? In theory in black holes effects could proceed causes. Once that enters the pictures the nice and neat there is an effect therefor there must be a cause to happen before it goes out the window.

Or am I missing something?

Similarly I never bought the whole " The universe is soooooo unique there must be a God!" accompanied by lots of statistics showing some crazy 1 in a trillion chance that the universe turned out the way it did. I always thought this was apophenia like blowing on dice before rolling them or picking birthday numbers for lotto tickets. Sometimes a one in a million chance will happen and when it does, it happen because there was 999,999,999 chances for it to go wrong and it didn't. If I win the lotto is that proof of God?

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #76 - March 05, 2010, 09:30 AM

Quote from: charlesmartel on March 05, 2010, 07:26 AM
Agnosticism, in my view, is the result of unwillingness to let go of the hangover of beliefs completely.

No, its an acceptance that we dont know everything yet. I am surprised by your comment, as you claim to be a pantheist, which is not that far from deism. Hence I propose using a certain set of definitions, that you are an agnostic too.

I have completely abandoned any faith in Islam because I realise its manmade. However that does not mean I have abandoned all concepts related to a first cause, just because it is often seen as the antithisis to theism or as a knee-jerk reaction to faith, which is what I feel some may be doing. Before you contest this post, please be aware I dont accept the revised defintion of atheism vis-a-vis Dawkins.

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #77 - March 05, 2010, 09:35 AM

Quote from: charlesmartel on March 04, 2010, 11:32 PM
I see a huge difference; before someone asserts the eternity of something, it must be shown to exist at least. Moreover, the law of conservation of energy/matter also suggests the eternity of the universe.

Not at all. First, if all you are doing is asserting you do not require evidence. That is why it is called an assertion rather than a fact. Second, I am not necessarily arguing that a deity per se is as plausible as the universe. My point is that asserting the universe is eternal is no more or less valid than a theist asserting that their favourite deity is eternal since they are both just assertions. Third, conservation of energy (which is not at all the same as conservation of matter) wont get you off the hook because you're still stuck with explaining how it got there so it could be conserved. "Eternal" is just another cop out for sticky situations. Theists do it all the time.

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #78 - March 05, 2010, 10:30 AM

Look, when a theist posits a god as an explanation or first cause for the universe, the atheist usually asks where did that god come from? To which the theist would say that god is eternal and has always existed. Now, for the atheist to then say something along the lines of :-

a - why not an infinite regress?

b - who created god?

c - why not just stop at the universe itself?

All these would sound absurd to the theist simply because the theist could say using occams razor that:-

a - it's easier to posit a god as the ground for the rest of the causes and be done with infinite regress.

b - the question itself is silly because god's existence is necessary not contingent like ours, by definition, that term "god" contains certain attributes defined for it, one of which is necessary existence.

c - the universe exists and needs an explanation and positing god for the theist satisfies that explanation, there is no need to then wonder who created god? All the theist is concerned about is a plausible explanation for the universe, everything within it and their own existence, so speculating about god's existence would not bother them.
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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #79 - March 05, 2010, 10:49 AM

Quote from: IsLame on March 04, 2010, 11:20 PM
Yep, I remember the this topic in the discussion amonst the 4 horseman- I think they were examining what the most powerful arguments were against atheism, and I think it may have been dawkins who came up with the precise figures about how finely & precariously balanced the earth 'system' was and if it was just say 0.001% out, we would all revert back to space dust.

Its a strong argument that muslims rarely use, they come up with the usual circular claptrap.

Actually it's not just gravity and it's not just the earth 'system' as you put it. There are about 20 fundamental constants which if any of them were off by a tiny fraction the universe would be incompatible with life. For example if the charge of the electron was different by a very tiny fraction stars would not be able shine. In addition if the energies of the big bang were off by a tiny tiny fraction (i.e. we are talking about 100 decimal places - yes incredible!) there would be no life in the universe. These are just 2 examples but there are many more. There is no way for it all to just have been a coincidence. There is more chance of playing the national lottery a hundered times and winning the jackpot every single time.

The problem I find when using these arguments is people usually come back with 'multiverse' arguments. This is rather annoying since there is no way to prove/disprove multiverse theories (and indeed many prominent physicists argue they are not real theories of science since they can not be tested). However since there are some really intelligent physicists who are proponents of such theories, they also seem to have become popular with Atheists when arguing for the non-existence of God. Even though it is an incredibly weak argument on their side, they seem to be satisfied with it. I usually just have to swallow this since there is nothing I can say that can disprove multiverse theories - and I can not claim they are unscientific since some of my claims themselves are non scientific (i.e. that God created the universe from nothing).

The argument that I like to use often and which I usually do not get any response to, is the beauty of the laws of physics. The laws of physics have an undeniable awesome mathematical beauty and elegance at their heart. They appear to be symmetric throughout the universe and one day physicists hope to have a single unified theory of the universe (i.e. a theory of everything) if they can mangae to combine quantum mechanics and general realtivity into a single theoretical framework (the two front runners are string/M-theory and quantum loop gravity). This elegance in the laws of nature often leaves physicists awe-struck and they stumble around like little children trying to uncover more of their beauty. I for one can not ignore this. The laws of nature must have had some intelligent designer behind it - whether you call it God some kind of other 'agent'. From this point of veiw Agnosticism makes some sense to me whereas Atheism seems a little desperate.

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #80 - March 05, 2010, 11:40 AM

I agree, it is all so finely tuned that if we were the purpose of the universe, it would appear that everything has been made specially for us. But I dont think we are, nor do I think the universe cares if we existed or not (particularly when you consider the number of comets its has sent down to plunder onto our poor planet resulting in a catacylsmic mass extinction 3 times in our earths history ).

Out of the conservative estimate of 10 million billion planets on this universe, I guess laws of probablility would dictate that at least one planet would have all of these specific conditions to create life at some point of their 12 billion year history. One would have the specific properties to be made of solid diamond. One would have the properties of another form of existence (be that life or something else) and so on so forth. Unfortunately we have only seen an infinitessimely small portion of the universe so we simply dont know much outside of our own galaxy yet.

I hope you can see where I am going with this. If we take our own sense of importance out of the equation, do you think it nullifies the argument somewhat? I think it does, but perhaps as an agnostic theist you see it differently.

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #81 - March 05, 2010, 11:52 AM

Quote from: IsLame on March 05, 2010, 09:30 AM
No, its an acceptance that we dont know everything yet. I am surprised by your comment, as you claim to be a pantheist, which is not that far from deism. Hence I propose using a certain set of definitions, that you are an agnostic too.

Let me clarify it again: when I speak of God, I almost always imply a creator God as that is the most widely accepted definition. You are right that we do not know everything; in fact we know almost nothing compared to the knowledge still waiting to be discovered. But I deny a creator God, I do so because the existence of such a God is not logical.

Quote
I have completely abandoned any faith in Islam because I realise its manmade. However that does not mean I have abandoned all concepts related to a first cause, just because it is often seen as the antithisis to theism or as a knee-jerk reaction to faith, which is what I feel some may be doing. Before you contest this post, please be aware I dont accept the revised defintion of atheism vis-a-vis Dawkins.

I did not allude to any Islamic belief when I talked of the hangover. The belief in a creator God transcends any particular religion. I prefer to start from a position of zero belief (at least theoretically or consciously).

Unless the law of conservation of energy is proven to be wrong, I find it difficult to entertain the idea of a first cause.

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #82 - March 05, 2010, 12:57 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on March 05, 2010, 09:35 AM
Not at all. First, if all you are doing is asserting you do not require evidence. That is why it is called an assertion rather than a fact. Second, I am not necessarily arguing that a deity per se is as plausible as the universe. My point is that asserting the universe is eternal is no more or less valid than a theist asserting that their favourite deity is eternal since they are both just assertions. Third, conservation of energy (which is not at all the same as conservation of matter) wont get you off the hook because you're still stuck with explaining how it got there so it could be conserved. "Eternal" is just another cop out for sticky situations. Theists do it all the time.

One implication of this law is that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, or, in other words, it is already conserved. Therefore, the answer to the question "how it got there" is simple: it was already there.

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #83 - March 05, 2010, 01:43 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on March 05, 2010, 09:35 AM
My point is that asserting the universe is eternal is no more or less valid than a theist asserting that their favourite deity is eternal since they are both just assertions.

I dont think many atheists bear issue with the fact that a theist God is eternal. If they are prepared to accept an omnipotent & omnicient creator, then this is not even a secondary issue.

Atheists bear issue with the fact that you need to posit this type of creator in the first place.

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #84 - March 05, 2010, 02:25 PM

Quote from: IsLame on March 05, 2010, 01:43 PM
I dont think many atheists bear issue with the fact that a theist God is eternal. They bear issue with the fact that you need to posit a creator in the first place.

Righto.

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #85 - March 05, 2010, 02:28 PM

Quote from: IsLame on March 03, 2010, 08:45 PM
Give me some options for a poll that I want to start off.

So what do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?

Consciousness, and the ability of a humans moving out of Africa.

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #86 - March 05, 2010, 02:30 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on March 03, 2010, 09:11 PM
That we are here at all. It doesn't make sense, in a logical fashion, since it contradicts what we feel about cause and effect. In other words, with or without a deity the universe "shouldn't" exist at all. The apparent fact that it does exist proves that our notions of cause and effect are not reliable in some circumstances, which means that arguments such as "any deity would also need a creator" are not necessarily valid.

Quote from: osmanthus on March 03, 2010, 11:05 PM
True, to a point. However regardless of the cause it will still be something that "logically" we will feel does not resolve the problem of infinite regression.
See above.

The total energy of the universe is zero, and it does not violate conservation of energy.

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #87 - March 05, 2010, 02:34 PM

Quote from: charlesmartel on March 05, 2010, 11:52 AM
I did not allude to any Islamic belief when I talked of the hangover. The belief in a creator God transcends any particular religion. I prefer to start from a position of zero belief (at least theoretically or consciously).

I also like to take the position from the stance that the universe exists and we are here to discuss the issue. I think it makes it easier to start from that point. One can then move onto the existence of god etc, then move onto religion. I feel that there is a wrong headedness in trying to pursue the argument from the assumption that the Quran is the word of god, simply because it's assuming the very thing that is supposed to be proved.
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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #88 - March 05, 2010, 02:35 PM

Quote from: IsLame on March 03, 2010, 11:10 PM
Nope, an eternal universe does not necessarily require a cause, it just is.

Then one can state neither does a deity. however, I have solved this problem with the total energy of the universe being ZERO. particles/antiparticles etc.

Or you can just use the argument of actual infinite's not existing at all.

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Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
Reply #89 - March 05, 2010, 02:42 PM

Quote from: _truth_ on March 04, 2010, 06:57 PM
"The chances of Abiogenesis has a very small infinitesimal chance of occurring. It is very unlikely that it did happen therefore God created us"

The Uri-Millar experiment disproves this argument.

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