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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Niqabs/Burqa should be..
  • Allowed - 12 (23.5%)
  • Partially Banned - 23 (45.1%)
  • Banned - 16 (31.4%)
  • Total Voters: 51

 Topic: Ban Niqab?

 (Read 37065 times)
  • 12 3 ... 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Ban Niqab?
     OP - March 09, 2010, 05:05 AM
    Since we've discussed this topic lots before, I was just curious as to where the members of COEM stand in regards to the issue.

    Option 1 is simply to allow people total freedom to wear this religous garment.
    Option 2 is for a partial ban in specific government or private areas, while allowing it elsewhere.
    Option 3 is for a total ban outside private residences or clubs etc.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #1 - March 09, 2010, 05:10 AM
    I personally would love a total ban just to stick it to musulmans. But my liberal senses tell me to restrain myself and support a partial ban that would disallow it in private and government institutions.

    Also, a total ban is undoable. Police stopping a niqabi woman on the streets and 'forcing' her to remove her veil "or else" will make for some seriously ugly incidents.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #2 - March 09, 2010, 05:18 AM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 09, 2010, 05:05 AM
    Option 2 is for a partial ban in specific government or private areas, while allowing it elsewhere.


    Uh, what does that mean?

    I'm for a ban on niqab/burqua, provided that men are banned from wearing open-toed footwear, and white people banned from having dreadlocks.
    fuck you
  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #3 - March 09, 2010, 05:25 AM
    Quote from: Q-Man on March 09, 2010, 05:18 AM
    Uh, what does that mean?


    It means your mum is a filthy whore!

    Sorry, that was inappropriate.

    I guess it means that specific buildings and institutions *can* refuse to allow entry or hire women wearing niqabs - like hiring teachers or letting niqabis in banks. But it would not be a blanket ban, so a niqabi can walk about in open areas freely.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #4 - March 09, 2010, 05:27 AM
    I am really for the full out ban but you gotta respect idiots wanting to wear that shit on the street. But this stuff really should not be accepted in the public arena, corporate and government.
    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #5 - March 09, 2010, 05:31 AM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 09, 2010, 05:25 AM
    It means your mum is a filthy whore!

    Sorry, that was inappropriate.

    I guess it means that specific buildings and institutions *can* refuse to allow entry or hire women wearing niqabs - like hiring teachers or letting niqabis in banks. But it would not be a blanket ban, so a niqabi can walk about in open areas freely.


    I wouldn't combine public (government/state) institutions and private institutions. A private property owner has the right to let who s/he wants onto their property. The state, however, cannot discriminate according to religion.
    fuck you
  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #6 - March 09, 2010, 05:35 AM
    So for example, would you be for allowing an educational board (ie gov't) to refuse to hire a teacher because of the niqab? Or would you consider that unjust discrimination based on religion?

    For me, a partial ban would cover that and allow both gov't and corps to reject veiled candidates without fear of a lawsuit.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #7 - March 10, 2010, 03:41 PM
    Can mods plz move this to "Women in Islam"  Afro
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #8 - March 10, 2010, 03:55 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 09, 2010, 05:35 AM
    So for example, would you be for allowing an educational board (ie gov't) to refuse to hire a teacher because of the niqab? Or would you consider that unjust discrimination based on religion?


    Tricky one. I'd have to think about it, but this is the test I'd use:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_scrutiny

    Quote
    For me, a partial ban would cover that and allow both gov't and corps to reject veiled candidates without fear of a lawsuit.


    Again, I think there's a difference between the former and the latter.
    fuck you
  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #9 - March 10, 2010, 04:06 PM

    I'm against a total ban, but I think employers should be able to exclude anyone from their workplace who refuses to show their face, certain businesses should be allowed to use their discretion as to whether or not to allow burqa and niqab clad women entrance, banks and other institutions like airports should not allow anyone entrance who has a face covering, and it should be made subject to a debate in parliament about whether forcing any girl under the age of 18 to wear the niqab / burqa is a form of child abuse, and child abuse legislation amended to reflect that. I have seen too many teenage girls  wearing niqab in Birmingham.

    Other than that, I don't see how the state can prevent a woman from wearing a burqa in their home or anywhere else.

    I also say all this reluctantly because when it comes to religious articles I tend to side with the individual and keep where the stress of the state falls lightly - but the burqa / niqab is in a category all of its own, because of the nature of what it is.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #10 - March 10, 2010, 04:10 PM
    I'd much rather Muslim women didn't wear niqab. In addition the Quran does not even state that women should wear Hijab to cover their hair. Of course covering of hair was a cultural thing done by Arab women 1400 years ago and todays concept of 'Hijab' amongst majority of Muslims only come from hadith and tafsir.

    However, I do think that men and women should be allowed to wear what they want where they want - whether it's niqab or a crucifix round their neck.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #11 - March 10, 2010, 04:13 PM
    Quote from: billy on March 10, 2010, 04:06 PM
    it should be made subject to a debate in parliament about whether forcing any girl under the age of 18 to wear the niqab / burqa is a form of child abuse, and child abuse legislation amended to reflect that.


    I think hijab should be included under that too.

    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #12 - March 10, 2010, 04:15 PM
    I'm still thinking a total ban will negatively impact far too many muslim women, but then again maybe it won't. 

    I think certain businesses should totally be allowed to discriminate on someone based on that persons clothing, and the naiqab is an extension of that.

    I'm still not sure, I think we should have a right to wear what we want.  I'm an ex muslim partly because I want to wear what I want, and Islam won't allow me that, so I believe in freedom of choice.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #13 - March 10, 2010, 04:22 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 10, 2010, 04:13 PM
    I think hijab should be included under that too.


    I don't really like the hijab personally, but I don't bracket it with burqa / niqab at all. Burqa is in a different dimension of severity and inhumanity. I might not like the precept of hijab, and it can easily be argued that it is misogynist because it places the stress over mens sexual behaviour on women, but it is not dehumanising and snuffing out of the humanity of a girl / woman in the same way, nor does it prevent the most basic social function of facial recognition occuring.

    With the hijab, we can take that on through argument and persuasion and criticism.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #14 - March 10, 2010, 04:27 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on March 10, 2010, 04:15 PM
    I'm an ex muslim partly because I want to wear what I want, and Islam won't allow me that, so I believe in freedom of choice.


    Try telling that to Queen Rania (of Jordan):

    http://www.topnews.in/light/files/Queen-Rania.jpg

    She actually seems like a very sincere Muslim beleiver to me and rightly argues that a lot of 'todays islamic dress code' does not come from Quran.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #15 - March 10, 2010, 04:29 PM
    It might not come from the quran, but the islam I grew up in was based on a combo of hadiths and the quran, just as it is with the majority of the muslims.

    Also, royalty and common folk never ever live the same lives.  Eeven saudi female royalty get a free pass on their holidays and go buckwild with it.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #16 - March 10, 2010, 04:30 PM

    Phwoar
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  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #17 - March 10, 2010, 04:31 PM
    Should be same as the rules for ski masks.
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #18 - March 10, 2010, 04:31 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 10, 2010, 04:10 PM
    However, I do think that men and women should be allowed to wear what they want where they want - whether it's niqab or a crucifix round their neck.


    A niqab is not comparable to a crucifix round their neck. If a Muslim woman wants to snuff out her humanity and dignity of her own free will in her own home she can do so. But society can and does have a right to refuse to employ women who do so, or allow them to have access to spaces where society deems that facial recognition is the most basic public social contract to be observed.

    A woman can teach children when wearing a crucifix, a woman who wears a burqa doing the same job is not the same.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #19 - March 10, 2010, 04:43 PM
    ''niqab is not comparable to a crucifix round their neck. If a Muslim woman wants to snuff out her humanity and dignity of her own free will in her own home she can do so. But society can and does have a right to refuse to employ women who do so, or allow them to have access to spaces where society deems that facial recognition is the most basic public social contract to be observed.

    A woman can teach children when wearing a crucifix, a woman who wears a burqa doing the same job is not the same.''



    I do agree somewhat. I think employers should have the right to make decisions on a case by case basis without fear of discrimination law-suits. But I am against a total ban - for example if a woman wants to walk about in niqab in the street then she should be allowed to. If someone went round wearing a ski mask in the street he/she may get one or two funny looks but that's about it.

    Should a niqabi be allowed to stroll into a bank? That's a tricky one.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #20 - March 10, 2010, 04:43 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 10, 2010, 04:27 PM
    Try telling that to Queen Rania (of Jordan):

    http://www.topnews.in/light/files/Queen-Rania.jpg

    She actually seems like a very sincere Muslim beleiver to me and rightly argues that a lot of 'todays islamic dress code' does not come from Quran.


    Right, because I'm sure she's a totally ideal musulman.  Roll Eyes

    She's a western woman more than she is a muslim one.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #21 - March 10, 2010, 04:51 PM
    ''She's a western woman more than she is a muslim one.''

    Maybe she's both. Nothing wrong with that.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #22 - March 10, 2010, 04:58 PM
    Anyone know what the current UK law is on niqabi's walking into banks?
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #23 - March 10, 2010, 07:35 PM
    I voted partial ban on niqab. Ban niqabs in places such as government buildings, banks, universities, hospitals, airports and in the workplace. I don't think the hijab should be banned. I don't agree with it and I don't agree with Muslims saying it prevents rape, but hijabs are fine. But niqabs are dehumanizing.
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #24 - March 10, 2010, 10:07 PM
    It was a tough choice, but I voted allowed. I know Muslim women who wear the niqab by choice, and I know others who are forced to wear it. Those who are forced absolutely hate it, and those who choose to wear it are not only happy with it, but would be uncomfortable without it. I am against taking away people's freedoms, and the freedom to cover your face is no different. If there was some way to make it so that women couldn't be forced to wear it, I'd be all for that. But banning the niqab takes away the freedom of those who want to wear it, and a partial ban only further restricts what a woman can do. For instance, if a woman were forced by her husband to wear niqab, but the state says you can't get a driver's license with your face covered, what would happen? Obviously, the husband is not going to back down, so instead now the woman is not allowed to drive. And what about a niqabi with a career as a nurse, one of the few acceptable careers for a Muslim woman? Ban niqab in hospitals, and you've just taken her job away. Or even worse, if you ban niqab in universities, you've taken away her chance at any kind of career.

    CC, I don't understand how you can say hijabs are fine but niqabs are dehumanizing. The act of covering one's head or face is itself not dehumanizing. Being forced to wear either for misogynist reasons (or any reason, for that matter) IS dehumanizing.
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #25 - March 10, 2010, 10:10 PM
    why? is there actually a good argument for this? or just tabloid propaganda?
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #26 - March 10, 2010, 10:11 PM
    @Rational1

    What about a job like a teacher? Would you be for allowing a niqabi to teach elementary kids in Canada?
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #27 - March 10, 2010, 10:13 PM
    Why not, who cares about the canucks? Tongue

    But seriously, I don't see why it's a problem. Huh?
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #28 - March 10, 2010, 10:16 PM
    Quote from: Rational1 on March 10, 2010, 10:13 PM
    Why not, who cares about the canucks? Tongue


     Angry

    Quote
    But seriously, I don't see why it's a problem. Huh?


    Don't you think a masked individual is incompatible with the role of a teacher who has to deal with little kids? Don't you think the lack of facial expression stunts and inhibits the much needed communication between a teacher and her kids?

    What about parents of those children? Do they not have the right to make sure their children are not taught by an individual who would probably make them cry?
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ban Niqab?
     Reply #29 - March 10, 2010, 10:26 PM
    I don't see why a niqabi is any more likely to make a child cry than anyone else. I actually find that assumption a bit insulting. And I do not think a "masked individual" is incompatible. I don't think there would be a complete lack of facial expression. Believe me, I dealt with many niqabi women in Kuwait, and it is very easy to tell what facial expression they have on even with the niqab. Plus, vocal intonation is just as important as facial expression, if not more, so I don't think the kids would be missing out.

    And anyway, Muslim women are not required to cover in front of young children, be it hijab or niqab. I knew some niqabi teachers in Kuwait who taught all day long with their faces uncovered, and I could easily see that happening elsewhere. Sure, there may be some kids who are initially apprehensive about a teacher whose face they cannot see, but the relationship between teacher and student develops strongly and quickly with young children, and I think the kids would get used to it. If nothing else, it would give them exposure to something other than bland white Western culture, and would hopefully spark some educational conversation with the parents.
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
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