Ban Niqab?

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #30 - March 10, 2010, 10:33 PM

I hate the niqab and all that it stands for but I cannot support a full on ban. The main reasons being, that a ban would make women feel as though they and their religion are being attacked and they would hold on to it even tighter. Another thing is, I'm sure there are plenty of women who are forced to wear the niqab or they not permitted to go outside. A ban would just limit and imprison these women even more.

I don't think a woman should be banned from a French class for immigrants, which is what happened in Quebec, right? What's the reason for that? How the hell is she supposed to know any better if she's not allowed to go to class? Ban the niqab in some places but banning students is stupid.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #31 - March 10, 2010, 10:38 PM

Quote from: Iggy
I hate the niqab and all that it stands for but I cannot support a full on ban. The main reasons being, that a ban would make women feel as though they and their religion are being attacked and they would hold on to it even tighter. Another thing is, I'm sure there are plenty of women who are forced to wear the niqab or they not permitted to go outside. A ban would just limit and imprison these women even more.

Exactly.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #32 - March 10, 2010, 10:46 PM

I voted for a partial ban for the same reasons as stated above. Much as I HATE the niqab, it's still a woman's right to wear it and even if she is forced to wear it why penalize her because of it?

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #33 - March 10, 2010, 10:48 PM

Quote from: Rational1 on March 10, 2010, 10:26 PM
I don't see why a niqabi is any more likely to make a child cry than anyone else. I actually find that assumption a bit insulting. And I do not think a "masked individual" is incompatible. I don't think there would be a complete lack of facial expression. Believe me, I dealt with many niqabi women in Kuwait, and it is very easy to tell what facial expression they have on even with the niqab. Plus, vocal intonation is just as important as facial expression, if not more, so I don't think the kids would be missing out..

You dont think something like this could make children cry and dogs bark ?

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #34 - March 10, 2010, 10:58 PM

Quote from: Nour on March 10, 2010, 10:46 PM
I voted for a partial ban for the same reasons as stated above. Much as I HATE the niqab, it's still a woman's right to wear it and even if she is forced to wear it why penalize her because of it?

Yes, this reason too. I forgot about the freedom thing.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #35 - March 10, 2010, 11:00 PM

Quote from: Rational1 on March 10, 2010, 10:26 PM
I don't see why a niqabi is any more likely to make a child cry than anyone else. I actually find that assumption a bit insulting. And I do not think a "masked individual" is incompatible. I don't think there would be a complete lack of facial expression. Believe me, I dealt with many niqabi women in Kuwait, and it is very easy to tell what facial expression they have on even with the niqab. Plus, vocal intonation is just as important as facial expression, if not more, so I don't think the kids would be missing out.

And anyway, Muslim women are not required to cover in front of young children, be it hijab or niqab. I knew some niqabi teachers in Kuwait who taught all day long with their faces uncovered, and I could easily see that happening elsewhere. Sure, there may be some kids who are initially apprehensive about a teacher whose face they cannot see, but the relationship between teacher and student develops strongly and quickly with young children, and I think the kids would get used to it. If nothing else, it would give them exposure to something other than bland white Western culture, and would hopefully spark some educational conversation with the parents.

Well in Britain, nobody can work as a teacher wearing a niqab or burqa. A couple of years back a woman in Dewsbury (European Headquarters of Tableegi Jamaat) married to a Hizb ut Tahrir activist tried to sue the school that sacked her after she started wearing niqab. The tribunal threw her claim out. Very importantly, she was teaching Muslim and non Muslim children, and the parents of the Muslim children objected to her wearing the niqab as much as the kuffar mummy and daddys. A great ruling, that drew the line in the sand from the bginning.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #36 - March 10, 2010, 11:00 PM

That image didn't show up, Paloma.

And I don't see why a partial ban is any better than a full ban. Both would penalize niqabi women, and both would restrict their personal freedoms. As much as we are all affected by what the niqab stands for, discriminating against niqabis would make us no better than the idiots who outlawed gay marriages

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #37 - March 10, 2010, 11:04 PM

Quote from: billy on March 10, 2010, 11:00 PM
Well in Britain, nobody can work as a teacher wearing a niqab or burqa. A couple of years back a woman in Dewsbury (European Headquarters of Tableegi Jamaat) married to a Hizb ut Tahrir activist tried to sue the school that sacked her after she started wearing niqab. The tribunal threw her claim out. Very importantly, she was teaching Muslim and non Muslim children, and the parents of the Muslim children objected to her wearing the niqab as much as the kuffar mummy and daddys. A great ruling, that drew the line in the sand from the bginning.

What is the reasoning for that, and why do you think it's a great ruling? Just because it's not allowed in Britain doesn't make my points any less valid.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #38 - March 10, 2010, 11:18 PM

Quote
What is the reasoning for that, and why do you think it's a great ruling? Just because it's not allowed in Britain doesn't make my points any less valid.

The reasoning was that children could not form a bond with their teacher because her face was obscured and that impacted upon and was therefore detrimental to their education. Facial recognition is one of the most basic of human needs and is fundamental to the public social contract and the tribunal considered that for these reasons no face veil should be allowed. The children themselves were also disturbed by it. I understand it may be different in Kuwait, because that is an Islamic country, but in the UK the culture is different.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #39 - March 10, 2010, 11:33 PM

How would they know whether the kids could form a bond with their teacher if they did not allow it? And the example you cited was of a woman who was already teaching and decided to start wearing niqab, in which case she would have already had a bond with her students. If the children were disturbed by it, it's only because they have been taught to be disturbed by it. Rather than banning the niqab, I think a better solution is to allow the teacher the privacy she needs to be able to remove her niqab in the classroom. I have no doubt those students lost a valuable teacher just because the school had a problem with a scarf over her face. And who says the children should not be exposed to more than one culture?

I dislike the niqab as much as any ex-Muslim here, but I am against restricting people's freedoms. Banning a woman from working or participating in society because of her niqab is more oppressive than forcing her to wear it in the first place.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #40 - March 10, 2010, 11:42 PM

Quote from: Iblis on March 10, 2010, 04:13 PM
I think hijab should be included under that too.

The basis for that being what, exactly? It's just a long dress and a fuckin headscarf. If we open that door does that mean Christian parents could be charged with child abuse if they give their minor children crosses to wear? Jewish parents have DHS called on them when someone sees their kid with a yarmulke? Could Communist parents be prosecuted for having their child wear a hammer and sickle T-shirt, Libertarian parents have their children taken away from them if they make capes for them out of Gadsden Flags?

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #41 - March 10, 2010, 11:44 PM

Quote from: Paloma on March 10, 2010, 10:48 PM
(Clicky for piccy!)

You dont think something like this could make children cry and dogs bark ?

The Angelfire logo? Yeah, sure, I didn't even realize that website still existed. It's like an internet zombie, and zombies are scary.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #42 - March 10, 2010, 11:47 PM

Quote
And the example you cited was of a woman who was already teaching and decided to start wearing niqab, in which case she would have already had a bond with her students.

She was a supply teacher, not the permanent teacher with whom they worked with all the time.

Quote
How would they know whether the kids could form a bond with their teacher if they did not allow it?

Because the children had the agency to express that they didn't feel comfortable with not being able to see the face of their teacher, and their parents expressed their opposition to it, including Muslim parents.

Quote
If the children were disturbed by it, it's only because they have been taught to be disturbed by it. Rather than banning the niqab, I think a better solution is to allow the teacher the privacy she needs to be able to remove her niqab in the classroom. I have no doubt those students lost a valuable teacher just because the school had a problem with a scarf over her face. And who says the children should not be exposed to more than one culture?

The school was a multi-racial, multi-religious school, with Muslim kids sitting next to non Muslim kids. They were already exposed to more than one culture. Multiculturalism doesn't reside in the niqab. And its not got anything to do with being taught to be disturbed by not being able to see the face of a figure of authority. Its a natural human reaction, especially amongst children, to seek out and form a bond and empathy with the face of a person, especially with kids, the face of an elder.

Quote
Banning a woman from working or participating in society because of her niqab is more oppressive than forcing her to wear it in the first place.

I disagree.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #43 - March 10, 2010, 11:48 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on March 10, 2010, 11:42 PM
Christian parents could be charged with child abuse if they give their minor children crosses to wear? Jewish parents have DHS called on them when someone sees their kid with a yarmulke? Could Communist parents be prosecuted for having their child wear a hammer and sickle T-shirt, Libertarian parents have their children taken away from them if they make capes for them out of Gadsden Flags?

Don't you use that tone of voice with me young man! I'm just saying that social services should be aware that hijab and any religious symbol forced on children can often be a form of abuse. I totally support hijab bans in schools and colleges the way the french and turks do because its a religiously and culturally divisive symbol - its more comparable to gang signs, scarfs or tattoos. Parents forcing kids to wear yarmulkes or turbans are very much the same things. They are trying to separate their kids from others.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #44 - March 10, 2010, 11:55 PM

Quote
Don't you use that tone of voice with me young man! I'm just saying that social services should be aware that hijab and any religious symbol forced on children can often be a form of abuse. I totally support hijab bans in schools and colleges the way the french and turks do because its a religiously and culturally divisive symbol - its more comparable to gang signs, scarfs or tattoos. Parents forcing kids to wear yarmulkes or turbans are very much the same things. They are trying to separate their kids from others.

Too extreme mate.

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Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #45 - March 10, 2010, 11:56 PM

Yeah probably.

Anyways, I think this problem would be a lot more simpler if women simply didn't have any rigths!

Sheesh, such uppity people.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #46 - March 11, 2010, 12:08 AM

@billy:

I'm not sure what a supply teacher is. Perhaps it is what we call a substitute teacher? In that case, was she even given a chance to form a bond with her students? I'm interested to know how old the children were that expressed their discomfort with a veiled teacher, whether they were influenced or biased by the attitudes of their parents and other teachers/administration in the school, and how much time they spent with the veiled teacher before deciding they were uncomfortable with her. I do agree that children need and deserve face-to-face interaction with their teachers and other adults of similar relationship. But I still think the better solution is to facilitate such an environment with the veiled woman instead of firing her.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #47 - March 11, 2010, 12:09 AM

Quote from: Iblis on March 10, 2010, 11:48 PM
Don't you use that tone of voice with me young man! I'm just saying that social services should be aware that hijab and any religious symbol forced on children can often be a form of abuse.

And I'm just saying I'm not comfortable with that level of social engineering and interference by the state, which has far too much power over our lives to begin with. It's great that beating the shit out of your kids is no longer legally or socially acceptable, but I think the state has an expansive enough definition of child abuse as it is-- if social services are lacking it is in enforcement and funding, not what is classified as abuse. The state should not classify ideological indoctrination of kids by their parents as "child abuse", unless the child is willing to testify in court to the fact they are punished by their parents for expressing their freedom of conscience-- but people should not be suspected of that just for having their kids wear religious/ideological symbols.

In democratic governments we have elections, and sometimes (well, often, actually) total assholes get elected. The idea of having a state with limited powers is that if and when the assholes get into office their powers to fuck people over are limited. If you set a precedent that DHS can classify ideological/religious indoctrination as child abuse-- what would prevent that power from being abused? Let's say social reactionaries take over-- what would stop them from having DHS take away kids from atheist parents because they dressed them in a Darwin fish T-shirt? In certain US states this could be a real concern.

Quote
I totally support hijab bans in schools and colleges the way the french and turks do because its a religiously and culturally divisive symbol - its more comparable to gang signs, scarfs or tattoos. Parents forcing kids to wear yarmulkes or turbans are very much the same things. They are trying to separate their kids from others.

I think kids should be allowed to wear gang markers in state-run schools too. That someone is under a certain age or that they are in an educational environment does not deprive them of their natural rights to freely express themselves and freely associate with each other. Parents or private institutions may be justified in placing reasonable limits on these rights for minors, but not the state.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #48 - March 11, 2010, 12:14 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7kO3bVB-YI&feature=related

This is what makes me hate the niqaab. When a woman talks in one, it feels weird. You can't see their facial expressions or anything, so a conversation is very odd, even from my experience when I talk to Niqabis something just doesn't feel right. By the way why the fuck does the title say women only? What an immature twat.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #49 - March 11, 2010, 12:15 AM

Quote from: Rational1 on March 11, 2010, 12:08 AM
@billy:

I'm not sure what a supply teacher is. Perhaps it is what we call a substitute teacher? In that case, was she even given a chance to form a bond with her students? I'm interested to know how old the children were that expressed their discomfort with a veiled teacher, whether they were influenced or biased by the attitudes of their parents and other teachers/administration in the school, and how much time they spent with the veiled teacher before deciding they were uncomfortable with her. I do agree that children need and deserve face-to-face interaction with their teachers and other adults of similar relationship. But I still think the better solution is to facilitate such an environment with the veiled woman instead of firing her.

How would society function if we couldn't see the faces of people we have to interact with every day? Our teachers, our postman, our doctors, our work colleagues? If they all had covered faces? Its nightmarish to even think about.

I'm making a general point here. The burqa / niqab presents issues that no other religious article does, for this fundamental reason. I don't think there was any failing in objecting to being taught by someone who has their face covered. Children need to see response in the faces of their authority figures. They need to be able to gauge and recognise and learn about human responsiveness and emotional reciprocity, and this occurs in large part through facial recognition and bonding.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #50 - March 11, 2010, 12:25 AM

I agree with everything you say, I just don't agree that banning the niqab is an acceptable solution. The school could have given her a private classroom where she can remove her niqab while teaching. I don't see why that is such a problem.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #51 - March 11, 2010, 12:28 AM

Quote from: Cool Canadian on March 11, 2010, 12:14 AM
By the way why the fuck does the title say women only? What an immature twat.

It's a video about how to wear a head scarf, and she politely requested for men not to watch. How does that make her immature?

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #52 - March 11, 2010, 12:31 AM

lol, but so what if a man watches it. Its not like I'm gonna get sexually horny by watching it, big deal.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #53 - March 11, 2010, 12:33 AM

That's not the point. The point is that she asked you to respect her privacy. That does not make her immature.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #54 - March 11, 2010, 12:34 AM

Quote
I agree with everything you say, I just don't agree that banning the niqab is an acceptable solution. The school could have given her a private classroom where she can remove her niqab while teaching. I don't see why that is such a problem.

Well, I guess there were reasons for that, and it might be for the good of society as a whole that this decision was made.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #55 - March 11, 2010, 12:37 AM

Actually, that's not right. She asked Muslim men to respect her privacy, as I'm sure she is fully aware there are non-Muslim men who don't care. That's also why she stayed covered for the whole video. If you have no interest in a veiled woman explaining how to style a hijab, then why do you watch it anyway?

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #56 - March 11, 2010, 12:38 AM

Quote from: Rational1 on March 11, 2010, 12:28 AM
It's a video about how to wear a head scarf, and she politely requested for men not to watch. How does that make her immature?

I think some people instinctively recoil from the gender apartheid that Islam in its most puritanical and austere forms asserts. The assumption that as a man you are stigmatised by your very act of looking at a woman is offensive. Its an instinct.

See, this form of Islam excludes, as its very nature. But it doesn't want to be excluded, and claims offence when it is excluded. Its quite a dichotomy, don't you think?

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Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #57 - March 11, 2010, 12:48 AM

Your original telling of the incident did not indicate whether her husband forced her to wear the niqab. If it was not her choice, then the school has become an accomplice with him in oppressing his wife. How unfortunate.

On the other hand, if it was her choice, she was denied her freedom to practice her religion. I guess it's a tough call. I'd rather not see women choosing to wear niqab, but I don't feel it's right to try to prevent them by saying 'you can't do this or this or this if you want to practice that part of your religion.'

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #58 - March 11, 2010, 12:51 AM

I don't get how she's an "immature twat" either. I respect this stuff as far as personal choice goes. But in the public and work space I rank it along side people walking around naked. I respect a niqabi as much as I respect a nudist.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #59 - March 11, 2010, 12:52 AM

My comment about the video was only to say that her polite request for men not to watch did not make her immature.

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