Ban Niqab?

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #210 - July 17, 2010, 02:36 PM

I cant find my bloody response i wrote yesterday!
So i will try again:

Luthiel and HighOctane.

I see your points clearly, (i.e. if it were banned, how many women would be
forbidden to even leave their house) and that REALLY sucks!

On the other hand, we are talking western societies, who are NOT muslim,
and why should they adhere to shariah, let alone muslim laws at all?

Why should islam dictate to them what is acceptable for islam, and what
isnt?

I know you may have relatives or friends who adhere to thie practice
of the niqab, but sometimes i feel muslims need to get over themselves
and realize they are GUESTS in another country, and their shariah doesnt
mean crap to westerners. Whats the point of fleeing to the west, if they
are just going to implement the SAME damned laws there?

When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #211 - July 17, 2010, 03:34 PM

Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on July 17, 2010, 02:36 PM
but sometimes i feel muslims need to get over themselves
and realize they are GUESTS in another country

With most strict to Zair Naik supporting moderate Muslims, indeed. Immigrants (from countries with undeveloped values) should be assimulating to better, developed, values in lieu of trying to creep in their undeveloped ones via the conduit of liberalism.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #212 - July 17, 2010, 03:36 PM

Quote from: HighOctane on July 17, 2010, 03:34 PM
With most strict to Zair Naik supporting moderate Muslims, indeed. Immigrants should be assimulating to better, developed, values in lieu of trying to creep in their undeveloped ones via the conduit of liberalism.

You can't really blame them can you? They will only act according to their nature and the way they've been brought up. Its the fault of the scum in power for bringing in so many and pandering to all the whims of the community leaders while neglecting the native cultures and values.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #213 - July 17, 2010, 03:50 PM

after thinking about this some more, i stand solid on my vote to
outright ban it all together. If the women are oppressed, there
ARE WESTERN LAWS in place to allow her to fight for your rights
with an abusive or oppressing husband. If she wants to wear a
niqab, then they can go back where they came from.

When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #214 - July 17, 2010, 03:53 PM

There is a fallacy in that argument.
You assume every single niqab wearer in Europe is an immigrant. What about White converts who wear it?
Where will they be shipped off to hm or are they exempt?

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #215 - July 17, 2010, 04:07 PM

Quote from: ras111 on July 17, 2010, 03:36 PM
You can't really blame them can you? They will only act according to their nature and the way they've been brought up. Its the fault of the scum in power for bringing in so many and pandering to all the whims of the community leaders while neglecting the native cultures and values.

Difficult question to answer, and need to answer if carefully.

If Chinese, Indians, Africans, Koreans, Vietnamese immigrants can assimilate to British values (to varying degree but a lot better than from Muslim nations), then I don't see why immigrants from Muslims nations should have the understanding to do the same. I do however have sympathy that it is harder for people from Muslim nations to integrate. But for this reason the state should be doing everything possible to not encourage such thinking and practice. I feel the Sharia law is an obvious issue for a start for example. And under this means of thinking, I feel banning the burka would be a good thing (reasons already given in the past).

Btw: it's not about blaming individual immigrants per se, absolutely not. I think, it is about taking actions on the pillars that influence the masses.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #216 - July 17, 2010, 04:18 PM

Quote from: Meredith on July 17, 2010, 03:53 PM
There is a fallacy in that argument.
You assume every single niqab wearer in Europe is an immigrant. What about White converts who wear it?

A very good point. I think it is highly unlikely that a white woman converting is going to defy the ban for a converted belief. Furthermore, if she does, then in my opinion that one susceptible woman's mind that the law has ensured is not deviating away from developed values which her contry has fought hard for.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #217 - July 17, 2010, 04:20 PM

Quote from: HighOctane on July 17, 2010, 04:07 PM
Difficult question to answer, and need to answer if carefully.

If Chinese, Indians, Africans, Koreans, Vietnamese, Korean immigrants can assimilate to British values (to varying degree but a lot better than from Muslim nations), then I don't see why immigrants from Muslims nations should have the understanding to do the same.

Then again depends which Muslim countries.. Muslim populations are not all the same. And you also have to take the background into consideration. Importing a few very educated families from a country with a long history and a lot of culture such as Iran would be far better then importing whole villages of people with little education.

Quote from: HighOctane on July 17, 2010, 04:07 PM
But for this reason the state should be doing everything possible to not encourage such thinking and practice. I feel the Sharia law is an obvious issue for a start for example. And under this means of thinking, I feel banning the burka would be a good thing (reasons already given in the past).

Well I don't think banning it completely the thing is going solve it. If anything it would make it more popular. Better give people the right to discriminate against niqabiyyas and refuse to interact with them professionally.

Quote from: HighOctane on July 17, 2010, 04:07 PM
Btw: it's not about blaming individual immigrants per se, absolutely not. I think, it is about taking actions on the pillars that influence the masses.

ditto

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #218 - July 17, 2010, 04:22 PM

please dont get me wrong, i was a hijabi myself,once.
(meredith, i am an american white woman, too)

and for a time, i believed it was the right thing to do.
I even had arguements with some turkish muslims
regarding it. It was a choice I made, regardless of
the verbal thrashings i received in "hometown" USA.

I am also the granddaughter of immigrants who sought
freedom from the oppression they suffered. So techincally,
I have no "homeland" persay. I wasnt even born/raised in
the states!

With all this said, i still feel a western country has the right
to implement the laws of their land, however they choose.

The western muslimahs made a CHOICE to wear hijab,
niqab. Unless their husbands FORCED them to.

its a conundrum for sure. For so many, the niqab represents
serious oppression of women, look at all the orgs working
tirelessly trying to liberate muslim women around the world!
Is it a double standard, that they fight for women's rights on
one hand, and then condone the very thing they are trying to
eradicate?

When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
Helen Keller
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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #219 - July 17, 2010, 04:23 PM

Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on July 17, 2010, 03:50 PM
If she wants to wear a niqab, then they can go back where they came from.

Make her feel unwelcome, it will be far more effective. No need to contradict our values. State intervention starts from the little things. If it starts at niqabs what's to stop it from going on to other things?

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #220 - July 17, 2010, 04:24 PM

Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on July 17, 2010, 03:50 PM
If she wants to wear a
niqab, then they can go back where they came from.

Wow, easy J&T ... ... some readers may jump to conclusions ... usually only a Muslim can say such a thing and get away with it, see here right at the end of the clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ZXLQE00GY

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #221 - July 17, 2010, 04:25 PM

Quote from: HighOctane on July 17, 2010, 04:18 PM
A very good point. I think it is highly unlikely that a white woman converting is going to defy the ban for a converted belief. Furthermore, if she does, then in my opinion that one susceptible woman's mind that the law has ensured is not deviating away from developed values which her contry has fought hard for.

Oh you would be surprised... Converts for one always try to out do those who were born in the religion. They have much more zeal.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #222 - July 17, 2010, 04:27 PM

Quote from: HighOctane on July 17, 2010, 04:24 PM
Wow, easy J&T ... ... some readers may jump to conclusions ... usually only a Muslim can say such a thing and get away with it, see here right at the end of the clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ZXLQE00GY

I wouldn't have any problems with someone like him, even if he remains a Muslim.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #223 - July 17, 2010, 04:28 PM

Quote from: ras111 on July 17, 2010, 04:25 PM
Oh you would be surprised... Converts for one always try to out do those who were born in the religion. They have much more zeal.

Interesting point. Honestly, I don't know the statistics on that zeal-ness but I know they can learn and better themselves out of it again like two members of this forum.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #224 - July 17, 2010, 04:30 PM

Quote from: ras111 on July 17, 2010, 04:27 PM
I wouldn't have any problems with someone like him, even if he remains a Muslim.

He's the type of chap this country needs more. A true moderate. He is living evidence the situation is not one that cannot be reconciled.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #225 - July 17, 2010, 04:32 PM

Quote from: HighOctane on July 17, 2010, 04:28 PM
Interesting point. Honestly, I don't know the statistics on that zeal-ness but I know they can learn and better themselves out of it again like two members of this forum.

Of course, there is always that chance and it often happens in fact. It eventually becomes a phase. That is why the niqab should not be completely banned (i.e. from the streets) or else it would have an even greater appeal to these people.

But as a general rule newcomers always try to do their utmost to fit in and given the time they spent studying they would want to practice what they studied and learned. Its not like someone who was born into a religion.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #226 - July 17, 2010, 04:34 PM

Quote from: HighOctane on July 17, 2010, 04:30 PM
He's the type of chap this country needs more. A true moderate. He is living evidence the situation is not one that cannot be reconciled.

True, I've known people like him exist for a long time, which is why I could never generalise, but how many like him are there? You have to take that into account. Numbers matter quite a lot in this situation. If the numbers are big there will be even greater peer pressure and a greater emphasis on identity. It would empower the us and them mentality even more and balkanise the society, hence we would see less people like this man over here.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #227 - July 17, 2010, 04:37 PM

Quote from: ras111 on July 17, 2010, 04:32 PM
But as a general rule newcomers always try to do their utmost to fit in and given the time they spent studying they would want to practice what they studied and learned. Its not like someone who was born into a religion.

I have no idea then ... not read enough on converts. I've seen one Muslim woman who wore a skirt and felt it was fine. So I don't know. However I do agree banning something makes it more rebelliously attractive. :-/ Those this issue outweighs the need for the ban I think.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #228 - July 17, 2010, 05:04 PM

Quote from: ras111 on July 17, 2010, 04:34 PM
True, I've known people like him exist for a long time, which is why I could never generalise, but how many like him are there? You have to take that into account. Numbers matter quite a lot in this situation. If the numbers are big there will be even greater peer pressure and a greater emphasis on identity. It would empower the us and them mentality even more and balkanise the society, hence we would see less people like this man over here.

Very interesting. I don't know the numbers but I'm confident he is outnumbered I'm afraid. Furthermore, a chap like him would support at least a partial ban on the burka, since he's supported the ban on minarets for example. I think wearing the burka fuels the us Vs them mentality far more than the banning of it.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #229 - July 17, 2010, 05:11 PM

Quote from: HighOctane on July 17, 2010, 05:04 PM
Very interesting. I don't know the numbers but I'm confident he is outnumbered I'm afraid. Furthermore, a chap like him would support at least a partial ban on the burka, since he's supported the ban on minarets for example. I think wearing the burka fuels the us Vs them mentality far more than the banning of it.

It does, but this is a situation which can only be bad or made worse. Lets face it, forcing her not to wear a burqa on the street is not going to make the burqiyya more likely to assimilate or to sympathise with the government and the country either. She already was not trying to assimilate in the first place.

When I think about countering this situation that old Aesop's fable about sun and the wind comes to mind.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #230 - July 17, 2010, 05:14 PM

The western converts i knew WERE very zealous.
I was too. Cant recollect the number of times I heard,
"wow, you are a better muslim than me, and i was
born and raised muslim"

emph... I dont have a prob with muslims at all!
(the every day muslims, who dont go around trying
to blow others and themselves up, or feel killing
is allah's way)

they are just people like anyone else, except with a
different value system.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #231 - July 17, 2010, 05:18 PM

Quote from: HighOctane on July 17, 2010, 04:18 PM
A very good point. I think it is highly unlikely that a white woman converting is going to defy the ban for a converted belief. Furthermore, if she does, then in my opinion that one susceptible woman's mind that the law has ensured is not deviating away from developed values which her contry has fought hard for.

But it is her country and born and raised.
And if it is, it was her ancestors who fought for those rights to wear what she pleases.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #232 - July 17, 2010, 05:20 PM

Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on July 17, 2010, 04:22 PM
please dont get me wrong, i was a hijabi myself,once.
(meredith, i am an american white woman, too)

and for a time, i believed it was the right thing to do.
I even had arguements with some turkish muslims
regarding it. It was a choice I made, regardless of
the verbal thrashings i received in "hometown" USA.

I am also the granddaughter of immigrants who sought
freedom from the oppression they suffered. So techincally,
I have no "homeland" persay. I wasnt even born/raised in
the states!

With all this said, i still feel a western country has the right
to implement the laws of their land, however they choose.

The western muslimahs made a CHOICE to wear hijab,
niqab. Unless their husbands FORCED them to.

its a conundrum for sure. For so many, the niqab represents
serious oppression of women, look at all the orgs working
tirelessly trying to liberate muslim women around the world!
Is it a double standard, that they fight for women's rights on
one hand, and then condone the very thing they are trying to
eradicate?

Feminism was never about forcing on women one set of view but the freedom to have the option to do what they wished.

Likewise I think it is none of the western governments business interfering with rights that have been in place for centuries as they please.
What makes you right and me wrong? Opinion is subjective which is why law should never be based on anything being "offensive"

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #233 - July 17, 2010, 05:38 PM

Okay, fair enough meredith. But isnt the niqab more a "cultural" thing, rather
than a religious one? Would there ever be cause to worry about one's
national security because the person is unseen behind the veil? I believe i
read somewhere yesterday about two suicide bombers attacking
a mosque, where one of them was dressed as a woman to bypass any
suspicion of their bombing efforts.

http://www.waow.com/Global/story.asp?S=12813386
(this update doesnt cover it, but the original article did)

and once again, muslim on muslim killing is the west's fault

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #234 - July 17, 2010, 05:41 PM

Of course I think it is cultural.
But it is not what I think that matters, if they believe it is a symbol of their religion. I have no right to then say to them "You are wrong, take it off"

Are we now moving from women liberation to the security argument?

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #235 - July 17, 2010, 06:33 PM

These women who decide to wear the burqa need to see a psychiatrist. Seriously speaking.
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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #236 - July 17, 2010, 06:40 PM

No, they don't, you're just being overly critical of their choice to wear it.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #237 - July 17, 2010, 06:40 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on July 16, 2010, 11:18 PM
1. Only to those who feel violated. Some women want to wear and will see it as a violation of their personal right if you force them to remove it.

2. Irrelevant. Discussion is not even about religion. It's a personal attire in a public space.

3. Emotional plea. Amreeka is the sort of country that has (constitutionally at least) room for niqabis. It allows you to be religious and allows you to be non-religious. You can't have the cake and eat it.

1.) Those women need to see a doctor. A psychiatrist and a medical doctor. They need to read more. They have to know what the hell they are standing for. You can't just blindly stand for something.

2.) It is COMPLETELY relevant because they say it is their religion. And for us to ban it is disrespecting Islam and we end up being called "racist" and all that. I don't have a problem with the hijab (I don't like it either) but that is practicing their religion in a safer way - even if the qur'an doesn't mention the hijab either. It is not like the hijab is banned.

3.) It will change soon just as how the UK is changing. You watch and see. I get your point but still.
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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #238 - July 17, 2010, 06:41 PM

Quote from: DARKEYED9 on July 17, 2010, 06:40 PM
You can't just blindly stand for something.

Yes you can.

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Re: Ban Niqab?
Reply #239 - July 17, 2010, 06:45 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on July 17, 2010, 06:41 PM
Yes you can.

I agree, it's not for us to say whether that person should or shouldn't know what they are supporting - that's their choice.

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