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Theme Changer

 Topic: Are you a feminist?

 (Read 23442 times)
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  • Are you a feminist?
     OP - March 09, 2010, 05:57 AM

    To all the women: would you identify yourself as a feminist, and if so, were while Muslim, or was it islam that made you a feminist? Also, guys, would you say you're pro-feminist, or whatever they call male feminist supporters.
    --

    Honestly I dont know whether Id rather live in the bible belt or a strict Muslim community

    Quote
    If there's controversy brewing here in Fort Worth – and some say there is – it's not on the campus of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, and not in this room. Nine women have gathered for the college's latest offering, a female-only elective course designed to teach women how to better manage their households and, it is hoped, stanch the rising tide of divorce in the Bible Belt.

    The class, "Biblical Model for Home and Family," is one of nine courses, with others focusing on the value of a child, clothing construction, nutrition, and meal preparation, that make up a homemaking concentration Southwestern began offering female humanities majors this fall.

    The move has attracted criticism, but Bible-based homemaking courses aren't that unusual. Masters College, a Christian liberal-arts school in California, offers courses teaching women how to cook, manage time, and "joyfully submit to their husbands." Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., offers a marriage and family class teaching wives how to meet their husbands' needs and keep marriage exciting.

    • • •

    Behind many of these classes are ideals as deeply rooted in the Southern Baptist faith as the oak trees that dot Southwestern's lawn. The husband is the head of the household. The wife is his helper. Both are equal in God's eyes, but their roles are not interchangeable. The Baptist Faith and Message, a doctrinal statement adopted in 2000 by the Southern Baptist Convention, outlines those roles clearly: "A husband ... has the God-given responsibility to provide for, protect, and lead his family. A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband...."

    Dr. Paige Patterson, president of Southwestern, led the committee that wrote the statement of faith. His wife, Dr. Dorothy Patterson, the sole female professor at the college, teaches "The Biblical Model for Home and Family" from their home on campus. But make no mistake – though she lists "homemaker" as her occupation on tax returns, she's a trained theologian as well, holding multiple degrees.


    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #1 - March 09, 2010, 12:05 PM

    Feminism has many shades.

    I call myself an "antisexist".
    It's a term that makes more sense to me, because I see both sexes as being oppressed by sexism.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #2 - March 09, 2010, 06:36 PM

    I consider myself a humanist-feminist. I know some crazy feminists and I don't identify with those (the ones who seem to hate all sex altogether and align themselves with religious-traditionalists when it comes to viewing sexuality as something bad, evil, humiliating etc.) That said, I absolutely believe in equal value of all genders/sexes. That means both men and women have equal inherent value, and have equal chances of being good, intelligent, creative, bold, exemplary, as well as being stupid, dumb, mean, lazy, greedy and pathetic. I judge people based on what they do, not on what's between their legs.

    As for religions, they are ALL sexist, favouring men over women. All of them, including the Abrahamics of course (which is obvious), but also Hinduism, Buddhism etc. to varying degrees.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #3 - March 09, 2010, 06:51 PM

    My views, as marxist, fall well in line with radical feminism.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #4 - March 09, 2010, 06:53 PM

    Oh - 'to the ladies'. Fuck that.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #5 - March 10, 2010, 05:50 AM

    I'm a feminist, of no particular variety or specific philosophy.

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #6 - March 10, 2010, 06:10 AM

    Oh - 'to the ladies'. Fuck that.


    lol. Sorry and fixed.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #7 - March 10, 2010, 08:22 AM

     Cheesy So you let a man tell you how to post? Question: are you a feminist?

    Anyway, to my mind "feminism" in its basic form is just a belief that women should not be treated as second class citizens. I honestly cannot see how any sane person could be against that.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #8 - March 11, 2010, 04:35 AM

    Q: How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb?

    A: That's not funny!  finmad

    fuck you
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #9 - March 11, 2010, 04:41 AM

    Cheesy So you let a man tell you how to post? Question: are you a feminist?

    Anyway, to my mind "feminism" in its basic form is just a belief that women should not be treated as second class citizens. I honestly cannot see how any sane person could be against that.


    Tu me parles, Os? And whos a man? Panoptic? Dang I thought he was a chick  Cheesy. Sue me for assuming a radical feminist was a woman, guess I shouldn't from now on. Plus, if he's a feminist, whats his genitalia got to with anything? And no, I wouldn't necessarily call myself a feminist. Just asking the question  grin12. Feministic tendencies maybe.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #10 - March 11, 2010, 04:42 AM

    Q: How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb?

    A: That's not funny!  finmad


    lol

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #11 - March 11, 2010, 05:45 AM

    I think it's so unfortunate that there are so many negative connotations about feminism. All the myths about feminism has caused it to become stigmatized and make people reluctant to associate themselves with the word. I hate when I see some very feminist people who are afraid to call themselves feminist. I think this is a major way in which enemies of feminism have succeeded in taking the word and turning it into something negative. I think we should take the word back and people (men included) should proudly call themselves feminists instead of dissociating themselves from it because then you let the haters control the discussion.

    I think the common myths associated with feminism should be closely examined. The humorless feminist being a big one! But, I can't blame the 'humorless' (if you don't laugh at sexist jokes, you're no fun apparently) feminist because too often sexist shit is excused in the name of humor ("take a joke") . That's the problem in our 'post racist' and 'post feminist' society. Just because that blatant form of discrimination against women and people of colour is no longer socially acceptable does not mean that we are post racist or post feminist! Racism and sexism are still so rampant and ingrained, that they've become invisible.

    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #12 - March 11, 2010, 06:00 AM

    I think there is a bit of a difference with how people regard feminism in the political/sphere sphere vs the social/cultural sphere. The fact is, practically all westerners are feminist when it comes the basic issues of equal rights and oppurtunities for women. It is a great and understated achievement of women activists who fought hard for very basic things like suffrage. I think we can all agree on that good stuff.

    The contention comes in when we approach deeply cultural and social issues. And often feminists are percieved as being very preachy, judgemental, angry and trying to shove ways of thinking down your average persons throats through pure guilt tripping and self-righteous indignation. Heck, I've even been a target of that similar self-righteous indignation on this form. Yelling at guys to be more sensitive won't work, in fact it will make shit worse as our defensive mechanisms kick in. You can hammer home and march for legal and political change aggressively but cultural and social attitues take a long time to change.

    And btw, I'm not saying that all of the cultural/social changes that feminists want are *wrong* or not worthy - they probably are worthwhile changes we (including me) could use. I'm talking more about the methodology and communication of those topics.

    A great recent example of feminists trying to shove something down Canadian's throats was the anthem issue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_Canada#Proposed_changes_to_lyrics

    When Canadians shot that ridiculous proposal down quickly, a (presumably) feminist MP whined that "If there's been such a backlash then this is another example, for me, of hatred against women."  

    I mean seriously? Huh?


    Racism and sexism are still so rampant and ingrained, that they've become invisible.


    Frankly the underlying racial stuff in western society doesn't bother me one bit. I've learnt to just let that shit slide, its a white country, so it's expected. Fact is, I'm from the mideast and those places were *really* racist. Some attitudes of some white people hardly bothers me as long as my core rights and economic oppurtunities are preserved. We used to have plenty of tribalistic racist shit going on back in high school between the whites and the browns (desis+arabs) but I still don't consider that real racism since whatever problems there are in Canada you can deal with it.

    Bottom line is, issues of race and sex are not just imaginary things. They are real. The differences between races and the sexes are real. As are, unfortunately, the biological inequities. Its part of life and people need to learn to deal with it and navigate those waters rather than complain and try to make people pretend to believe things they really don't. I'd rather deal with an honest racist redneck albertan than a person just pretending to be okay with me because he doesn't want to come across as a racist.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #13 - March 11, 2010, 06:15 AM

    The differences between races and the sexes are real. As are, unfortunately, the biological inequities.


    I knew that you believe there are "real differences" between sexes (besides anatomy), so what in your opinion are the real differences and biological inequities between races (besides anatomy)?

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #14 - March 11, 2010, 06:16 AM

    I think the common myths associated with feminism should be closely examined. The humorless feminist being a big one!


    Hey, my joke was funny, I don't care what you say.

    Quote
    But, I can't blame the 'humorless' (if you don't laugh at sexist jokes, you're no fun apparently) feminist because too often sexist shit is excused in the name of humor ("take a joke") . That's the problem in our 'post racist' and 'post feminist' society. Just because that blatant form of discrimination against women and people of colour is no longer socially acceptable does not mean that we are post racist or post feminist! Racism and sexism are still so rampant and ingrained, that they've become invisible.


    Point taken, but I think there's a few problems here.

    First, I think there's a general problem when people just generally become humorless when it comes to certain ideological, social or cultural beliefs. The "humorless feminist" is one of the more widely known archetypes/stereotypes, but they certainly aren't the only group of people with strong opinions who can be humorless. It's part of the reason I drifted away from the radical left over time-- too many self-righteous, overly serious, humorless fucks in that world. Not that it's only a problem of the left, of course.

    Second, the fact that how sexism is defined is sometimes subjective can be problematic. Now some things are clearly and objectively sexist, but as the various schools of feminist theory can attest to, there are many points on which not even self-proclaimed feminists can agree, and what is or is not sexist is among them.

    Third, although there is definitely still sexism even in the most developed countries, it is so less materially, politically, and socially relevant say, in the US, than in most of Africa, or when comparing the 19th century US with the 21st century US, that I really think certain feminists in developed nations can sometimes lose perspective on shit. I'm sorry, but rich white women in the US who are convinced they are so horribly oppressed after taking a few gender theory and women's studies classes in college really piss me off-- and many are completely tunnelvisioned about their own particular issue of "oppression", which, ironically enough, isn't all that personally relevant to them. I'm not saying that rich white women in developed nations can't be victims of sexism, but some of these rich white radical feminists really need to get a grip on reality.

    I saw an action alert from NOW go out for people to call in to prevent the cancellation of that horrible, horrible West Wing imitation TV show where Geena Davis becomes the first woman President. It was prominently posted on their website one day when I was browsing on it.I mean, fuckin seriously? This warrants an action alert from the leading American feminist organization? Canceling a lame, crappy TV drama is sexist? That's the kind of shit I'm talking about.

    Many mainstream schools of feminism in the developed nations have crossed the line from legitimate liberation struggle into shallow, petty and myopic identity politics. And if it's this bad in the US where at least the abortion/birth control issue continues to give mainstream feminist groups like NOW some relevance, I can only imagine how bad it is in countries where criminalizing abortion is off the table and domestic abuse rates are low.

    fuck you
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #15 - March 11, 2010, 06:28 AM

    I knew that you believe there are "real differences" between sexes (besides anatomy)


    Well anatomy IS the big factor when it comes to difference between the sexes - the biological and chemical factors are the key difference that lead to other behavorial difference. Am I not right? If not, please correct me. I'm obviously not an expert.


    Quote
    , so what in your opinion are the real differences and biological inequities between races (besides anatomy)?


    Well.. anatomy and physical differences is what I was meaning. And yes, I do believe there are issues of intelligence and temperment that are affected by race - though I don't beleive they are exclusively linked to race or that even if race is a dominating factor in that. But we can't deny that humanity has progressed very differently along very racial lines - though its one of many factors. There are obviously other factors as outlined in books like Guns, Germs and Steel. But obviously scientists like to avoid the racial differences like the plague, for good reason.

    But still, the anatomy is the key difference I mean. Our racial colors, shapes, proportions, skulls, etc are biological realities and what more can be an immediate differentiating factor than what we can see with our very eyes? Lots of us trancend racial differences, but most of us do not - and that would include most Canadians who are still pretty racially segregated. And no its not because those people are poor and dumb, the white albertans out here do it quite intentionally and consciously, as do people of other colors. Desis, east asians also segregate themselves along racial and ethnic lines and they do so as a choice, not out of ignorance.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #16 - March 11, 2010, 06:30 AM

    You're right about sexism in personal and popular culture being MUCH more difficult to change. This was/is the mighty task Third Wave Feminists proposed to tackle.

    Anyways, what you're basically saying is that feminists should be nicer when they're educating people on their sexist ways and that if the feminists aren't nice, then guys will continue to be sexist and ignorant because those feminists won't stop being a bunch of meanies?

    What did you think about secularists trying to remove God from the national anthem? Are atheists and other non religious people forcing their agendas down Canadians' throats?

    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #17 - March 11, 2010, 06:32 AM

    rich white women in the US who are convinced they are so horribly oppressed after taking a few gender theory and women's studies classes in college really piss me off-- and many are completely tunnelvisioned about their own particular issue of "oppression", which, ironically enough, isn't all that personally relevant to them. I'm not saying that rich white women in developed nations can't be victims of sexism, but some of these rich white radical feminists really need to get a grip on reality.


    I agree with a lot of that. Feminism is least equitable when it ignores issues of LGBT women, non-white (black, brown, asian, native, etc.) women, non-western women, sex-workers, poor women and disabled/elderly women. Unfortunately, too many western feminists ignore the intersectionality of these issues. As the basic idea of male-female equality in terms of opportunities that should be available to both (in all aspects of life), I am a feminist. But I am more of the Audre Lorde and bell hooks and Shirin Ebadi school of feminist, and less of the upper-class-white-western school. The basic idea is admirable but feminism has branched out into so many incompatible factions, it's hard to keep track. The bottom line is that women are HUMANS - they can be as great as any great man, when given the right combination of talent and opportunities. And they can be as stupid as any stupid man. Outside of that basic idea, feminism means such different things to different people.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #18 - March 11, 2010, 06:34 AM

    Well anatomy IS the big factor when it comes to difference between the sexes - the biological and chemical factors are the key difference that lead to other behavorial difference. Am I not right? If not, please correct me. I'm obviously not an expert.


    Here's an expert--

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQvnZOR_oIk

    fuck you
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #19 - March 11, 2010, 06:35 AM

    Feminism is the curious idea that women are humans too.  - bumper sticker of my debate teacher

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #20 - March 11, 2010, 06:37 AM

    Anyways, what you're basically saying is that feminists should be nicer when they're educating people on their sexist ways and that if the feminists aren't nice, then guys will continue to be sexist and ignorant because those feminists won't stop being a bunch of meanies?


    No, they don't need to be nicer. They just need to realise people take time to accept cultural changes, and they need to stop getting bent out of shape when people don't buy what they're selling. Just like that MP that called canadians women-haters for rejecting the feminist change to the anthem. Maybe it will change in time? Who knows? But getting mad and spitting curses at Canadians for not tagging along? That shit doesn't help.

    Quote
    What did you think about secularists trying to remove God from the national anthem? Are atheists and other non religious people forcing their agendas down Canadians' throats?


    They sort of are. I'm not much a fan of changing that stuff. Most people believe in God. Period. God in the anthem doesn't violate any civil liberties so its a secondary issue. Atheists need to first focus on educating the masses in critical thinking about religion first and get more people on their side before gunning for changes like that.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #21 - March 11, 2010, 06:41 AM

    Feminism is the curious idea that women are humans too.  - bumper sticker of my debate teacher


    "Why yes, as a matter of fact I do fuck on the first date"-- my bumper sticker

    fuck you
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #22 - March 11, 2010, 06:47 AM

    Anyways, I think this song captures the essence of what my beliefs on feminism are:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqXi8WmQ_WM

     dance


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvjDr8KKtsE

     eusa_boohoo

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #23 - March 11, 2010, 07:00 AM

    Jon Lajoie is awesome. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #24 - March 11, 2010, 07:03 AM

    The differences between races and the sexes are real. As are, unfortunately, the biological inequities. Its part of life and people need to learn to deal with it and navigate those waters rather than complain and try to make people pretend to believe things they really don't.

    Woah. Where are you going with this? When did biological differences become biological inequalities? Also, it is widely agreed among anthropologists and scientists that race is not a valid scientific concept but rather  a social construction. But hey, you're more than welcome to join the likes of Philippe Rushton and his crew.

    As for the differences between the sexes, no one said men and women are the same. I remember The Apostate constantly using the word 'liberation' instead of 'equality' when talking about women's rights. I asked why this was and she said that equality was all fine and dandy but too many people equate (hah) equality with  sameness and then they go down that stupid line of reasoning..."Men and women are not equal because they're different so...". I share her sentiment now.

    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #25 - March 11, 2010, 07:10 AM

    Woah. Where are you going with this? When did biological differences become biological inequalities? Also, it is widely agreed among anthropologists and scientists that race is not a valid scientific concept but rather  a social construction. But hey, you're more than welcome to join the likes of Philippe Rushton and his crew.


    The old 19th century classification of the races are not a real biological concept - i think that's what you're meaning. And yes, that's something we figured out a while ago. But are you denying that the racial differences aren't real? Of course people realize now that the differences are a lot smaller than we used to believe, and that there is a gradient and transition between races. But the differences itself are there.

    This is a good site that challenges both racist and anti-racist notions about race. I think both of those sides are two scientifically inaccurate and politically motivated positions on race.

    http://racialreality.110mb.com/


    And I was perhaps a bit stupid to use the term "biological inequities" since that gives the impression that I'm talking about inherent inhibitions in X race. What I mean is that race, while not something set in stone or with clear lines or boundaries, is still a real biological reality that has, as seen through history, often been dividing line of culture and development.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #26 - March 11, 2010, 07:15 AM

    Well anatomy IS the big factor when it comes to difference between the sexes - the biological and chemical factors are the key difference that lead to other behavorial difference. Am I not right? If not, please correct me. I'm obviously not an expert.


    There are different schools of thought on the sex/gender dichotomies. Judith Butler has written books about the "Performativity of Gender". That is, gender is something assigned to us and we play out the formulae we are supposed to play out. There's much research and analysis behind her writing (which is somewhat difficult to read, it's in a very dense philosophical style). But basically, the idea is that gender is a performance we play, whether we are "men" or "women".

    Anne Fausto-Sterling's article "How To Build A Man" is also a good read that goes into the steps that it takes to construct a gender identity.

    Joan Roughgarden has written about sexual selection from an evolutionary biologist perspective.

    There are of course biological differences, both in appearance and in functionality. I don't see how anyone could deny that unless he / she lives under a rock.

    What I think most people who'd argue against the idea that men and women are always inherently different, is in terms of how men ought to act, and how women ought to act. This is the idea that fuels every form of sexism. Whether we're talking about different rules for male promiscuity and for female promiscuity, or for how men are allowed to act when they're sad (man up, don't cry, lash out if you must etc.) and how women are allowed to act when they're mad (be polite, swallow your anger, act like a lady etc.)

    There is lots of evidence for the idea that masculinity and femininity are not only not consistent across cultures (which means they are not inherently there, but are correlated to cultural norms), but also that it is ingrained into humans from an early age, from parents decorating their unborn babies' rooms in pink for girls and blue for boys, to other factors that reproduce gender roles.

    Well.. anatomy and physical differences is what I was meaning. And yes, I do believe there are issues of intelligence and temperment that are affected by race - though I don't beleive they are exclusively linked to race or that even if race is a dominating factor in that.


    So then what's the point of saying there are intelligence and temperament factors affected by race? Are you suggesting things like certain races are smarter than others? Are you sure about the homogeneity of races?

    Making blanket statements is dangerous territory. And not just politically incorrect. It's logically incoherent to say that all men are this or that or all women are this or that or all blacks are this or that or all whites are this or that. That's not unlike saying all Muslims are this or that or all Canadians are this or that. Besides the differences between "races" is more of a spectrum rather than clear markers.

    But we can't deny that humanity has progressed very differently along very racial lines - though its one of many factors. There are obviously other factors as outlined in books like Guns, Germs and Steel. But obviously scientists like to avoid the racial differences like the plague, for good reason.


    There are historical reasons that are at play. Anthropology and history documents a lot of how certain groups of people colonized and dominated over other groups of people. This happened in multiple instances within and over almost all the regions of the world. To deny all that history and attribute the "progress" of certain cultures or "races" to purely biology is not a good idea as it denies the lived reality of humans and disempowers future progress.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #27 - March 11, 2010, 07:24 AM

    No, they don't need to be nicer. They just need to realise people take time to accept cultural changes, and they need to stop getting bent out of shape when people don't buy what they're selling. Just like that MP that called canadians women-haters for rejecting the feminist change to the anthem. Maybe it will change in time? Who knows? But getting mad and spitting curses at Canadians for not tagging along? That shit doesn't help.

    They sort of are. I'm not much a fan of changing that stuff. Most people believe in God. Period. God in the anthem doesn't violate any civil liberties so its a secondary issue. Atheists need to first focus on educating the masses in critical thinking about religion first and get more people on their side before gunning for changes like that.


    I think you're painting all feminists with the same brush. Like Allat said, there are too many approaches and strains of feminism that you wouldn't get two feminists to agree on an issue, even if they believe in the same brand of it. I think the ones that scream the loudest get the most attention and people form their ideas about feminism based on this minority. Its like saying Muslims are terrorists because those are the only Muslims you see on TV. The Canadian MP is a bad example. She gives feminism a bad image and does not represent it as a whole- this would be impossible to do. I don't even think most feminists agree with her. Looking at some blogs, some would prefer the govt focus on more important issues and the ones who were pro-change were rational about why they wanted it changed and weren't all "Fuck the anti-feminist Harper govt!!!" Disappointed? yes, but vitriolic or coercive? no.

    There's also misandrists and female misogynists who try to pass themselves off as feminists. They're also loud and give many the impression that being a feminist equals being a man-hater.

    Basically, simply saying, I hate feminism, or I disapprove of feminism, or even I like feminism is problematic. Feminists obviously agree on "women are people", as most do, but past that you can only define what you like or hate about a certain kind of feminism, not what it is as a whole.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #28 - March 11, 2010, 07:24 AM

    Maybe the race posts can be split out to another thread? I think it's a worthwhile, if perhaps contentious topic.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Are you a feminist?
     Reply #29 - March 11, 2010, 07:31 AM

    I think you're painting all feminists with the same brush. Like Allat said, there are too many approaches and strains of feminism that you wouldn't get two feminists to agree on an issue, even if they believe in the same brand of it. I think the ones that scream the loudest get the most attention and people form their ideas about feminism based on this minority. Its like saying Muslims are terrorists because those are the only Muslims you see on TV. The Canadian MP is a bad example. She gives feminism a bad image and does not represent it as a whole- this would be impossible to do. I don't even think most feminists agree with her. Looking at some blogs, some would prefer the govt focus on more important issues and the ones who were pro-change were rational about why they wanted it changed and weren't all "Fuck the anti-feminist Harper govt!!!" Disappointed? yes, but vitriolic or coercive? no.

    There's also misandrists and female misogynists who try to pass themselves off as feminists. They're also loud and give many the impression that being a feminist equals being a man-hater.

    Basically, simply saying, I hate feminism, or I disapprove of feminism, or even I like feminism is problematic. Feminists obviously agree on "women are people", as most do, but past that you can only define what you like or hate about a certain kind of feminism, not what it is as a whole.


    I can't disagree. Of course I'm just picking out the shitty examples. I'm well aware I'm generalizing, thats a given. But I think generalizations do mean something.. ie so and so group has a tendency to engage in so an so behavior. We do it all the time with Muslims, ie giving them social tendencies that not all muslims necessarily share. So yeah, I acknowledge I need to couch my group identification more carefully. All feminists are *not* like what I was pointing out at all.

    There are different schools of thought on the sex/gender dichotomies. Judith Butler has written books about the "Performativity of Gender". That is, gender is something assigned to us and we play out the formulae we are supposed to play out. There's much research and analysis behind her writing (which is somewhat difficult to read, it's in a very dense philosophical style). But basically, the idea is that gender is a performance we play, whether we are "men" or "women".

    Anne Fausto-Sterling's article "How To Build A Man" is also a good read that goes into the steps that it takes to construct a gender identity.

    Joan Roughgarden has written about sexual selection from an evolutionary biologist perspective.

    There are of course biological differences, both in appearance and in functionality. I don't see how anyone could deny that unless he / she lives under a rock.

    What I think most people who'd argue against the idea that men and women are always inherently different, is in terms of how men ought to act, and how women ought to act. This is the idea that fuels every form of sexism. Whether we're talking about different rules for male promiscuity and for female promiscuity, or for how men are allowed to act when they're sad (man up, don't cry, lash out if you must etc.) and how women are allowed to act when they're mad (be polite, swallow your anger, act like a lady etc.)

    There is lots of evidence for the idea that masculinity and femininity are not only not consistent across cultures (which means they are not inherently there, but are correlated to cultural norms), but also that it is ingrained into humans from an early age, from parents decorating their unborn babies' rooms in pink for girls and blue for boys, to other factors that reproduce gender roles.



    Okay, I'll read up on some of that. Since I'm obviously not on top of this topic and have a very surface understanding of it. I'll admit my ignorance. You gals would school me on this stuff any day.

    And yes, i agree there is a big difference between *real* biological differences vs *engineered* behavorial and role differences that our societies have been ingrained with over many millenia.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

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