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Theme Changer

 Topic: Are you a feminist?

 (Read 23898 times)
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  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #60 - June 10, 2014, 02:49 PM

    I would be hesitant to say anything about that until I've read the context and actual claim.

    I do must say however that you can't make a distinction between "real issues" and issues like these. The "real issues" are affected, and upheld, due to our world view. Science, history, politics, everything has been and still is androcentric.

    There is no "one feminism"; the only thing all feminists agree on is that women are discriminated and subjugated women, they recognize patriarchy as a system, and they strive to abolish discrimination between the genders. How to do it, and how to define discrimination etc depends.

    Sorry for typos, and that I can't (bother to) elaborate on my point I wanna make, but it's almost 30 degrees outside and I'm sick with a little bit of fever. And typing from phone, which I hate Smiley

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #61 - June 10, 2014, 03:04 PM

    There is no issue here, it's trying to make one where there isn't.

    Are you suggesting there is androcentrism in Physics (and Math)? There is a difference in the percentage of Physicists, of which women comprise little. This can attributed to social reasons, and in turn most females (and males) not being interested in learning Physics. However, you will begin to loose me if you're going to suggest that actual theories and hypotheses in Physics are gender bias, which is ridiculous. And if you are, then I want examples.
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #62 - June 10, 2014, 03:37 PM

    She also said Einstein's Relativity was gender biased.

    But anyway, I believe this is the full passage:


    Oh, and here's Irigarary's quote on E=mc^2

    These quotes come from books about feminism, and you can see why it can be damaging.

     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #63 - June 10, 2014, 03:45 PM

    Descent: it is not within the subject itself, but within the "field" which you yourself admitted. It's about science bding a "male" concern and subject.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #64 - June 10, 2014, 04:12 PM

    You'll have to clarify, I don't understand what you mean.

    Quote
    Androcentrism is the practice, conscious or otherwise, of placing male human beings or the masculine point of view at the centre of one's view.


    I just don't see it in Physics.

    I want an example.
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #65 - June 10, 2014, 04:30 PM

    She means that science is for men, not women.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #66 - June 10, 2014, 05:20 PM

    OK Descent, I'm in front of my computer so I'm a little bit more motivated to write this thing out.

    The point is that, from what I understood from the "Newton rape manual"-claim, is that Newton used rape to explain or illustrate his theory or point. Or did I read that wrong? The author who claimed, a bit over-dramatically perhaps in order to get her point through, it should be called "Newton's rape manual", probably meant that Newton reflected the world view that shaped, and still shape when this example or "metaphor" is still used, our understanding of the world and in particular our understanding of "women". I haven't read the book, so I can't argue pro or against her. But it seems she has some interesting points and maybe someday I'll bother to look up her work. Till then, I have nothing more to say on this particular matter.

    As for the androcentric world view, this is something that pervades our entire society. History is androcentric, because women of importance are not given room. When you read history, it's like women are non-existing. Perhaps you think, maybe women weren't contributing much. But then you start your research, and you're like "shit, there's a lot of interesting historical women we are never taught about!". It's the same with non-white historical representation. Sometimes, you think only white men have ever done anything interesting or worth noting. Then you start your own research and all of a sudden you wonder why we are never taught about these non-white historical figures.

    The same thing can be said about science. Science, physics or chemistry or whatever, has been "masculine". It was not befitting for women to engage in, and those who did had to do a lot of work to even be recognized. It's been the same with literature. Even during 19th century, people wondered if women could even be as good authors as men and if they should even be allowed to write. Even J-K Rowling decided not to use her full name, because the publisher said that she probably wouldn't sell as many books if the buyer thought it was a woman who had written "Harry Potter" (This was before the hype, when Harry Potter was just another fantasy book to be discovered).

    It's not just about women not being given access, and in that way being excluded. It's also like in the "history example" I gave, that women who did contribute are either ignored or had to work their assess off in order to be recognized. Androcentricism makes the male body the default body. It makes men the "norm". Everything that is not the norm, must then be "deficient" or "deformed". From a post-colonial view point, there's a matter of race as well that could be added. All non-white, non-male bodies are excluded. And when they take up room in spaces that are not built for them, since they are shaped and formed from a male (white) perspective, they become a sore spot.

    I highly recommend you to read Puwar's book I suggested. Instead of spending hours upon hours reading 10 different books about this, Puwar really summarizes things in a comprehensive manner.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #67 - June 10, 2014, 05:34 PM

    I was talking about theories and hypothesis, such as relativity, being gender bias and sexist (or sexed), which is what both Irigarary and Harding have said, which is ridiculous.
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #68 - June 10, 2014, 05:36 PM

    I can't say anything about that, because that isn't really what I understood from the little I read. Perhaps one should read more into it in order to understand what they are really saying. Smiley

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #69 - June 10, 2014, 06:19 PM

    They were saying absolute bollocks and proved only that they aren't to be taken seriously.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #70 - June 10, 2014, 06:48 PM

    In that same book.

    Quote
    When the Copernican theory of the Earth-centered universe with a sun-centred universe, it also replaced a women-centered universe with a man-centered one. For Renaissance and earlier thought within an organic conception of nature, the sun was associated with manliness and the Earth with two opposing aspects of womanliness. In the new Copernican theory, the womanly Earth, which had been God's special creation for man's nurturance, became just on tiny, externally moved planet circling an insignificant orbit around the masculine Sun.


    Quote
    Does the feminist case that science is gendered have to rest on showing that the scientific method is sexist? Does a de-gendered science have to produce a new method of knowledge-seeking. Or does the feminist case have to rest on showing that the best confirmed claims the sciences have made are sexist? Does it have to show that Newton's or Einstein's laws are sexist in order to provide a plausible argument of the gendered nature of science?


    Quote
    Biology is a socially constructed concept too - dated. It categorizes and defines ‘organisms’ a certain way - not wholistically - and not the only way possible, I might add.


    Quote
    I admit, I am a science heretic. It is a belief system and I’ve confronted it’s limitations - quite soundly and concretely - for my own understandings.



    Apparently, this women is an influential feminist. I sure hope not.
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #71 - June 10, 2014, 07:02 PM

    "Does the feminist case that science is gendered have to rest on showing that the scientific method is sexist? Does a de-gendered science have to produce a new method of knowledge-seeking. Or does the feminist case have to rest on showing that the best confirmed claims the sciences have made are sexist?"

    What the actual fuck did I just read?

    I look forward to any feminist explanation of how the scientific method is sexist, I'm genuinely curious.
    Where is the room for sexism within hypothesis testing, constructing confidence intervals etc..?
    The claimant has the unique burden of proof of showing that Statistical parameters are intrinsically sexist.

    Oh look at me, I'm so sexist!





    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #72 - June 10, 2014, 07:08 PM

    What's more baffling is Einstein's laws (aka general relativity) and the word sexist are in the same sentence. I always knew gravity was sexist!

    And I don't know what this woman has against biology.

    That's why these people are detrimental to the cause of feminism.
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #73 - June 10, 2014, 07:13 PM

    They were saying absolute bollocks and proved only that they aren't to be taken seriously.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #74 - June 10, 2014, 07:15 PM

    I appreciate the demonstrable fact that certain fields have a gender bias. However, how this doesn't justify the superimposition of your own bias upon an inductive method.
    Labeling general relativity as sexist is an irrelevant conclusion lol, what's next... classical space-time?

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #75 - June 10, 2014, 07:15 PM

    :/

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #76 - June 10, 2014, 07:20 PM

    That's why these people are detrimental.


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #77 - June 10, 2014, 07:35 PM

    No. I became an egalitarian when I had realised that men were also oppressed. I have always avoided my religion's nasty parts and hence was liberal and secular even as a Muslim.
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #78 - June 11, 2014, 12:53 AM

    I don't know about science being sexist, but the liberal arts totally oppressed me by making me think they were subjects actually as useful to study as science.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #79 - June 11, 2014, 09:27 AM

    No. I became an egalitarian when I had realised that men were also oppressed. I have always avoided my religion's nasty parts and hence was liberal and secular even as a Muslim.


    I feel I can still be a feminist in the face of male oppression too, since I believe that it is patriarchy (amongst other things such as class and race) that oppresses both sexes.

    I believe feminism has done a lot for women, but has been tarred by a few far out there feminists, so that everyone judges all feminists in the same way.

    It sucks, but its life right?  A few bad apples, and everyone thinks the whole orchard is ruined. 

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #80 - June 11, 2014, 12:49 PM

    I suppose the humanist label would be the only one necessary. Still, since they're not mutually exclusive, I choose to use both. 
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #81 - June 11, 2014, 12:55 PM

    I suppose humanism sounds better as it strips away the gender that feminism is titled upon.

    Quite often I've met guys who don't know it's ok for them to be a feminist too, thinking by the title that it excludes them.  I can see why they might think that.

    Maybe in some respects it is a word that still relies too heavily on gender, even if focusing on gender through feminism has been crucial.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #82 - June 11, 2014, 01:03 PM

    Personally, I don't think it is enough to be a "humanist", because you have gender specific oppression and problems in society that are founded on patriarchy and misogyny. Feminism, the ideology, its theories and analytic tools it uses to discern patterns and structures are important.  Don't forget that both men and women suffer from this, so it's not like all men have it awesome. I think there's this misconception that feminism only focuses on women's rights and deems all men to be monsters.

    Even those who seemingly benefits from it, suffer in ways they don't understand. Imagine the CEO of a company who works 70 hours per week, but never sees his kids because he's excused for acting in a way for which a woman would practically be lynched for Smiley So yeah, he doesn't have to take care of the house, or the kids, he can be away for days and work long hours. But what about his relationship with his children? So yeah, he's also partly a victim of gender roles and expectations,

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #83 - June 11, 2014, 01:08 PM

    Oh, I agree.  Like I said, patriarchy oppresses both sexes.

    My son was hounded out of wearing his hair long, into wearing it short by teachers in his school, and his peers.  Who he wanted to be matter nothing in the face of traditional views of masculinity.  (more like contemporary though, hair length on men evolves in much the same way fashion has....more that no matter what, there will always be an accepted version of masculinity)

    Even if I do believe a case could be made against the use of the title feminism, which is an argument that would rest wholly on speech act theory and the power of the word, I still see myself as a feminist.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #84 - June 11, 2014, 01:09 PM

    Mind you thinking about it, you could lose that argument using the same argument, in that the power of the word, gives the movement the power it needs.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #85 - June 11, 2014, 01:37 PM

    ........................... I still see myself as a feminist..........


    Hmmm..  see time changes people ...... Radical  feminist  Sahara  to...to... feminist BerberElla., I wonder what will be the logical next step?? 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #86 - June 11, 2014, 01:38 PM



    Feminism is very contested, sectarian, people fight over the definition of what it is, lots of different versions of it, people embrace it, define it according to their own viewpoints.

    I think its basically the most revolutionary movement in human history, and its effect has been to make every single assumption subject to its conscience.

    Its beyond disagreements of what it means. Its a change in the whole atmosphere of humanity. You will pay attention to women, how women are treated and oppressed, and women shall not be silenced by any taboo or belief system or assumption any more.

    So its not really whether or not we are feminists, its understanding that feminism has entirely changed everything (especially in the matter of religion) and how are you going to come to terms with that?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #87 - June 11, 2014, 01:39 PM

    Imagine the CEO of a company who works 70 hours per week, but never sees his kids because he's excused for acting in a way for which a woman would practically be lynched for Smiley

    Isn't there a term for that in Germany? Raven mothers, I believe, used as an insult.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #88 - June 11, 2014, 01:43 PM

    I think all feminist agree that there is not one single definition of what feminism is. What all feminist agree upon however is that women are subjugated, that patriarchy is a reality, and that they want to do something about it. The how, when, why, where differs and I think this is the strength, and sometimes perhaps even the weakness, of feminism. Feminism isn't something that was invented in the 20th century, but has a very long history and development  Smiley

    @QSE don't know about any specific terms, but yes. Women who act like men in this regard are demonized. All the while, men acting like that goes unnoticed. Some would even think he's a good husband and father, providing for his family Roll Eyes

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Are you a feminist?
     Reply #89 - June 11, 2014, 02:00 PM

    It's something that has just been normalised. My aunt is actually the reverse, she goes out to work and has a husband that putters around the house cooking, cleaning and looking after the kiddie.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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