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Theme Changer

 Topic: Ex-Muslim voices

 (Read 4740 times)
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  • Ex-Muslim voices
     OP - March 15, 2010, 02:30 PM

     I post this as a follow on the the discussion begun in the 'Europe is failing Islam ' thread. Someone stated that it was a shame they didnt have an ex-muslim in the audience and it went on to ask why that is.
    I didnt want to hijack that thread and think this is an important enough topic for its own thread.

    So why are there not more ex-muslim voices out there? Is it really becuase the media is not interested? Has there been an effort made outside of CEMBs own outlets to engage with the media or even demand a voice?
    I think the level of current Islam/West debate would be raised a few notches if some of the excellent points I read on here could find a bigger audience. My own concsciousness has been raised by nth degrees on many aspects in the short time I have been here. (much to the chagrin of some Islamo-blaggers - both muslim and nonmuslim- who resent my 'inside knowledge' as it gets in the way of their dogmatic ranting)

    From a U.K. perspective alone I could see the immense benefit from other voices entering the debates ,especially voices that have a natural bullshit-busting talent. It would help avoid polarisation and stagnation of many of the arguements we hear so often and would unbalance the dogmatists from the comfortable perches they sit on.

    If it is a question of feeling doors being closed to you then you should keep in mind that no door worth passing through has avoided having to be battered down at some point.

    I know that for a lot of ex-muslims there is the complication of not being able 'to come out' or there is the worry of how it would affect your family if you were public with your position. I realise it is easier for someone like me ( ex-catholic)to stand up in my community and say this is bullshit,enough!
    However it is only easier for me due to the first brave souls who did go through shit for it when it was hardest and more dangerous to do.

    I think your voices are needed and that the  more they are heard the more like-minded people will also speak up.
    Ive just realised how preachy this sounds, I honestly dont mean it like that. I just really believe that your positions are one of power not weakness and that the potential you have for making a difference and causing changes in attitudes is immense.

    I just wanted to start a conversation about this topic and hope to hear from some of you about your take on it.







    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #1 - March 15, 2010, 02:42 PM

    You make a very important point!

    Of course part of the reason there are not more ex-Muslim voices being heard is the fear factor.

    But more and more ex-Muslims are now beginning to raise their voices and it really needs some help and encouragement from mainstream politicians and media etc... to give them a platform. Unfortunately many are still too PC to do that. I myself contacted BBC1's "The Big Question" - a religious discussions program that airs all sorts of hot topics, but I didn't even get an acknowledgment from them. Same with Channel 4 and also the same when I spoke to some politicians on rallies. It seems they are scared of touching Ex-Muslims fearing that what we might say would make them look 'anti-Islam' or 'anti-Muslim' which no politician or mainstream media wants to risk.

    Actually I can understand their concern as the debate around Islam has sadly been typified by extreme polarisation, ignorance, hysteria and downright bigoted voices who are considered a lunatic fringe and so no politician or media outlet wants to be associated with such people.

    But I wish some would have a look here at this CEMB forum and see that Ex-Muslims are not in fact extreme haters and we have some very valuable things to say and contribute to the debate around Islam.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #2 - March 15, 2010, 03:04 PM

    Maybe CEMB needs some high-profile, controversial/provocative demos/counterdemos.

    The fact that the issue of Islam in the UK has already become so polarized definitely puts you guys at a disadvantage, as does the nature of the mainstream media. While the BBC may not be quite as bad as some US news broadcasters, they are still going to be more inclined to showcase the extremists of either side at worst, or at best present a black and white X vs. Y issue, and organizations like CEMB don't fit neatly into the box that the media would like you in. They want you firmly in the "Islamophobia is the danger" camp or the "Muslims are the danger" camp. Notice the most prominent ex-Muslims in Europe and elsewhere that given media coverage as part of the overall discussion/debate about Islam seem to me at least to be those with few qualms about siding with the hardass anti-Muslim camp-- not that I necessarily blame them given the current circumstances and lack of good options.

    Fact is that taking a nuanced and moderate position on a highly polarized and controversial political/social issue is an obstacle to having your voice in the media. You have to fight for it and consider some more creative media-whoring tactics.

    Hey, maybe next time the EDL hold a demo outside a radical mosque, you could beat the shit outta the EDL folks, then beat the shit out of the imams right afterward-- that might get you in the spotlight.*  I can just imagine Hassan doing that.  Cheesy

    *Legal disclaimer for the humor-challenged-- this is a joke, and I am not seriously suggesting doing anything of the sort.

     

    fuck you
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #3 - March 15, 2010, 03:20 PM

    @Hassan

    You could send a brief email explaining who you are and why you are contacting him to kenan@kenanmalik.com
    Kenan Malik is a presenter of BBC Radio 3’s Analysis and BBC Radio 4’s Night Waves he is interested in and deals with this sort of issues and is a CEMB supporter.

    I would be extremely surprised if you don’t get a response from him.

    You could also leave a message on his facebook page:
    http://www.facebook.com/kenanmalik

    I cannot think of a single person more suitable for discussing these issues in the media in an intelligent and calm manner than you.


  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #4 - March 15, 2010, 04:04 PM

    Quote
    So why are there not more ex-muslim voices out there?


    Fear.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #5 - March 15, 2010, 04:26 PM

    Is it really becuase the media is not interested?


    The media to some extent might not be receptive to this kind of thing. Remember the BBC documentary about guys named Mohammad. Even though a number of Mo's from here wanted to be featured on the show, it was pretty much a piece of propaganda for Islam. In Britain, parts of the media, especially the BBC, see themselves as having to go out of their way to promote dawah-lite images of Islam to counteract the 'negative' images of Islam that abound. To have ex-Muslims fully and freely articulating their views wouldn't be a case of setting the cat among the pidgeons, it would be more like setting a tiger amongst the sparrows, because lets face, what ex-Muslims have to say is frankly, so explosive.

    Its already tough enough for broadcasters to make programmes that critically examine aspects of political Islam without facing storms of grief and hysterical protest. Actively giving major platforms for Islam's worst nightmare - ex-Muslims who can't be denounced as being 'Islamophobes' or 'Agents of neo-Imperialism' or 'Orientalists' or 'Neo Cons' and who won't shut up despite the culture of OMERTA inside Islam, and despite the injunctions to murder them - it would be so traumatic for, not just Muslims, but in particular, the ultra poiliticised Islamists, Jamat-e-Islamis, Muslim Council of Britain types.

    A question every journalist should be asking, and asking it over and over again of every mainstream Islamic institution and self-appointed 'expert' or 'community representative' is on the question of apostasy, the death sentence, and the social coercion faced by those who reject Islam. On the basis of, why does Islam seek to convert, when it actively works to kill and harass with threats and violence those who exercise their natural right as British men and women to observe freedom of religion and conscience. It should be broadcast to every corner of the land, because it is horrific and unacceptable. Giving ex Muslims a voice would be a start to this, a powerful corrective to myths about Islam, to the ever engaged attempts to carry out dawah in our society, and most importantly, to the pretentions and hypocrisies of the Ummah Identity Politicians.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #6 - March 15, 2010, 04:33 PM

    I tried giving an ex-Muslim voice to the BBC "My name is Mohammed". Gave up several hours in the process and ended up not being on the show because I wouldn't show my face/parts of my body.

    Many Ex-Muslim's are still young and not financially secure and as mentioned fear other extreme Muslims.

    @Hassan: Good on you to contact the BBC. Shame that they didn't even contact you. I think the BBC/media fear social unrest with ex-Muslims coming out.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #7 - March 15, 2010, 05:01 PM

    Same with Channel 4 and also the same when I spoke to some politicians on rallies. It seems they are scared of touching Ex-Muslims fearing that what we might say would make them look 'anti-Islam' or 'anti-Muslim' which no politician or mainstream media wants to risk.

    Paradoxically this sort of stance is exactly what BNP and Geert Wilders are hoping for. It gives them a platform nobody else wants to touch on a silver plate.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #8 - March 15, 2010, 05:06 PM

    Quote
    Paradoxically this sort of stance is exactly what BNP and Geert Wilders are hoping for. It gives them a platform nobody else wants to touch on a silver plate.


    Excellent point.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #9 - March 15, 2010, 09:08 PM

    Good point.

    Although, the promotion of ex-Muslims will also be a promotion of atheism and so there is a double whammy of social unrest:
    - one to Muslims
    - the other to religions in general

    I think that others, for example the CSC/Douglas Murray, do not promote ex-Muslims on the ground of the latter issue. Various religious people work at the CSC.

    This might not sound like a major point, but I feel it may well be.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #10 - March 15, 2010, 09:20 PM

    Keep pushing it. 
    Some TV person will eventually realise that there is a big audience for this.
    It will eventually build bridges.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #11 - March 15, 2010, 09:23 PM

    @HighOctane

    Do you really think that promotion of ex-muslims could result in an social unrest and what exactly do you mean by social unrest? I can imagine that a few people would feel a bit upset but that is about it.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #12 - March 15, 2010, 10:39 PM

    @Kenan: Well perhaps the social unrest part is a bit far fetched, I'll take that back. I think you are right that not that many people (non-Muslims) in the UK will kick up a fuss about it. Perhaps @hupla is right, it's a gap in the market.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #13 - March 15, 2010, 10:47 PM

    @Kenan: Well perhaps the social unrest part is a bit far fetched, I'll take that back. I think you are right that not that many people (non-Muslims) in the UK will kick up a fuss about it. Perhaps @hupla is right, it's a gap in the market.

    I think it's important because it takes the wind out of right-wing sails, and allows non-Muslims connect with people from a somewhat islamic background in a positive way - basically it throws a curve ball at both serious sharia and stormfront types which can only be a good thing.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #14 - March 15, 2010, 10:49 PM

    I think it's important because it takes the wind out of right-wing sails, and allows non-Muslims connect with people from a somewhat islamic background in a positive way - basically it throws a curve ball at both serious sharia and stormfront types which can only be a good thing.


    +1

    I think this should be the primary purpose of orgs like CEM. We're more a signal to mainstream society than an actual movement.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #15 - March 15, 2010, 10:53 PM

    +1

    I think this should be the primary purpose of orgs like CEM. We're more a signal to mainstream society than an actual movement.

    Not really  - its too small to be even that.  Its what people become and do outside of these forums, that will leave longer lasting legacy..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #16 - March 15, 2010, 10:54 PM

    Hey I would gladly help out if a CEM was established in Canada. Too bad we don't have one.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #17 - March 15, 2010, 11:01 PM

    Not really  - its too small to be even that.  Its what people become and do outside of these forums, that will leave longer lasting legacy..

    So far - though it might begin to form a platform or a legitimacy for people to do that...
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #18 - March 15, 2010, 11:02 PM

    What is the chance that in the UK:
    - exMuslims start forming and promoting Muslims to atheism/renouncing Islam through a decent amount of publicity. Younger generation Muslims then start leaving in sizable proportions ...
    - extremist Muslims then go about killing the well known exMuslim proponents, as part of a sophisticated operation

    I think there is a 1-2% chance this might happen. Or perhaps I'm a cynical pessimist!
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #19 - March 15, 2010, 11:06 PM

    Yep, although I still dont understand how Salman Rushdie is still alive?

    At some point apostates will become more & more comfortable about coming out.  But then an apostate in the West will be murdered.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #20 - March 15, 2010, 11:32 PM

    But then an apostate in the West will be murdered.

    It might take something like that for politicians to be prodded into paying attention. It would be good if that were not the case...
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #21 - March 16, 2010, 01:15 AM

    Yes I agree Fear is an important Issue. I know because I live in a religious Muslim household and except for my immediate family, no one knows about my Apostasy. My parents are in denial and if any of my family relative members knew they'd probably never talk to me again. go figure  Roll Eyes
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #22 - March 16, 2010, 03:35 AM

    I live in a city in the North of England where there is a large minority of Muslims. Amongst the twenty and thirty somethings, there are more and more practicing "brothers" and "sisters", most of them are fairly peace loving individuals, however it doesn't take long for the leopard to change it's spots once it learns that there is an ex-muslim atheist amongst them.

    Other than my immediate family, a few relatives and two "friends", there aren't many people aware of my atheism. I've not even bothered telling my nominal muslim friends about it. Simply because it's committing social suicide where I live. I don't think there is anything worse than learning from your wife that she's been taunted or risking your kids being teased and beat up at school. Why would you want to put them through that?

    I suppose if you live in a larger city where there isn't so much bigotry, then it might be easier. I've learnt to keep it under wraps from past experience and from people who have been through the backlash of broadcasting their apostasy. I'm just waiting for the kids to get a little older so that I can move from this shitty little city!
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #23 - March 16, 2010, 03:39 AM

    That's a pretty tight spot there Omaar. Good luck in finding a better and more ecclectic and diverse place.  Afro

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #24 - March 16, 2010, 01:12 PM

    I live in a city in the North of England where there is a large minority of Muslims. Amongst the twenty and thirty somethings, there are more and more practicing "brothers" and "sisters", most of them are fairly peace loving individuals, however it doesn't take long for the leopard to change it's spots once it learns that there is an ex-muslim atheist amongst them.

    Other than my immediate family, a few relatives and two "friends", there aren't many people aware of my atheism. I've not even bothered telling my nominal muslim friends about it. Simply because it's committing social suicide where I live. I don't think there is anything worse than learning from your wife that she's been taunted or risking your kids being teased and beat up at school. Why would you want to put them through that?

    I suppose if you live in a larger city where there isn't so much bigotry, then it might be easier. I've learnt to keep it under wraps from past experience and from people who have been through the backlash of broadcasting their apostasy. I'm just waiting for the kids to get a little older so that I can move from this shitty little city!



    Good luck mate.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #25 - March 16, 2010, 01:36 PM

    For many muslims Descartes' quote still applies

    "He who hid well, lived well."
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #26 - March 16, 2010, 03:12 PM


    Good luck mate.




    Cheers Billy, I suppose it's just the reality of my situation. I just have to work my way around it.
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #27 - March 16, 2010, 03:53 PM

    the 2nd gen.  immigrants running away from the 2nd gen. immigrants  Afro

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #28 - March 16, 2010, 03:55 PM

    ^^ irony

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Ex-Muslim voices
     Reply #29 - March 20, 2010, 10:27 PM

    thanks for the replies on this , as always it was very informative to the non muslim/ non-ex muslim  Afro

    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
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