Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?

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Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
OP - March 16, 2010, 11:13 AM

I'd be interested to get some responses. What do you think. Philosophically, atheism has been around for a long time and has always been a position that could be supported philosophically. Evolution helps us to understand our position and origin and a retort to the sheep faced question by the creationist "who made us?"
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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #1 - March 16, 2010, 11:18 AM

The theory of evolution was not necessary for an atheist position.
It was helpful because it gave a positive statement on the origin of life but atheism is a negative doctrine - it need not make any positive statements and it is still a philosophically viable position.

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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #2 - March 16, 2010, 11:20 AM

But without science isn’t a philosophical approach to atheism more like your word against mine?

For me Science grounds the atheistic philosophy, or a sceptical one, in the real world. We deal with concretes and not abstractions.
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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #3 - March 16, 2010, 11:23 AM

Atheism doesn't make any positive statements, therefore I can't compete in this "your word against mine" tit for tat.

All atheism says is that theism is irrational. This point of view doesn't need evidence, it just needs a rational mind.

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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #4 - March 16, 2010, 11:27 AM

Quote from: BlackDog on March 16, 2010, 11:20 AM
But without science isn’t a philosophical approach to atheism more like your word against mine?

For me Science grounds the atheistic philosophy, or a sceptical one, in the real world. We deal with concretes and not abstractions.

This is part of it but only forms a necessary rather than sufficient position. Philosophy and reason also play a part. When discussing "God" as a philosophical idea, it isn't necessary that science is used to disprove it. The rules of logic and reason are enough to point out the fallacies. Science offers a thorough and naturalistic explanation for the origin of the cosmos and it's workings, without invoking a creator.
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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #5 - March 16, 2010, 11:37 AM

I died as a mineral and became a plant,
I died as plant and rose to animal,
I died as animal and I was Man.
Why should I fear? When was I less by dying?
- Rumi

This poem gives you an example of why evolution can also be a (very poetic) positive statement for a form of mysticism. All mystics throughout the ages have been preaching the doctrine of alchemy - the evolution of the lead of the mind into enlightenment. Evolution is just as compatible with mysticism as atheism.

Atheism, therefore, requires an extra step beyond the bare science.

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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #6 - March 16, 2010, 11:39 AM

When it comes to religions, I think evolution has helped tremendously. The creation myth, Adam and Eve, does not correspond to the real world for example.

When it comes to God, I think evolution has helped to negate some of the points made in favour of a God. For example an Intelligent Creator. Or even signs of a guided creation. In the case of God(s), I think evolution has helped less. But that’s only because science deals only with what we can observe. You cant prove/disprove something we can’t observe.

So yes I am inclined to agree that philosophy can help, especially for my second point. I guess I need to read more about atheism.
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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #7 - March 16, 2010, 11:40 AM

I have often thought that Rumi was a heretic, but because of the time and circumstances he was living in, he couldn't quite make his opinions thorough and public. Instead he had to couch them in his Masnavi for people to read between the lines.
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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #8 - March 16, 2010, 11:48 AM

Quote from: z10 on March 16, 2010, 11:37 AM
I died as a mineral and became a plant,
I died as plant and rose to animal,
I died as animal and I was Man.
Why should I fear? When was I less by dying?
- Rumi

Thanks - I am sticking that to the quotes section

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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #9 - March 16, 2010, 11:56 AM

Quote from: BlackDog on March 16, 2010, 11:39 AM
When it comes to religions, I think evolution has helped tremendously. The creation myth, Adam and Eve, does not correspond to the real world for example.

Adam and Eve isn't universal. One only has to study the world religions to discover that this phenomenon of Adam and Eve is lacalised to the Abrahamic and "theist" account of human creation. A cursory glance at anthropology soon shows creation myths of other people outside the Middle East and Arabian peninsula. Thus showing it's man made nature, without having to invoke evolution.

Quote
When it comes to God, I think evolution has helped to negate some of the points made in favour of a God. For example an Intelligent Creator. Or even signs of a guided creation. In the case of God(s), I think evolution has helped less. But that’s only because science deals only with what we can observe. You cant prove/disprove something we can’t observe.

Empirically no, the whole point of atheism is non-belief, it doesn't have to prove anything. Philosophy and reason simply show the fallacies of supporting a belief in God grounded in reason as superfluous. If one want's to "leap" to faith then that's all it is a leap. No truth claim can be made from it.

Quote
So yes I am inclined to agree that philosophy can help, especially for my second point. I guess I need to read more about atheism.

I think I have already pointed some books out to you on this subject. I would also read about world religions just to show you that other than "theism" there are many other "ism's" which show the huge myriad and proliferation of religions throughout history. It will also take you away from speaking the language of judaism/xtianity and islam.
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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #10 - March 16, 2010, 12:09 PM

I'll have to get back to you OK, first need to read books you've recommended. You just wait.. I'm not done with you yet

And Z10, you're next in line. You guys think you are so smart because you use big words, I have big words too, how about this: ray tracing and ambient occlusion.

I have no idea what they mean but I can throw them out just as good as the next video game nerd.
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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #11 - March 17, 2010, 12:21 PM

i apologise blackdog, I can try and paraphrase for you if you like...

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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #12 - March 17, 2010, 12:24 PM

Quote from: z10 on March 17, 2010, 12:21 PM
i apologise blackdog, I can try and paraphrase for you if you like...

lol no i understand what you mean... haha im taking the piss, im actually complimenting you, but i cant debate with you on a higher level until i read more.. so i will be back and not saying i even disagree with you, but i like to play the devil's advocate sometimes
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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #13 - March 17, 2010, 12:26 PM

haha sure, I await

and please don't call this a debate, I hate debates. I'm all for a friendly discussion though

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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #14 - March 17, 2010, 12:26 PM

well put!
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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #15 - March 17, 2010, 03:17 PM

Evolution didn't strenghthen atheism, it weakened theism ( at least the Abrahamic ones)

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #16 - March 17, 2010, 04:33 PM

Quote from: z10 on March 16, 2010, 11:37 AM
I died as a mineral and became a plant,
I died as plant and rose to animal,
I died as animal and I was Man.
Why should I fear? When was I less by dying?
- Rumi

Wait a minute - how did Rumi in the 13th century know about our Darwinian stages of evolution from plant, to animals to men?

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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #17 - March 18, 2010, 07:13 PM

I am assuming he extrapolated in terms of complexity. Mineral - plant - animal - man seems like a chain of increasing complexity even outside of scientific discourse.

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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #18 - March 18, 2010, 07:19 PM

Quote from: deusvult on March 17, 2010, 03:17 PM
Evolution didn't strenghthen atheism, it weakened theism ( at least the Abrahamic ones)

^this

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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #19 - March 18, 2010, 07:27 PM

Quote from: IsLame on March 17, 2010, 04:33 PM
Wait a minute - how did Rumi in the 13th century know about our Darwinian stages of evolution from plant, to animals to men?

Mysticism, meaning Hindu and Buddhist and other Pagan mysticism, though usually bastardized nowadays, and commercialized, but in its classics contains knowledge much of which was later verified through scientific inquiry. In fact scientists of today were comparable to the mystics in other non-western, non-Abrahamic societies.Rumi, as a Sufi and a mystic Sufi, had a lot of influence from the Hindu mystics and others of his day and before his time. Plus, he seemed to have been way ahead of his own time in many ways. Though yes he was limited to working within the bounds of Islam, which is also evident in some of his writings. Rumi was also bisexual and had to keep that under wraps due to the Islamic environment.

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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #20 - March 18, 2010, 07:35 PM

This is the first time I have heard of Rumi being bisexual Allat - could you please elaborate?

He is certainly a fascinating person. I am making slow progress through his mathnawi whenever I remember to read it every now and again.

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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #21 - March 18, 2010, 07:41 PM

What I know about Rumi is from varying sources all questionable, since most are from Islamic sources, who often try to downplay both his mysticism/syncretism of Pagan and Hindu influences, and his own sexuality. But he had a long term live-in relationship with Shams Tabrizi, and many of his poems mention Shams as his teacher, his mentor, and more, and a lot of it could be signs of a deeper, personal, romantic relationship between the two. It's hard to find authentic sources of Rumi's life that are not biased from Islamic religious writers who infused their own religious ideology into any translations of his work and his biography.

I'll look for more sources and post them in the forum as I find them.

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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #22 - March 18, 2010, 07:44 PM

I'm looking for a good English translation of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diwan-e_Shams-e_Tabrizi

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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #23 - March 18, 2010, 07:49 PM

Quote from: deusvult on March 17, 2010, 03:17 PM
Evolution didn't strenghthen atheism, it weakened theism ( at least the Abrahamic ones)

Nice - Sticking this in the quotes thread

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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #24 - March 18, 2010, 07:51 PM

Quote from: z10 on March 18, 2010, 07:13 PM
I am assuming he extrapolated in terms of complexity. Mineral - plant - animal - man seems like a chain of increasing complexity even outside of scientific discourse.

You might be right, because he got minerals wrong

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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #25 - March 18, 2010, 07:52 PM

Quote from: allat on March 18, 2010, 07:27 PM
Mysticism, meaning Hindu and Buddhist and other Pagan mysticism, though usually bastardized nowadays, and commercialized, but in its classics contains knowledge much of which was later verified through scientific inquiry. In fact scientists of today were comparable to the mystics in other non-western, non-Abrahamic societies.

Here's another example of something (the age of the universe) known to ancient mystical traditions (Hinduism in this case) that was verified centuries later by science: (The speaker in the video is Carl Sagan)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVQ4l5IOHKc

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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #26 - March 20, 2010, 04:02 AM

I stopped believing in all religions and in an omnipotent deity before I read up on evolution. I think without the theory of evolution I might still be believing in a non-omnipotent creator who doesn't give a fuck about the world.
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Re: Do you think evolution gave atheism/agnosticism a firmer philosophical position?
Reply #27 - March 20, 2010, 01:39 PM

Quote from: z10 on March 18, 2010, 07:13 PM
I am assuming he extrapolated in terms of complexity. Mineral - plant - animal - man seems like a chain of increasing complexity even outside of scientific discourse.

or perhaps he was just being poetic

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