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 Topic: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?

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  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #90 - March 19, 2010, 04:50 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on March 18, 2010, 03:15 PM
    As of now, none. Historically, you could argue for Turkey or Iraq 1957-1968.


    What particular features qualify those countries to be regarded as "secular" during this period? 

    Quote
    Again, we can't assume that all Muslim follow the Quran literally.

     

    That is, fortunately, true. But what should be deduced from this? Wherever you have Muslim "communities" establishing themselves, you will sooner or later have jihad and sharia enforcement, as sure as night follows day.


    Quote
    Agreed 100% but let's let people label themselves. If a gay individual wants to be recognized as a Muslim, it's up to them.


    However, if such self-deception may lead to the wider non-Muslim society being deceived into believing that "true" Islam is  some kind of "gay-friendly" pluralistic religion that should be allowed to grow and flourish unchecked in our midst, those of us who know the facts have a duty to highlight them. Don't you agree?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #91 - March 19, 2010, 04:55 PM
    Quote from: DH on March 19, 2010, 04:50 PM
    However, if such self-deception may lead to the wider non-Muslim society being deceived into believing that "true" Islam is  some kind of "gay-friendly" pluralistic religion that should be allowed to grow and flourish unchecked in our midst, those of us who know the facts have a duty to highlight them. Don't you agree?


    No.

    If as an idle intellectual exercise, sure. But as a moral obligation? It is on the level of a mental sickness to feel the need to "challenge" a religion if it is in practicallity harmless. Judaism has just as many nasty, exclusivist, and violent commandments as Islam - should I therefore challenge what some peaceful reform Jew believes because its not "true judaism"? Sure you can do that if you want to look like a complete idiot.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #92 - March 19, 2010, 04:56 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 18, 2010, 05:20 PM
    Whether the US vetoes or not, its still openly contravenes UN conventions on All Forms of Racial Discrimination


    Yeah, and Israel is also in open violation of several UN resolutions (including security council resolutions) and has been for decades. Israel does what they want as long as Uncle Sam has their back.
    fuck you
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #93 - March 19, 2010, 05:00 PM
    Quote from: Iblis
    No.

    If as an idle intellectual exercise, sure. But as a moral obligation? It is on the level of a mental sickness to feel the need to "challenge" a religion if it is in practicallity harmless.


    Unfortunately, Islam, unlike judaism,  continues to demonstrate that it is anything BUT "practically harmless".
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #94 - March 19, 2010, 05:01 PM
    Quote from: DH on March 19, 2010, 05:00 PM
    Unfortunately, Islam, unlike judaism,  continues to demonstrate that it is anything BUT "practically harmless".


    Uh yes, that is the whole premise of this forum and exactly what lot us believe. So are we at an impasse because we actually agree with each other?
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #95 - March 19, 2010, 05:07 PM
    And to say Judaism is "practically" harmless is pretty much not grounded in reality either. Unless of course you missed the last 60 or so years of middle eastern history. Judaism and Evangelical Christiniaty are, in practicallity, as great threats to human existence as Islam. Only difference is that our dear evangelicals and jews are actually armed with nuclear weapons while, thankfully, most of our musulmans are not.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #96 - March 19, 2010, 05:21 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 19, 2010, 05:01 PM
    Uh yes, that is the whole premise of this forum and exactly what lot us believe. So are we at an impasse because we actually agree with each other?


    DH is an authoritarian who wants to ban mosques and start deporting Muslims because he is of the belief that none of them can be trusted. He spoke kindly of Enver Hoxha's methods of dealing with Islam. This is where he's coming from, FYI.
    fuck you
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #97 - March 20, 2010, 06:53 AM
    Motherfucker Judaism can suck my balls dry.

    A religion that splits the world into gentiles and jews doesn't even deserve saliva as a lubricant. Stupid fucking religion.
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #98 - March 20, 2010, 07:19 AM
    Quote from: DH on March 19, 2010, 04:50 PM
    What particular features qualify those countries to be regarded as "secular" during this period?

    Separation of religion and state, preservation of rights and freedoms of religious minorities, lack of compulsory religious education in state schools....etc (features Iraq had).


    Quote from: DH on March 19, 2010, 04:50 PM
    That is, fortunately, true. But what should be deduced from this? Wherever you have Muslim "communities" establishing themselves, you will sooner or later have jihad and sharia enforcement, as sure as night follows day.

    There are many Muslim-majority countries now, how many of them enforce Sharia? Last time I checked, in Iraq which is at its shittiest stages right now, alcohol could be purchased legally, there were no Hijab laws, no Islamic corporal punishment like beheading or arm cutting, and homosexuality was legal.


    Quote from: DH on March 19, 2010, 04:50 PM
    However, if such self-deception may lead to the wider non-Muslim society being deceived into believing that "true" Islam is  some kind of "gay-friendly" pluralistic religion that should be allowed to grow and flourish unchecked in our midst, those of us who know the facts have a duty to highlight them. Don't you agree?

    Tell that to a gay Catholic or a gay Haredi Orthodox Jew.
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #99 - March 20, 2010, 12:08 PM
    Quote from: DH on March 19, 2010, 04:50 PM
    What particular features qualify those countries to be regarded as "secular" during this period? 

    Turkey has been secular since Ataturk.
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #100 - March 20, 2010, 04:42 PM
    It is real, and I would consider myself being islamophobic regarding the original meaning of the word, I indeed fear the ideology and how it affects the personal rights of individuals, the pinciples of democracy and secularism. That doesn't mean that I hate Muslims, nor do I have a problem with Islam as long as it is the personal religious belief of someone who doesn't try to force his beliefs on others. Though, exactly that is the point; is it actually possible to be a devout Muslim and to accept/tolerate the (non)beliefs of non-Muslims? Can there even be a liberal and tolerant Islam? Whenever I debate with Muslims, I hear them saying that calling Islam intolerant and anti-democratic would be unfair and a prejudicing. But regarding the reality in practically all Islmaic countries, and not only the theocracies, I highly doubt that.
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #101 - March 20, 2010, 05:25 PM


    I think one of the most important issues of our time is how to delineate between healthy and rightful criticism of Islam as a religion and the politicised identity politics of Islam, and the prejudice that individuals face in society because they are either Muslims or perceived to be Muslims by the bigots. Simultaneously being opposed to racism, bigotry AND Islamist identity politics and aspects of the religion of Islam is a position that gets you shot at from both sides, but it is a space that has to be created.

    The problem comes when Islamist Identity Politics compounds the identification between 'Ummah' and individuals as a matter of essentialisation as much as bigots who say that all Muslims are the same. In other words, the problem is two-sided and complex.

    But its something we have to strive relentlessly to uphold - and condemn the racist bigots whenever they appear, from wherever they appear. The BNP are a reality, as much of a reality as the Jamat-e-Islami Maududi types, and grassroots bigotry against people because assumptions about who they are is a reality we have to always guard against.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #102 - March 20, 2010, 05:29 PM
    Quote from: billy on March 20, 2010, 05:25 PM

    I think one of the most important issues of our time is how to delineate between healthy and rightful criticism of Islam as a religion and the politicised identity politics of Islam, and the prejudice that individuals face in society because they are either Muslims or perceived to be Muslims by the bigots. Simultaneously being opposed to racism, bigotry AND Islamist identity politics and aspects of the religion of Islam is a position that gets you shot at from both sides, but it is a space that has to be created.

    The problem comes when Islamist Identity Politics compounds the identification between 'Ummah' and individuals as a matter of essentialisation as much as bigots who say that all Muslims are the same. In other words, the problem is two-sided and complex.

    But its something we have to strive relentlessly to uphold - and condemn the racist bigots whenever they appear, from wherever they appear. The BNP are a reality, as much of a reality as the Jamat-e-Islami Maududi types, and grassroots bigotry against people because assumptions about who they are is a reality we have to always guard against.


    I think the biggest problem is that only far-right bigots and other religious fundamentalists are the only ones that really are willing to put in energy in robustly confronting the issue of Islam and Islamist politics. Liberals and leftists have either stayed quite or actually supported islamist causes (either unwittingly or knowingly). Until the left realizes that freedom of speech, freedom of religion, secular society and women's rights are their causes and something they should be the first to defend, we'll always have a problem with people feeling uncomfortable with harsh criticism of Islam since it will always be associated with racist or fanatical elements of western society.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #103 - March 20, 2010, 05:35 PM

    Yes I agree with you - the Left has either sided with Jamat-e-Islami / Maududi / Muslim Brotherhood / Tariq Ramadan Ummah Identity Politics or has abdicated its duty to critique it, thereby leaving a vacuum for others to fill.

    Its not just Geert Wilders and so on - alot of the most cogent work of confronting Islamism, and in general of highlighting issues of importance to Islamic dissenters has been done from the Right, people who disagree with Wilders, but who are still from the Right.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #104 - March 20, 2010, 05:40 PM
    For me the most dissillusioning moment in Canada was when the Canadian Muslim orgs were pushing sharia courts in Ontario. Pretty much the entire liberal and leftist establishment in Canada were sitting by idly and contributing nothing to ex and secular muslims who were really the only ones - along with the canadian right - that were speaking out quite passionately against it. I lost all my respect for feminists and our leftists NDP party, they are so beholden and supportive of their "pet" minorities that they would let pass the most obvious violations of human rights as long as it was written in arabic or sanskrit.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #105 - March 20, 2010, 05:46 PM
    Quote from: billy on March 20, 2010, 05:35 PM
    Yes I agree with you - the Left has either sided with Jamat-e-Islami / Maududi / Muslim Brotherhood / Tariq Ramadan Ummah Identity Politics or has abdicated its duty to critique it, thereby leaving a vacuum for others to fill.

    Its not just Geert Wilders and so on - alot of the most cogent work of confronting Islamism, and in general of highlighting issues of importance to Islamic dissenters has been done from the Right, people who disagree with Wilders, but who are still from the Right.


    Quote from: Iblis on March 20, 2010, 05:29 PM
    I think the biggest problem is that only far-right bigots and other religious fundamentalists are the only ones that really are willing to put in energy in robustly confronting the issue of Islam and Islamist politics. Liberals and leftists have either stayed quite or actually supported islamist causes (either unwittingly or knowingly). Until the left realizes that freedom of speech, freedom of religion, secular society and women's rights are their causes and something they should be the first to defend, we'll always have a problem with people feeling uncomfortable with harsh criticism of Islam since it will always be associated with racist or fanatical elements of western society.


    This may be largely (though certainly not totally) true in the West, but it is not the case in the Muslim world. There the Left, particularly the Communists, have always been on the front lines against Islamism. The notable exception being in Iran 1979, though it didn't take long for the Communist Party of Iran to realize their error (mass imprisonment and execution of your membership will do that).
    fuck you
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #106 - March 20, 2010, 05:49 PM
    Oh, I'm definitely talking about the west.

    I'm not too familiar with leftist Muslim orgs. I know we used to have lots of communists back in the day, but the general idea of the Muslim leftists/secularist seems almost akin to an endangered species to me.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #107 - March 20, 2010, 05:56 PM

    Yeah, I'm talking about the West and most specifically, Britain.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #108 - March 20, 2010, 06:03 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 20, 2010, 05:49 PM
    I know we used to have lots of communists back in the day, but the general idea of the Muslim leftists/secularist seems almost akin to an endangered species to me.


    Unfortunately, quite true. The West can take some blame for this too, as the US and its allies spent the entire Cold War doing anything they could to destabilize, undermine and destroy almost every secular regime, organization, and movement in the Muslim world, including equipping, training, recruiting, organizing and financing their Islamist enemies. It wasn't just Afghanistan.

    That's kinda what pisses me off about Western governments and politicians bitching about the threat of Islam-- they helped create the current threat we face in the first place.
    fuck you
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #109 - March 20, 2010, 09:25 PM
    That's very true. The end of the soviet union and a victory of the west also coincided with a sort of ideological victory for islamism throughout the muslim world. Oddly enough, the soviet influence would have been a lot better for the development on the islamic world since the west usually sided with more religiously inclined demagogues. There were exceptions like the shah of Iran of course. And also... were our secularists and leftists political groups/leaders any good really? They were mostly self-serving tyrannical despots in any case.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #110 - March 21, 2010, 07:44 AM
    This is a great piece (from 2005 but still relevant IMO) on Islamophobia by Kenan Malik: http://www.kenanmalik.com/essays/prospect_islamophobia.html

    I see this conflation in academia, this constant need for defending Islam from any criticism by painting Muslims as some sort of mentally challenged babies whose pacifier ("respect" for Islam) we should stay far away from. Nevermind that there are half a dozen different Muslim Student Associations on campus, nevermind that there's some seminar or convention or talk on "Islamophobia" organized by any of these MSA's, almost on a weekly basis. Nevermind that while there are tons of courses that focus on critical examination of Christianity and other religions, all the courses on Islam are either about paying lip-service to the "history" of Islam in various parts of the world, or perpetual whining about how its adherents are treated in the west, or consist of "classic exegesis" of the Quran. Critical thinking is venerated in academia, but only when it's NOT turned towards Islam or Muslims in any way at all.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
     Reply #111 - March 21, 2010, 12:54 PM

    Mehdi Hasan, who we've been talking about on the "The Big Question: Islam" thread, is an arch purveyor of the 'Islamophobia' canard, its a reflex for him - he of the 'kuffars are of no intelligence and like animals and cattle' speech.

    He is a perfect example of how this word is abused, and all that is wrong with how it is used.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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