About your videos

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Re: About your videos
Reply #60 - March 17, 2010, 10:08 AM

Quote from: Kenan on March 17, 2010, 10:03 AM
A short version:
those who claim to act directly on behalf of Allah can get away with anything, including blowing up thousands of innocent bystanders, since clearly, a direct link to Allah justifies the violation of any merely human constraints and considerations.

i think not....
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Re: About your videos
Reply #61 - March 17, 2010, 10:12 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 17, 2010, 10:08 AM
If I were talking to you man to man and said to you "Will you please tell me about Muhammad" what would you feel? Would you get a sudden rush of emotion? Would you feel love and adoration? I can say that every practising Muslim who has ever told me about Muhammad has shown this response, their face lights up, their eyes soften, their voices soften, quite frankly they love him.

Now recently a messenger from DHL came and delivered a really nice Google phone to my house. Although I was most pleased to receive the phone I do not project those happy feelings onto the messenger who delivered it to my door because that would be illogical.

So, how would YOU feel? Be honest, the Quran says you cannot lie

I love and respect a good many spiritual lights....all the prophets have a place in my heart of respect. But worship is definitely out...Do you not respect any individuals in this world.....and if you do have some you respect....do you worship them.....your statements are silly. By definition of the monotheism of Islam muslims do not worship muhammad. If your understanding is really this far out its no wonder you left (what you thought was) Islam
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Re: About your videos
Reply #62 - March 17, 2010, 10:14 AM

Quote from: lightrays on March 17, 2010, 09:53 AM
ultimately the reward of good is good (Heaven)

That's wrong. The reward for good AND BELIEVING is heaven. "He who does good and believes". So not only do you have to be good, but you have to be gullible too. I give money to charity, I do it for entirely selfless reasons - that is morally much better than giving it for selfish reasons however the result is the same so I don't care.

What amases me though is that people believe in the Quran at all. It is obvious that Muhammad believed the Sun and Moon orbited the Earth.

Quran 91:01-02
By the sun and his brightness
And the moon when she followeth him

The ONLY way the Moon follows the Sun is relative to your view standing on the Earth. The reality is that the Moon doesn't even follow the same orbit of the Sun and therefore it is impossible for the Moon to follow the Sun. How can anyone excuse this blatant error? What kind of ridiculous mental acrobatics are involved in dismissing this massive cosmological error by the all mighty?

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Re: About your videos
Reply #63 - March 17, 2010, 10:16 AM

Quote from: lightrays on March 17, 2010, 10:12 AM
I love and respect a good many spiritual lights....all the prophets have a place in my heart of respect. But worship is definitely out...Do you not respect any individuals in this world.....and if you do have some you respect....do you worship them.....your statements are silly. By definition of the monotheism of Islam muslims do not worship muhammad. If your understanding is really this far out its no wonder you left (what you thought was) Islam

I respect many people, love is reserved for people I know personally.

Now I didn't say you worship Muhammad, I was pointing out that you adore him. You are unable to perceive the notion of God without it including Muhammad.

Cult: a system of religious worship directed towards a particular figure or object

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Re: About your videos
Reply #64 - March 17, 2010, 10:16 AM

Quote from: lightrays on March 17, 2010, 09:56 AM
we have quoted the quran saying good is its own reward ...

Hopefully you do realize that some other bits of the same book say things that directly contravene this?

For example according to Quran my reward for living a moral life will most certainly be Jahannam. Because there is no morality outside Allah!

Quote from: lightrays on March 17, 2010, 10:08 AM
i think not....

What I profound and hard hitting answer. You really are an intellectual titan.

But you are free to think whatever you want and even publicly express it.

This forum is not KSA - nobody will chop your head off because of it.
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Re: About your videos
Reply #65 - March 17, 2010, 10:22 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 17, 2010, 10:16 AM
I respect many people, love is reserved for people I know personally.

Now I didn't say you worship Muhammad, I was pointing out that you adore him. You are unable to perceive the notion of God without it including Muhammad.

Cult: a system of religious worship directed towards a particular figure or object

Ok so would you say the role of muhammad is more or less central to islam than say Jesus to Christians. Presumably you would agree it is less, ie no divinity, fallible etc...I am happy to say I love and respect Muhammad as Abraham. The quran even tells us as you may know not to differentiate between the profits or exaggerate their status so Muhammad is equal to moses, Joseph or any of the prophets... You are barking up the wrong tree here, it is Christian theology that has (mistakenly in my opinion) raised the status of the prophet Jesus above the reality and ascribed divinity.
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Re: About your videos
Reply #66 - March 17, 2010, 10:27 AM

Quote from: Kenan on March 17, 2010, 10:16 AM
Hopefully you do realize that some other bits of the same book say things that directly contravene this?

. Because there is no morality outside Allah!

of course there isn't.
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Re: About your videos
Reply #67 - March 17, 2010, 10:29 AM

to say all morality proceeds from God is no contradiction. All creation proceeds from God
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Re: About your videos
Reply #68 - March 17, 2010, 10:34 AM

Quote from: lightrays on March 17, 2010, 10:22 AM
Ok so would you say the role of muhammad is more or less central to islam than say Jesus to Christians. Presumably you would agree it is less, ie no divinity, fallible etc...I am happy to say I love and respect Muhammad as Abraham. The quran even tells us as you may know not to differentiate between the profits or exaggerate their status so Muhammad is equal to moses, Joseph or any of the prophets... You are barking up the wrong tree here, it is Christian theology that has (mistakenly in my opinion) raised the status of the prophet Jesus above the reality and ascribed divinity.

I agree that Christianity is worse, but that doesn't change the facts about Islam. Muhammad is a central point, your shahadah even includes "and Muhammad is his messenger" - his role is vital to your religious belief, he is center stage along with Allah. Even the Quran repeatedly says "Allah and his apostle".

Trying to deflect attention to Christianity is pointless (and very stereotypical by the way), it doesn't change my point in the slightest. Islam is a Muhammad cult.

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Re: About your videos
Reply #69 - March 17, 2010, 10:38 AM

Quote from: lightrays on March 17, 2010, 10:27 AM
of course there isn't.

So why don't you have sex with little girls? Allah permitted it by allowing Muhammad to do it with Aisha when she was 9. Yet in most countries sex with children is morally wrong, why?

Medical research shows that girls under the age of 14 are TWICE as likely to experience a miscarriage, and yet Allah permitted sex with 9 year olds?

1: Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old girl.
2: Muhammad was a perfect example to all men for all time.
3: Man cannot make illegal what Allah has made lawful, so you cannot change it.
4: If you copy his example you are twice as likely to experience a miscarriage.

How does that make any sense? No, morality does not come from God, God comes from morality.

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Re: About your videos
Reply #70 - March 17, 2010, 10:40 AM

And morality changes overtime. We don't fuck kids anymore.
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Re: About your videos
Reply #71 - March 17, 2010, 10:46 AM

Quote from: BlackDog on March 17, 2010, 10:40 AM
And morality changes overtime. We don't fuck kids anymore.

I didn't to start with

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Re: About your videos
Reply #72 - March 17, 2010, 10:51 AM

Quote from: lightrays on March 17, 2010, 10:29 AM
to say all morality proceeds from God is no contradiction. All creation proceeds from God

Man I really don't know what to say. Everything I have written just flew past you. Dialogue of the mutes.

But I'll try for one last time. If you read what I have written really, really, really slowly and carefully you will see why the position that "all morality proceeds from God" is in fact profoundly immoral!
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Re: About your videos
Reply #73 - March 17, 2010, 10:52 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 17, 2010, 10:34 AM
Islam is a Muhammad cult.

lakum dinukum wa liya din.

Islam reveres the role of prophets and the heights of their spirituality....if you want to call that a cult of prophethood fine... the reality is the focus on God from whom morality is derived. Particulars change but the absolutes have a reality beyond time ans space but residing in our soul
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Re: About your videos
Reply #74 - March 17, 2010, 10:53 AM

Quote from: lightrays on March 17, 2010, 10:52 AM
lakum dinukum wa liya din.

Islam reveres the role of prophets and the heights of their spirituality....if you want to call that a cult of prophethood fine... the reality is the focus on God from whom morality is derived. Particulars change but the absolutes have a reality beyond time ans space but residing in our soul

Did you miss the point in the definition where it says it is centred around a specific person? Your religion is centred around everything that Muhammad said and did. That IS a cult.

Now, please explain 91:01-02 to me? How can the Moon follow the Sun?

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Re: About your videos
Reply #75 - March 17, 2010, 10:54 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 17, 2010, 10:46 AM
I didn't to start with

Bloody puritans.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
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Re: About your videos
Reply #76 - March 17, 2010, 10:56 AM

“Cognitive dissonance is strong with this one!”
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Re: About your videos
Reply #77 - March 17, 2010, 10:58 AM

Quote from: Kenan on March 17, 2010, 10:51 AM
Man I really don't know what to say. Everything I have written just flew past you. Dialogue of the mutes.

But I'll try for one last time. If you read what I have written really, really, really slowly and carefully you will see why the position that "all morality proceeds from God" is in fact profoundly immoral!

in your opinion...(that is because you do not comprehend the nature of God). But in my opinion morality proceeds from God (because God is).
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Re: About your videos
Reply #78 - March 17, 2010, 11:04 AM

Quote from: lightrays on March 17, 2010, 10:58 AM
in your opinion...(that is because you do not comprehend the nature of God). But in my opinion morality proceeds from God (because God is).

Then how do you account for the fact that not only was sex with children Moral in the 7th century but that God also TOLD Muhammad to marry a little girl and consummate his marriage with her, but now it is socially immoral to have sex with a child? I presume YOU find it socially immoral?

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Re: About your videos
Reply #79 - March 17, 2010, 11:05 AM

Quote from: Kenan on March 17, 2010, 10:51 AM
Man I really don't know what to say. Everything I have written just flew past you. Dialogue of the mutes.

really, really, really slowly... "all morality proceeds from God" is in fact profoundly immoral!

Lets see.... All creation in space time is contingent on the one force, God....He created a time space continuum and placed in it souls drawn of his essence and charged them with a spiritual journey to reconnect with their true nature.

You might not beleive this but it is a logical argument requiring a leap of faith to 'believe' in God in the first place. That means logical proof for or against cannot come down decisively one way or the other. The faculty that can know God is a deeper one.

If one is however a theist and does see God as the source of all things then it follows that bringing our soul in line with that true reality is Good and in that senses morality derives from God.

That is my belief and in this generalist sense the belief of all theist religions.
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Re: About your videos
Reply #80 - March 17, 2010, 11:06 AM

Sophistry.

You obviously haven't understood a thing I have written.

Again:

“Cognitive dissonance is strong with this one!”
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Have a nice day!
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Re: About your videos
Reply #81 - March 17, 2010, 11:08 AM

Quote from: lightrays on March 17, 2010, 11:05 AM
If one is however a theist and does see God as the source of all things then it follows that bringing our soul in line with that true reality is Good and in that senses morality derives from God.

Which means that morality is immutable, set in stone so to speak In which case, why was it moral to have sex with children in the 7th century but not in the 21st? Why did morality change for the better? Why wasn't it in the perfect "better" state to start with?

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Re: About your videos
Reply #82 - March 17, 2010, 11:09 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 17, 2010, 11:04 AM
Then how do you account for the fact that not only was sex with children Moral in the 7th century but that God also TOLD Muhammad to marry a little girl and consummate his marriage with her, but now it is socially immoral to have sex with a child? I presume YOU find it socially immoral?

Morality in its absolute is an unchangeable essence of God. Particular human constructions of moral actions change through place and time. Presumably you have no problem with such moral relativism and all religions to a greater or lesser degree incorporate such and understanding.
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Re: About your videos
Reply #83 - March 17, 2010, 11:10 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 17, 2010, 11:08 AM
Which means that morality is immutable, set in stone so to speak In which case, why was it moral to have sex with children in the 7th century but not in the 21st? Why did morality change for the better? Why wasn't it in the perfect "better" state to start with?

Morality in its absolute is an unchangeable essence of God. Particular human constructions of moral actions change through place and time. Presumably you have no problem with such moral relativism and all religions to a greater or lesser degree incorporate such and understanding.
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Re: About your videos
Reply #84 - March 17, 2010, 11:11 AM

Quote from: lightrays on March 17, 2010, 11:09 AM
Morality in its absolute is an unchangeable essence of God. Particular human constructions of moral actions change through place and time. Presumably you have no problem with such moral relativism and all religions to a greater or lesser degree incorporate such and understanding.

So considering God told Muhammad to marry a 6 year old girl and allowed him to consummate the marriage with her when she was 9 this means that in the case of marriage we know the absolute moral stance, right? If it was explicitly revealed then we know it absolutely, would you agree?

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Re: About your videos
Reply #85 - March 17, 2010, 11:15 AM

no quite the contrary, cultural practices relating to age of marriage, polygamy, sexual practices are rooted in moral absolutes certainly but customary practice and acceptable bounds are very much particular to circumstance.
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Re: About your videos
Reply #86 - March 17, 2010, 11:17 AM

Quote from: lightrays on March 17, 2010, 11:15 AM
no quite the contrary, cultural practices relating to age of marriage, polygamy, sexual practices are rooted in moral absolutes certainly but customary practice and acceptable bounds are very much particular to circumstance.

I'm sorry but that makes no sense. God specifically told Muhammad he could marry a young girl and allowed him to consumate the marriage when she was 9, and some how that indicates it is NOT moral to marry a girl of 9 and have sex with her?

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Re: About your videos
Reply #87 - March 17, 2010, 11:24 AM

I dont get your point. What is moral or immoral derives from God in my opinion. In yours you said something like "morality does not come from God". I then indicated to you that particular actions are moral or immoral dependent on time and place measured against the immutable essence of good. So age of marriage, like many other aspects of social behaviour are not dictated but left open to particular circumstance. Marriage 30 years above or below your age is a feature of human society and not necessarily good or evil it depends on circumstance and intention.
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Re: About your videos
Reply #88 - March 17, 2010, 11:31 AM

Quote from: lightrays on March 17, 2010, 11:24 AM
I dont get your point. What is moral or immoral derives from God in my opinion. In yours you said something like "morality does not come from God". I then indicated to you that particular actions are moral or immoral dependent on time and place measured against the immutable essence of good. So age of marriage, like many other aspects of social behaviour are not dictated but left open to particular circumstance. Marriage 30 years above or below your age is a feature of human society and not necessarily good or evil it depends on circumstance and intention.

Okay, let me try again.

If God EXPLICITLY states that a particular action is morally lawful - does that make it lawful?

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Re: About your videos
Reply #89 - March 17, 2010, 11:37 AM

you were referring to age of marriage which is not explicitly stated as an obligation...but perhaps you have an example of a specifically stated action that is moral
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