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Theme Changer

 Topic: Warmongering Islam

 (Read 21722 times)
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  • Warmongering Islam
     OP - March 18, 2010, 07:10 PM

    Please list all Quranic verses, hadith etc in this thread that prove Islam is "warmongering".

    Thanks!

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #1 - March 18, 2010, 07:14 PM

    care to put your post in context?

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  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #2 - March 18, 2010, 07:16 PM

    I suppose I want to have the resources available to make the point that Islam is an aggressive and violent ideology. I'm having a discussion with a muslim friend and I'm sure the conversation will go in that direction.
    I would like to be prepared for it, before hand  Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #3 - March 18, 2010, 07:18 PM

    Check out this site, the Prophet of Doom. Its an extremist, hate filled site, but it has all the warmongering surahs & hadiths you'll want.  Afro

    I'm too lazy to list all of them. Plus check out Peruvian's "Unethical\Queationable hadiths & surahs." That has a host of unpleasant stuff from Islamic texts, surahs & hadiths justifying misogyny, racism, stupidity & violence. Its on this site itself.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #4 - March 18, 2010, 07:21 PM

    I think this might help and covers the most salient points, its the excerpt on the Violence section from my blog in my signature..

    Quote from: Islame's Blog
    4)   Violence

    The Quran is filled with many threats thrown at non-believers but the Quran says that it is Allah who causes people to believe or not believe
     
    Quran 7:177  "He whom God guideth is the guided, and whom he misleadeth shall be the lost."
    Quran 76:5 "We have prepared chains, collars, and a blazing fire for the kafirs"
    Quran 16:95  "Had God pleased, He could have made you one people: but He causeth whom He will to err, and whom He will He guideth: and ye shall assuredly be called to account for your doings."

     
    So, if God can cause people to not believe, then why would he punish them when they didn’t?
     
    Quran 9:5 "And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is Gracious, Merciful."
     
    Sura 8:12
    SHAKIR: I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.


    This is another quote from the scriptures of what some might describe as the most peaceful religion.
     
    Quran 9:29  "Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled. Yet if they turn to God and observe prayer, and pay the tax, then are they your brethren in religion. We make clear our signs to those who understand."
    Quran 9:11-12     "But if, after alliance made, they break their oaths and revile your religion, then do battle with the ring-leaders of infidelity - for no oaths are binding with them - that they may desist."


    Below is what al-Ghazali actually wrote about jihad war, and the treatment of the vanquished non-Muslim (dhimmi) peoples (from the Wagjiz, written in year 1101):
     
    “One must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year...one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children.  One may set fire to them and/or drown them...If a person of the Ahl  al-Kitab (People of The Book, Jews and Christians, typically) is enslaved, his marriage is automatically revoked. A woman and her child taken into slavery should not be separated...One may cut down their trees...One must destroy their useless books.
    Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide...they may steal as much food as they need”


    This following quote was used to justify the September 11, 2001 attacks.

    Quran 8:39-40  Say to the infidels: If they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven them, but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's

    These directions from the Quran are effectively encouraging followers to coerce others into following Islam, even if they do not want to – either by tax or by force. Some might even argue that this is how Islam grew from desert Arabia to the rest of the world.


    + see blog for section on Banu Qurayza massacre when the prophet accosted Medina after leaving Mecca.

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  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #5 - March 18, 2010, 07:23 PM

    thanks a lot Rashna and Islame, will check all this out.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #6 - March 18, 2010, 08:17 PM

    Hey, don't neglect the tafsirs. Ones like that of Maududi and Ibn Kathir paint a particularly bellicose picture of Islam.

    Maududi essentially asserts that surah 9 contains the order for Muslims to fight against non-Muslims to bring them under the authority of the Islamic state.

    Maududi on 9:29:

    "28  This is the aim of Jihad with the Jews and the Christians and it is not to force them to become Muslims and adopt the `Islamic Way of Life.' They should be forced to pay Jizyah in order to put an end to their independence and supremacy so that they should not remain rulers and sovereigns in the land. These powers should be wrested from them by the followers of the true Faith, who should assume the sovereignty and lead others towards the Right Way, while they should become their subjects and pay jizyah"

    "28 At first this Command applied only to the Jews and the Christians. Then the Holy Prophet himself extended it to the Zoroastrians also. After his death, his Companions unanimously applied this rule to all the non-Muslim nations outside Arabia."

    You can find his tafsir at: http://www.englishtafsir.com/

    As for Ibn Kathir (www.tafsir.com):

    On 48:28:

    "The Good News that Muslims will conquer the Known World, and ultimately the Entire World

    Allah the Exalted and Most Honored said, while delivering the glad tidings to the believers that the Messenger will triumph over his enemies and the rest of the people of the earth,"

    9:29-30:

    "Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because They are Idolators and Disbelievers"

    "(and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated."

    -- See the pact of Umar

    On 9:73 quoting from Ibn 'Abbas:

    9:73 Ibn `Abbas said, "Allah commanded the Prophet to fight the disbelievers with the sword, to strive against the hypocrites with the tongue and annulled lenient treatment of them.''

    On 9:123

    "whenever Muslims overcame an Ummah, they moved to the next one, and then the next one, crushing the tyranical evil doers. They did this in reverence to Allah's statement 9:123"

    "We ask Allah to help the Muslims gain control over the forelocks of His disbeliever enemies and to raise high the word of Muslims over all lands."

    Tafsir al-Jalalayn has some pretty incriminating stuff in it too. That is, the abrogation of peaceful verses like 60:8 and defensive ones like 2:190. That is, the stipulation of not initiating fighting is abrogated according to as-Suyuti.

    It's fair enough that all these tafasir were written during the Middle Ages so it's not surprising that they're so violent and belligerent. The problem is that when you discuss this stuff with Muslims they'll often just insist that you're simply taking things out of context or intentionally misrepresenting things. And they make this charge without providing so much of a shred of evidence to support it.

    That's total b.s., of course. There certainly are violent interpretations of Islam, and they're not helping themselves by burying their heads in the sand.
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #7 - March 18, 2010, 08:22 PM

    Muslims will easily dismiss the tafsirs as being a product of medieval times - which to a certain extent they are right about.

    I once mentioned and pointed our some belligerent statements by Al Ghazali who stated that a *true* muslim ruler that borders non muslims states should go on minimum yearly raids and invasions of neighbouring kafirs in order to keep them down and humble them.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #8 - March 18, 2010, 08:57 PM

    Muslims will easily dismiss the tafsirs as being a product of medieval times - which to a certain extent they are right about.


    Well, Maududi was a mainstream and modern day interpreter of Islam.

    The problem is that orthodox tradition developed throughout the medieval period, so these interpretations are intrinsic to Islamic ideology. They're not just the writings of some fringe whackjob.

    Of course, Muslims may very well say that these interpretations were devised in a very different time and setting, and they're right. But that still doesn't nullify the influence of these ideas. There will still be modern-day Muslims, like Maududi, who believe that these interpretations are still very much valid and as such, should be applied.

    The thing that bothers me is that when you discuss these things with Muslims they will often simply deny that these interpretations exist at all. That's the problem. There is no way to counteract a problem if you won't even acknowledge that it exists.
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #9 - March 18, 2010, 09:00 PM

    I agree with you completely. These scholars, even the medieval ones, are hugely influential on mainstream Islam as we know it. And yes, muslims will deny the very existence of this thinking in Islam at all. I once had a close family member tell me that "apostasy does not exist in classical islamic thought". Huh?

    How do you debate with such amazing levels of ignorance and denial? Its jarring.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #10 - March 18, 2010, 09:27 PM

    Another relevent except
    Quote from: Islames Blog
    5)   Pillaging

    After fighting, believers have a right to the infidel’s houses.

    Quran 33:27 “And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and to a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things.” 

    Islamic apologists will comb the Quran for “good” quotes and take it as proof that the Quran is peaceful.  There is a quote in the Quran which says Muslims can have their religion and other people can have theirs.  This is fine until you find in the Quran it says other religions may exist with Muslims, but they are to live as second class citizens by in effect paying taxes to Muslims.

    Quran 9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

    It makes me wonder how Muslims would feel if they had to pay a separate tax to the Christians for living in the West?


    6) Banu Qurayza

    Sahih Muslim 19:4368 ‘ The people of Quraiza surrendered. The Messenger of Allah said to Abu Sa'id al-Khudri: These people have surrendered accepting your decision. He (Sa'id) said: You will kill their fighters and capture their women and children. Hearing this, the Prophet said: You have adjudged by the command of Allah.

    Sahih Muslim 19:4370 ‘ Sa'd was wounded on the day of the Battle of the Ditch. When the Messenger of Allah returned from the Ditch and laid down his arms and took a bath, the angel Gabriel appeared to him and said: You have laid down arms. By God, we haven't yet laid them down. So march against them. The Messenger of Allah asked: Where’ He pointed to Banu Quraiza. So the Messenger of Allah fought against them. They surrendered at the command of the Messenger of Allah but referred the decision about them to Sa'd who said: I decide about them that those of them who can fight be killed, their women and children taken prisoners and their properties distributed among the Muslims.

    Sunan Abu Dawud 38-4390 - Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi: I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. The Muslims examined us, and those who had begun to grow pubic hair were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.


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  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #11 - March 18, 2010, 09:32 PM

    Actually, the whole story is quite powerful, so will paste it here too

    Quote from: Islame's Blog
    i)   The Banu Qurayzah Massacre

    Once the prophet was banished from Mecca, he took a band of followers onto Medina.  Upon reaching Medina he made a non war pact with the Jews as his followers continued to grow.  However this peaceful treaty was broken when  the Medinan Jews surrounded themselves in a compound as Meccan soldiers advanced into their territory. The prophet took this opportunity to surround their compound and then decided to siege & fight them.

    After the siege was lifted Muhammad relaxed to have a bath when the angel Gabriel appeared to him indicating that the battle had not been completed while pointing to the direction of the Banu Qurayzah tribe. Muhammad promptly marched with three thousand men against the Qurayzah Jews. The besieged Jews who were wary of this eventuality surrendered. The men were rounded up and the women and children placed with the spoils of war. To distinguish between man and boy Muhammad had all those on the cusp of manhood checked for the existence of pubic hair. He then placed the decision on the plight of the tribe in the hands of one of his chiefs, Sa'd, who had been wounded in the battle. His judgment was that the men should be put to death, the women and children sold into slavery, and the spoil divided among the Muslims. Muhammad responded ‘Truly, the judgment of Sa'd is the judgment of the Lord, pronounced on high from above the seventh heaven.’

    During the night, trenches were dug in the marketplace. As the day dawned Muhammad commanded the male captives to be brought out in groups of five at a time. They were made to sit in a row at the edge of the trench while the women and children witnessed the downward swing of the sword through the necks of their husbands, fathers, sons and brothers; their bodies then being cast into the trench. The slaughter lasted all day and continued by torchlight into the night. An estimated 800 to 900 men met their demise on that faithful day.

    As part of his one fifth share of the booty Muhammad selected the beautiful teenage bride, Rehana, daughter of the Qurayzah chief, for himself. A strong headed woman she refused to convert to Islam or marry the prophet. Muhammad’s options were either to kill her or add her to his list of concubines of which he chose the latter.


    From Sirat Rasul Allah

    At noon of the same day Gabriel came to the apostle, wearing a silken turban and riding on a mule saddled with brocade. He said, 'Hast thou put away thy arms, apostle of Allah’' He replied, 'Yes', and Gabriel said, 'But the angels have not yet put away theirs. I have come here to call the people to follow the command of Allah and march against the Banu Qurayza. I go myself to make them tremble.'

    Therefore the apostle of Allah ordered it to be proclaimed that none should hold afternoon prayers until they reached the Jewish stronghold.{Prayers were put on hold for the more important task of battle.}

    The apostle of Allah besieged the Qurayza for twenty five days until they were distressed, and Allah struck fear into their hearts.

    In the morning the Qurayza came down from their fort to surrender to the apostle of Allah.

    Said pronounced the following sentence, 'I decree that the men be killed, the property be divided, and the women with their children be made captives.' The apostle of Allah said, 'Thou hast decided according to the will of Allah, above the seven firmaments.'

    Trenches were dug in the market place. Then he sent for the men and had their heads struck off so that they fell in the trenches.

    Aisha, the wife of the apostle, said, 'Only one of their women was killed. By Allah! She was with me, talking and laughing, while the apostle slaughtered her countrymen in the market’place; and when her name was called, I asked, ‘What is this for’’ and she replied, ‘I am going to be slain!’ I asked why and she answered, ‘For something I have done!’ Then she was taken away, and her head was struck off. But I shall never cease to marvel at her good humour and laughter, although she knew that she was to die.’

    The apostle distributed the property of the Banu Qurayza, as well as their women and children, to the Muslims, reserving one fifth for himself.

    The apostle dispatched an emissary to Najd with some prisoners, to barter them as slaves in exchange for horses and camels.

    The apostle of Allah selected one of the Jewish women, Re’hana, for himself, and she remained with him as his slave (concubine) until she died.


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  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #12 - March 18, 2010, 09:37 PM


    Banu Qurayza really exhausted my patience with Mohammad. Ayesha was bad enough, but that was the end of any relativising a la Karen Armstrong I used to do.

    When Muslims justify it, I get really annoyed.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #13 - March 18, 2010, 09:43 PM

    Check out this site, the Prophet of Doom. Its an extremist, hate filled site, but it has all the warmongering surahs & hadiths you'll want.  Afro

    That site is very biased towards islam and muslims.The sole purpose of it is to ridicule islam.
    The quran says killing a human is like killing the whole humanity and saving a life of human is like saving live of entire humanity.
    islam forbids slaughter of innocent non-combatants in war and killings of women and children.

    "When one bright intellect meets another bright intellect, the light increases and the Way becomes clear -- Rumi
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #14 - March 18, 2010, 09:45 PM

    That site is very biased towards islam and muslims.The sole purpose of it is to ridicule islam.
    The quran says killing a human is like killing the whole humanity and saving a life of human is like saving live of entire humanity.
    islam forbids slaughter of innocent non-combatants in war and killings of women and children.

    *cough* *Banu Qurayza* *cough* *splutter*

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  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #15 - March 18, 2010, 09:58 PM

    That site is very biased towards islam and muslims.The sole purpose of it is to ridicule islam.
    The quran says killing a human is like killing the whole humanity and saving a life of human is like saving live of entire humanity.
    islam forbids slaughter of innocent non-combatants in war and killings of women and children.


    So why did Mohammad murder all those people of the Banu Qurayza?

    Also, Islam is very elastic in defining who is innocent and who isn't.

    You see asif, on many other websites and forums and discussions, with kuffars who are desperate to believe that what you say is true, because they don't want to think about the horror of it all, you might get away with this line of bullshit. But you're on the wrong place to peddle it here. We know too much, we know the truth.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #16 - March 18, 2010, 10:01 PM

    Please list all Quranic verses, hadith etc in this thread that prove Islam is "warmongering".

    Thanks!


    There is a detailed account of Jihad and it's types (including Offensive Jihad - attacking non-Muslim countries to spread Islam) here:

    PDF file:
    http://www.e-prism.org/images/The_Ruling_on_Jihad_and_its_Divisions_-_Yousef_Uyery.pdf


    And "Was Islam Spread by the Sword"? (Basically: Yes)

    http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/43087/islam%20spread%20by%20the%20sword

    And your question reminded me of this guy - Abdullah Azzam, the father of the modern day Jihadi movement - his speeches were really scary - read this for example:

    http://darulislam.info/Sections-article80-p1.html


    NOTE: This is all Salafi stuff - moderates and modernists etc... would reject their take on things - but regardless of what modernists say, the Salafis and their like certainly represent a valid interpretation of Islam - even if it is not the only one.
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #17 - March 18, 2010, 10:04 PM

    Azzam was such a cheery chappy - quote:

    "History does not write its lines except with blood. Glory does not build its lofty edifice except with skulls, Honour and respect cannot be established except on a foundation of cripples and corpses."
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #18 - March 18, 2010, 10:04 PM


    Just listen to the speeches on youtube of someone like Anwar al Awlaki, these jehadi preachers quote openly and proudly from scripture and tradition.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #19 - March 18, 2010, 10:14 PM

    This is a PDF book on Al-Wala' wa al-Bara' = Love and Hate for the sake of Allah which kind means Muslims will be in perpetual war against the Kuffar.

    http://www.kalamullah.com/Books/alWalaawalBaraa1.pdf

    NOTE: This is all Salafi stuff - moderates and modernists etc... would reject their take on things - but regardless of what modernists say, the Salafis and their like certainly represent a valid interpretation of Islam - even if it is not the only one.
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #20 - March 18, 2010, 10:16 PM

    I think the whole of Surah 9 really seemed to cement the idea that offensive jihad is a legitimate tool that can be used to propagate Islam further and really bothered me when I was a Muslim. No matter how many 'contexts' apologetic excuses you make for it, offensive war is a permissible reading of the verses.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #21 - March 18, 2010, 10:23 PM

    That site is very biased towards islam and muslims.The sole purpose of it is to ridicule islam.
    The quran says killing a human is like killing the whole humanity and saving a life of human is like saving live of entire humanity.
    islam forbids slaughter of innocent non-combatants in war and killings of women and children.


    *yawn" asif, stop obsessing over Sikhs for a while & try to take a long hard look at the many myths of Muhammad & myths of Islam you've been indoctrinated into for years.

    Muhammad himself ordered or condoned the killing of quite a few women, the rest he took as sex slaves, for his sexual indulgence & for his band of jihadis. Tongue

    Guru Nanak, founder of Sikhism, never did such appalling stuff.Nor can any Sikh Guru surpass Mo in sexual debauchery & unneccessary violence  Roll Eyes

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #22 - March 18, 2010, 10:29 PM

    I think the whole of Surah 9 really seemed to cement the idea that offensive jihad is a legitimate tool that can be used to propagate Islam further and really bothered me when I was a Muslim. No matter how many 'contexts' apologetic excuses you make for it, offensive war is a permissible reading of the verses.


    Here's a good article on the offensive jihad permitted in Surah 9. Its by Robert Spencer, but its really good.

    It mentions what some extremely prominent Muslim tafsir writers thought of Surah 9, & how it still justifies violence in the present date.

    Quote
    Many traditional Islamic theologians and Qur'an commentators argue that violent material, such as sura 9, abrogates more relatively tolerant material such as sura 109. This is not a newly-minted view "cherry-picked" by Osama bin Laden; it is in fact a very ancient view. When discussing why Muhammad didn't begin sura 9 with the customary invocation bismillah ar-rahman ar-rahim, "in the name of Allah, the compassionate, the merciful," an intriguing answer comes from a Qur'an commentary that is still highly valued today in the Islamic world, Tafsir al-Jalalayn. This is a fifteenth-century work by the renowned imams Jalal al-Din Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Mahalli (1389-1459) and Jalal al-Din ‘Abd al-Rahman ibn Abi Bakr al-Suyuti (1445-1505). The invocation, suggests this tafsir, “is security, and [Sura 9] was sent down when security was removed by the sword.”

    Security’s removal by the sword meant specifically the end of many treaties the Muslims had made with non-Muslims. Another still-influential Qur'an commentator, Ibn Kathir (1301-1372) quotes an earlier authority, Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim, to establish that the Verse of the Sword, sura 9:5 ("slay the unbelievers wherever you find them") “abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term.” He adds from another authority: “No idolater had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara’ah was revealed.” And yet another early commentator, Ibn Juzayy (d. 1340) agrees that one of this verse’s functions is “abrogating every peace treaty in the Qur’an.”

    This idea is crucial as a guide to the relationship of the Qur’an’s peaceful passages to its violent ones. Suras 16, 29, 52, 73, and 109 — the sources of many of the Qur'an's verses of peace and tolerance — are all Meccan. That means that many Muslims, guided by commentators such as those above and the imams who teach from them, see these suras only in light of what was revealed later in Medina. Being the last or next-to-last sura revealed, sura 9 is generally understood as being the Qur’an’s last word on jihad, and all the rest of the book — including the “tolerance verses” — must be read in its light.

    Ibn Kathir states this explicitly in his commentary on another “tolerance verse”: “And he [Muhammad] saith: O my Lord! Lo! these are a folk who believe not. Then bear with them (O Muhammad) and say: Peace. But they will come to know” (Qur'an 43:88-89). The commentator explains that “say Salam (peace!) means, ‘do not respond to them in the same evil manner in which they address you; but try to soften their hearts and forgive them in word and deed.’” However, that is not the last word on the subject. As Ibn Kathir notes: “But they will come to know. This is a warning from Allah for them. His punishment, which cannot be warded off, struck them, and His religion and His word was supreme. Subsequently Jihad and striving were prescribed until the people entered the religion of Allah in crowds, and Islam spread throughout the east and the west.”

    In other words, Muhammad gave peace a chance, with the pacific suras, and then understood that jihad was the better course.

    This view is also echoed by Muhammad's first biographer, the eighth-century chronicler Ibn Ishaq, as well as by another Islamic theologian, Ibn Qayyim, who is invoked by the twentieth-century jihadist Sayyid Qutb in support of the same view. And a modern-day Chief Justice of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh ‘Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Humaid, has taught that in the Qur'an, “at first ‘the fighting’ was forbidden, then it was permitted and after that it was made obligatory.” He also distinguishes two groups Muslims must fight: “(1) against them who start ‘the fighting’ against you (Muslims) . . . (2) and against all those who worship others along with Allah . . . as mentioned in Surat Al-Baqarah (II), Al-Imran (III) and At-Taubah (IX) . . . and other Surahs (Chapters of the Qur’an).” (The Roman numerals after the names of the chapters of the Qur’an are the numbers of the Suras: Sheikh ‘Abdullah is referring to verses such as 2:216, 3:157-158, 9:5, and 9:29.)

    This understanding of the Qur’an isn’t limited to the Wahhabi sect, to which Sheikh ‘Abdullah belongs. The Pakistani Brigadier S. K. Malik’s 1979 book The Qur’anic Concept of War (a book that made its way to the American mujahedin Jeffrey Leon Battle and October Martinique Lewis, and which carried a glowing endorsement from Pakistan’s then-future President Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq, who said that it explained “the ONLY pattern of war” that a Muslim country could legitimately wage) delineates the same stages in the Qur’anic teaching about jihad: “The Muslim migration to Medina brought in its wake events and decisions of far-reaching significance and consequence for them. While in Mecca, they had neither been proclaimed an Ummah [community] nor were they granted the permission to take up arms against their oppressors. In Medina, a divine revelation proclaimed them an ‘Ummah’ and granted them the permission to take up arms against their oppressors. The permission was soon afterwards converted into a divine command making war a religious obligation for the faithful.”

    The three-stage theory of the revelations about jihad, culminating in the command to fight to impose the Islamic social order over the world, is bound up with abrogation, as the earlier stages give way to the later. This is the view of Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Qayyim, Ibn Kathir, the compilers of the Tafsir al-Jalalayn, and a host of other traditional and mainstream Muslim commentators.

     

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #23 - March 18, 2010, 10:30 PM

    The quran says killing a human is like killing the whole humanity and saving a life of human is like saving live of entire humanity.


    The Quran copied that from the Jewish scriptures.

    And the Jewish scriptures themselves were only meaning that killing a jew is like killing all of humanity. The commandments of "thou shalt not kill" in both Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all conditional on the victim being a true believer. Infidels and impious need not apply.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #24 - March 18, 2010, 10:33 PM

    The Quran copied that from the Jewish scriptures.

    And the Jewish scriptures themselves were only meaning that killing a jew is like killing all of humanity. The commandments of "thou shalt not kill" in both Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all conditional on the victim being a true believer. Infidels and impious need not apply.


    lol Ye Hitchens was right when he said the Qur'an was a blatant plagirism of the Bible. Not only with the stories of Maryam and so on but with morality as well.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #25 - March 18, 2010, 10:39 PM

    lol Ye Hitchens was right when he said the Qur'an was a blatant plagirism of the Bible. Not only with the stories of Maryam and so on but with morality as well.


    Not only plagiarism but a regression. Jews & Xtians had greatly progressed morally from what Mo started.

    Plus, Judaism was very much a local religion, it never advocated a global victory & war on unbelievers like Islam did. That made it less of a problem globally, & thats why Jews live in peace in India,Russia, the West & most places sans Israel even today, unlike Muslims. And the NT part of the Bible is a lot more tolerant than the Quran.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #26 - March 18, 2010, 10:41 PM

    lol Ye Hitchens was right when he said the Qur'an was a blatant plagirism of the Bible. Not only with the stories of Maryam and so on but with morality as well.


    If Mo had a laptop:

    Open Bible.doc
    Open Torah.doc
    Ctrl+C
    New file Koran.doc
    Crtl+V
    Google Search: Arabian Tribalism
    Ctrl+C
    Crtl+V
    Save File
    Print

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #27 - March 18, 2010, 10:42 PM

    Not only plagiarism but a regression. Jews & Xtians had greatly progressed morally from what Mo started.


    Look how quickly she comes to the defense of Judaism and Christianity. What a fake.

     Roll Eyes

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #28 - March 18, 2010, 10:45 PM

    Regarding the Quran, I think as most people have commented here that it's surah 9 from which people say makes offensive Jihad permissible. The salafi interpretation that Hassan gave a link for also quotes a verse here and there from surah 9 justifying offensive Jihad. The most potent relevant verses including the so called 'sword verse' appear early in the chapter. Here is what it says:

    (1) A (declaration) of immunity from God and His Apostle, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-

    (2) Go ye, then (Pagans), for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate God (by your falsehood) but that God will cover with shame those who reject Him.

    (3) And an announcement from God and His Apostle, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that God and His Apostle dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate God. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.

    (4) (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfill your engagements with them to the end of the term (of the treaty): for God loveth the righteous.

    (5) When the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

    (6) If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

    (7) How can there be a league, before God and His Apostle, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God doth love the righteous.


    This passage in the Quran was revealed at a time when the Prophet and his followers were at war with the Pagan Arabs at Mecca. However when the verses were revealed, there existed treaties of truce between the Muslims and the Pagan Arabs. Some of the Pagan Arabs adhered to the truce (Verse 4) and some of them did not (Verse 3). God announces that the Pagans therefore have four months (Verse 2) before the Muslims are ordered to attack and take decisive action against them (Verse 5), although it is clear from Verse 4 and Verse 7 that the treaties of truce are still in place for the Pagans who have not attacked or helped anyone attack the Prophet and his followers (For a much more comprehensive commentary see ‘A thematic commentary on the Quran’ by Shakyh Muhammad al-Gazali).

    Terrorists and leaders of fascist groups often cite verse 5, the so-called ‘sword verse’, of this passage when claiming the Quran gives Muslims the sanction to kill innocent people, however, if one were to read the surrounding verses, this claim is very questionable to say the least. I will also point out here for the sake of impartiality that historians such as Patricia Cone state that, given the surrounding verses, Verse 5 is directed against a group of Polytheists who were accused of truce-breaking and aggression and excludes those who adhered to the truce.



    Regarding, the Banu Qurayzah story - this obviously comes from hadith although the Quran does make a reference to the incident. It's worth pointing out that the person responsible for the particular hadith describing the Prophets alleged actions, Ibn Ishaq, was not even born when the incident took place (he was born around 705). It is surprising that there are no other accounts that match his description of what actually occured with the Banu Qurayzah tribe. His father was also a traditionalist who collected and recounted tales of the past and while I can't make any informed comment on the credibility of Ibn Ishaq or the credibility of his sources, whatever they were, I am duly sceptical of his account.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #29 - March 18, 2010, 10:50 PM

    I am duly sceptical of his account.


    No you are not.

    You are against any sort of collective punishment and mass execution because you are a decent human being. You were born a Muslim and are loyal to Islam. Those two aspects of you clash when it comes to this story there for you are faced with the uncomfortable choice of comprimising your innate human morality that is heavily influenced by western humanism or you can reject the story. You realize that living in the 21st century the morals of the prophet are unjustifiable and therefore you do the most convenient thing and simply reject the hadiths to circumvent the issue.

    Good intentions, but intellectual cowardice at it's finest. I was where you were at once, so don't try to fool us. Wink

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

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