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 Topic: Warmongering Islam

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  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #30 - March 18, 2010, 10:52 PM

    Iblis is very right.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #31 - March 18, 2010, 10:55 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 18, 2010, 10:45 PM
    This passage in the Quran was revealed at a time when the Prophet and his followers were at war with the Pagan Arabs at Mecca. However when the verses were revealed, there existed treaties of truce between the Muslims and the Pagan Arabs. Some of the Pagan Arabs adhered to the truce (Verse 4) and some of them did not (Verse 3). God announces that the Pagans therefore have four months (Verse 2) before the Muslims are ordered to attack and take decisive action against them (Verse 5), although it is clear from Verse 4 and Verse 7 that the treaties of truce are still in place for the Pagans who have not attacked or helped anyone attack the Prophet and his followers (For a much more comprehensive commentary see ‘A thematic commentary on the Quran’ by Shakyh Muhammad al-Gazali).



    Hi abuyunus,

    You certainly aren't in a position to tell us at what time such passages were revealed & what the situation of Muslims & pagans was then. Nor can you quote from commentaries, given that you're a hadith denier, & pick & choose what commentaries to accept & reject based on whether they agree with your conscience or not.

    What time which passage was revealed & what the situation of Muslims & pagans was then is narrated in hadiths, I'm allright if you choose to accept hadiths, but you can't pick & choose what hadiths to accept & reject, based on your individual preferences.

    If you accept hadiths, you've to accept the nasty ones as well, where Muhammad tells how he will cleanse Arabia of all faiths, how he exhorts men to kill people based on their disbelief etc.

    If you follow the principle of nice hadith=true hadith & nasty hadith=false hadith, well you may salvage your faith like that, but you're certainly in no position to debate with others.

    If you're telling us how Muslims were persecuted by pagans, how pagans broke treaties etc-please also tell us how Muhammad ordered the mass murderer of Jewish tribes, forcibly converted polytheists by idol smashing & death threats etc.  Smiley Or  Zipit
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #32 - March 18, 2010, 10:57 PM
    Rashna is bang on.   (id like to bang on you in 3 years btw Wink )

    You really cannot say *anything* about the context of the Quran's verses in relation to Mo if you reject the hadith. You have to take the Quran purely for what it says if you reject the hadith. Off with their heads!
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #33 - March 18, 2010, 11:00 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on March 18, 2010, 10:39 PM
    Not only plagiarism but a regression. Jews & Xtians had greatly progressed morally from what Mo started.

    Plus, Judaism was very much a local religion, it never advocated a global victory & war on unbelievers like Islam did. That made it less of a problem globally, & thats why Jews live in peace in India,Russia, the West & most places sans Israel even today, unlike Muslims. And the NT part of the Bible is a lot more tolerant than the Quran.


    lol great, I know all that. That's what I mean all the good stuff in the Qur'an or hadiths it probably got from NT. The Xtians just think you will burn in hell for rejecting God's sacrifice of his son to mankind whereas Islam views itself as a political entity as well as a religion. However on the whole the Bible and Qur'an are comparable in their intolerance, it's just that Jews and Xtians have changed/reformed their religion, Muslims have not.

    Quote from: Iblis on March 18, 2010, 10:42 PM
    Look how quickly she comes to the defense of Judaism and Christianity. What a fake.

     Roll Eyes


    Yup. Always. Makes her feel good that all the other religions are united against Islam so her beloved zoro religion remains protected from criticism and ridicule.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #34 - March 18, 2010, 11:01 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 18, 2010, 10:41 PM
    If Mo had a laptop:

    Open Bible.doc
    Open Torah.doc
    Ctrl+C
    New file Koran.doc
    Crtl+V
    Google Search: Arabian Tribalism
    Ctrl+C
    Crtl+V
    Save File
    Print

    Brilliant   Cheesy
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #35 - March 18, 2010, 11:02 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 18, 2010, 10:50 PM
    No you are not.

    You are against any sort of collective punishment and mass execution because you are a decent human being. You were born a Muslim and are loyal to Islam. Those two aspects of you clash when it comes to this story there for you are faced with the uncomfortable choice of comprimising your innate human morality that is heavily influenced by western humanism or you can reject the story. You realize that living in the 21st century the morals of the prophet are unjustifiable and therefore you do the most convenient thing and simply reject the hadiths to circumvent the issue.

    Good intentions, but intellectual cowardice at it's finest you cannot see that you are moulding Islam to suit the values you earnestly believe it teaches because you are unable to seriously entertain the thought it doesn't. (My EDIT). I was where you were at once, so don't try to fool us. Wink


    I have to pretty much agree with Iblis, Abu Yunus - though with my slight edit above.
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #36 - March 18, 2010, 11:03 PM


    What's that? Islam is shit? Ahura Mazda tell me something I don't know.

    Now if you don't mind I gotta go and peck out some eyeballs.
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #37 - March 18, 2010, 11:06 PM
    Quote from: asif on March 18, 2010, 09:43 PM
    That site is very biased towards islam and muslims.The sole purpose of it is to ridicule islam.
    The quran says killing a human is like killing the whole humanity and saving a life of human is like saving live of entire humanity.
    islam forbids slaughter of innocent non-combatants in war and killings of women and children.


    lol
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #38 - March 18, 2010, 11:07 PM
    Quote from: Heyjustlooking on March 18, 2010, 11:00 PM
    Yup. Always. Makes her feel good that all the other religions are united against Islam so her beloevd zoro religion remains unprotected from criticism and ridicule.


    I have no problem w.r.t. criticism or ridicule of Zoros, but ridiculing it over the most absurd things is neither sensible nor adds anything of value to any debate. Its like criticising Muslims over prayer mats. Roll Eyes

    Quote from: iblis

    Look how quickly she comes to the defense of Judaism and Christianity. What a fake.

     What is "fake" over preferring one religion over another?


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #39 - March 18, 2010, 11:08 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on March 18, 2010, 10:55 PM
    If you're telling us how Muslims were persecuted by pagans, how pagans broke treaties etc-please also tell us how Muhammad ordered the mass murderer of Jewish tribes, forcibly converted polytheists by idol smashing & death threats etc.  Smiley Or  Zipit

    Also let us know how Mecca was taken by Muhammed from the idolators.  Did they just hand it over?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #40 - March 18, 2010, 11:09 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on March 18, 2010, 11:07 PM
    I have no problem w.r.t. criticism or ridicule of Zoros, but ridiculing it over the most absurd things is neither sensible nor adds anything of value to any debate. Its like criticising Muslims over prayer mats. Roll Eyes
     What is "fake" over preferring one religion over another?





    Muslim Shampoo ring any bells?
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #41 - March 18, 2010, 11:11 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on March 18, 2010, 11:03 PM
    (Clicky for piccy!)

    What's that? Islam is shit? Ahura Mazda tell me something I don't know.

    Now if you don't mind I gotta go and peck out some eyeballs.


    I want to contribute sensible stuff to the debate with abuyunus please BlackDog. If you have any worthwhile criticisms or comments to make, please make them, or post these stuff elsewhere.

    You're just hijacking another thread & its not even a thread I started.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #42 - March 18, 2010, 11:12 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 18, 2010, 11:08 PM
    Also let us know how Mecca was taken by Muhammed from the idolators.  Did they just hand it over?


    I remember hearing on the "Big Question" one Sunday morning a Muslim in the audience saying "When Prophet Muhammad conquered Mecca..." A Muslim in the front row corrected her saying: "Liberated!" So she said "Oh yes, sorry, when Prophet Muhammad liberated Mecca... "

    TV cameras are re-writing Islamic history.
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #43 - March 18, 2010, 11:13 PM
    Liberated Mecca from what?  Huh?
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #44 - March 18, 2010, 11:13 PM
    Quote from: Heyjustlooking on March 18, 2010, 11:09 PM
    Muslim Shampoo ring any bells?


    I don't hijack threads on other issues with Muslim shampoos, I let the thread discuss the relevant issue.

    If its a question of violence in Islam, I don't see what vultures & shampoos have to do with that. I don't put them in.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #45 - March 18, 2010, 11:15 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on March 18, 2010, 11:13 PM
    Liberated Mecca from what?  Huh?

    from kaffirdom
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #46 - March 18, 2010, 11:16 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on March 18, 2010, 11:13 PM
    I don't hijack threads on other issues with Muslim shampoos, I let the thread discuss the relevant issue.

    If its a question of violence in Islam, I don't see what vultures & shampoos have to do with that. I don't put them in.




    lol ye i think enough has been said.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #47 - March 18, 2010, 11:17 PM
    I suggest this thread be split so that the resources remain here but the discussion is taken elsewhere,

    thanks for all the information, everyone.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #48 - March 18, 2010, 11:20 PM
    Quote from: z10 on March 18, 2010, 11:17 PM
    I suggest this thread be split so that the resources remain here but the discussion is taken elsewhere,

    thanks for all the information, everyone.


    Also add the links to the resource centre as a pinned topic perhaps.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #49 - March 18, 2010, 11:21 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on March 18, 2010, 11:13 PM
    Liberated Mecca from what?  Huh?


    From the evil polytheists (who God saved 40 years previous to that with birds throwing stones) of course!

    We will also have to change the verse in the Qur'an referring to the Conquest of Mecca - that says "Fath" (Opening up/Conquering/Victory) to "Tahreer" liberation.

    اذا جاء نصر الله والفتح

    To

    اذا جاء نصر الله والتحرير

    Allah simply wasn't PC enough!

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #50 - March 18, 2010, 11:24 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 18, 2010, 10:41 PM
    If Mo had a laptop:

    Open Bible.doc
    Open Torah.doc
    Ctrl+C
    New file Koran.doc
    Crtl+V
    Google Search: Arabian Tribalism
    Ctrl+C
    Crtl+V
    Save File
    Print

    someone remind me to put Iblis up for JOTM
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #51 - March 18, 2010, 11:27 PM
    ^^ Ye man that dude is a funny guy. I'm defo voting him JOTM.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #52 - March 18, 2010, 11:31 PM
    No no no no no. Submissive Bob for the next JOTM!
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #53 - March 18, 2010, 11:33 PM
    I think you deserve it more than SB this month for that one post alone - so i'll let you decide where to send my vote..
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #54 - March 18, 2010, 11:40 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 18, 2010, 11:12 PM
    I remember hearing on the "Big Question" one Sunday morning a Muslim in the audience saying "When Prophet Muhammad conquered Mecca..." A Muslim in the front row corrected her saying: "Liberated!" So she said "Oh yes, sorry, when Prophet Muhammad liberated Mecca... "

    TV cameras are re-writing Islamic history.


    The problem is, there are no Muslim dissenters, or ex Muslims participating in the debates to correct and challenge these things. Non Muslims are too frightened or ignorant to do so. They assert these things with zeal and no regard for the truth.

     
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #55 - March 18, 2010, 11:43 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 18, 2010, 11:24 PM
    someone remind me to put Iblis up for JOTM

    Make an image out of it, and stick it into the meme thread for www circulation Afro
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #56 - March 18, 2010, 11:46 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 18, 2010, 11:02 PM
    I have to pretty much agree with Iblis, Abu Yunus - though with my slight edit above.


    I know you have a personal relationship with AbuYunus and are simply being the good guy and I know you think he's being brave by coming here and talking to us. But true courage is being able to admit when you are defeated and wrong. As an apostate I'm sure you know that this was the hardest thing for you to do, to sit down and say to yourself "what if Islam is man-made?". It's a heart wrenching process and only when I see a Muslim consider that reality will I ever see him as being "courageous".
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #57 - March 19, 2010, 12:07 AM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 18, 2010, 11:46 PM
    I know you have a personal relationship with AbuYunus and are simply being the good guy and I know you think he's being brave by coming here and talking to us. But true courage is being able to admit when you are defeated and wrong. As an apostate I'm sure you know that this was the hardest thing for you to do, to sit down and say to yourself "what if Islam is man-made?". It's a heart wrenching process and only when I see a Muslim consider that reality will I ever see him as being "courageous".


    True but I didn't like it when ppl said things like coward or intellectually dishonest/coward etc... coz it wasn't true - it was just that I believed Islam was from God and was good and anything that contradicted that must be wrong.

    I doubt most people respond to be accused of such things - even if it were true - which I don't think it is.
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #58 - March 19, 2010, 12:10 AM
    I don't think AbuYunus himself is an intellectual coward. It's just some of the steps that is required of keeping that level of denial requires a certain type of cowardice at that moment. We've all done it at one time or another. As muslims how many times have we "fallen back" on faith? I can't count the number of times I've done it.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #59 - March 19, 2010, 12:12 AM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 19, 2010, 12:10 AM
    I don't think AbuYunus himself is an intellectual coward. It's just some of the steps that is required of keeping that level of denial requires a certain type of cowardice at that moment. We've all done it at one time or another. As muslims how many times have we "fallen back" on faith? I can't count the number of times I've done it.


    Yes, I suppose but it's not conscious or devious - more knee-jerk.
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