Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


New Britain
February 17, 2025, 11:51 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
February 15, 2025, 04:00 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
February 14, 2025, 08:00 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
February 13, 2025, 10:07 PM

Muslim grooming gangs sti...
February 13, 2025, 08:20 PM

German nationalist party ...
February 13, 2025, 01:15 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
February 13, 2025, 01:08 PM

Russia invades Ukraine
February 13, 2025, 11:01 AM

Islam and Science Fiction
February 11, 2025, 11:57 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
February 06, 2025, 03:13 PM

Gaza assault
February 05, 2025, 10:04 AM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
February 03, 2025, 09:25 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Warmongering Islam

 (Read 21715 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 34 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #60 - March 19, 2010, 12:14 AM

    It's most definitely not conscious. I totally agree with that. Its just like you're at a great height and you don't want to look down. It's a sort of primal fear.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #61 - March 19, 2010, 02:59 AM

    Actually, the whole story is quite powerful, so will paste it here too



    Islame where did you get this whole story from? The hadith don't seem to have that much detail so where did these other details come from?

    Thanks

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #62 - March 19, 2010, 09:38 AM

    Islame where did you get this whole story from? The hadith don't seem to have that much detail so where did these other details come from?

    Thanks

    Various sources, but I posted it in parts here - take a look at the original blog (Section 4.Violence & 5.Pillaging)  in my signature to see the attributions..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #63 - March 19, 2010, 12:51 PM

    Appart from meditating cowardice, my concerns regarding the Banu Qurayzah story were regarding the credibility of Ibn Ishaqs account. Ibn Ishaq was by trade a traditionalist and story teller like his father. It is important to remember that he was born around 705 so probably wrote the hadith at least a hundered years after the Prophets death. There are no other accounts that match the version of events in his hadith. If I were a professional historian I would be very sceptical regarding the likely veracity of his account - and justifiably so.


    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #64 - March 19, 2010, 12:55 PM

    It's sad thought that neither Allah nor Muhammed thought to be important to preserve history. So people don't go and say "these are simply the tales of our fathers". Of course Mohammed did not have the foresight/wisdom*, and it seems neither did Allah.


    *In fact there is a hadith which says he who attributed a lie to me will suffer for it. And another one I think where he didn't want anybody recording anything about him.
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #65 - March 19, 2010, 01:06 PM

    Yeah, I think hadiths were never meant to be. Muhammad probably knew they would be corrupted just like previous scriptures had been corrupted. Or at least they were never meant to be about him - the Quran says a lot about the history of Islam - and perhaps that's all we needed. But it seems people over the years couldn't help themselves, and in addition to hadiths extending on rulings of the Quran, many also appeared about the Prophet - and from then on it just snowballed.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #66 - March 19, 2010, 02:30 PM

    If I were a professional historian I would be very sceptical regarding the likely veracity of his account - and justifiably so.

    If you were a professional historian, would you be sceptical of the veracity of Muhammeds account that the verses came from a sky God?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #67 - March 19, 2010, 02:35 PM

    lol
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #68 - March 19, 2010, 02:39 PM

    So Abu you don't think its a problem the man never asked people to write a proper bio? Or to leave a will? How many wars have we not had between muslims? How many sects have not broken out because of disputes?

    He was highly irresponsible. And you believe it's Allah's plan. Then Allah is highly irresponsible as well.

    Micrsoft has had better and more successful launch campaigns. Even with all the bluescreens.
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #69 - March 19, 2010, 02:39 PM

    If you were a professional historian, would you be sceptical of the veracity of Muhammeds account that the verses came from a sky God?


     Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #70 - March 19, 2010, 02:44 PM

    So Abu you don't think its a problem the man never asked people to write a proper bio? Or to leave a will? 

    He was highly irresponsible. And you believe it's Allah's plan. Then Allah is highly irresponsible as well.

    Micrsoft has had better and more successful launch campaigns. Even with all the bluescreens.

    Yes, thats a good point.  If Allah realises in the Quran he made a blunder and allowed humans to corrupt the Torah & the Bible, and his claim was that he was protecting this message.  Then why did he not write something as simple as how to pray in the Quran?  Why did he allow the final message and the life & times of the prophet to become corrupted (as you acknowledge with the Sira & seahih hadith) and allow innocent faithful followers to suffer as a result?

    Too many questions.  Too few answers.  The game is up, AbuY.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #71 - March 19, 2010, 02:45 PM

    Yeah, I think hadiths were never meant to be. Muhammad probably knew they would be corrupted just like previous scriptures had been corrupted. Or at least they were never meant to be about him - the Quran says a lot about the history of Islam - and perhaps that's all we needed. But it seems people over the years couldn't help themselves, and in addition to hadiths extending on rulings of the Quran, many also appeared about the Prophet - and from then on it just snowballed.


    Btw, you failed to answer the challenge made to you about how you can provide context to the 'verses of the sword' if you reject the hadith. How do you know who was the aggressor and who was the victim in the whole Pagan-Muslim throwdown during Mo's life? How do you know anything about Mo's life at all when you reject the hadiths? Without the hadiths, don't you realize the entire "look at the context" argument fall apart. The hadiths are the context of Islam. If you can draw out and accept details about who violated what treaty then you also need to accept that Mo did in fact fuck a 9 year old girl and he did in fact demand apostates to be executed.

    Once again, your partial self-serving and intellectually dishonest hadith denial exposes itself as totally inconsistent.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #72 - March 19, 2010, 02:48 PM

    Slightly OT but everytime I see the title of this thread I keep thinking it reads 'Whoremongering Islam'. Cheesy

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #73 - March 19, 2010, 02:49 PM

    Now that^ would be an Islam I would convert to. Grin

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #74 - March 19, 2010, 02:50 PM

    Slightly OT but everytime I see the title of this thread I keep thinking it reads 'Whoremongering Islam'. Cheesy


     Cheesy
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #75 - March 19, 2010, 02:52 PM

    Now that^ would be an Islam I would convert to. Grin



    My work colleagues are giving me funny looks 'cos I'm cracking up at my desk but won't tell them why...  Ok, back to work, Nour!!!

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #76 - March 19, 2010, 03:24 PM

    Btw, you failed to answer the challenge made to you about how you can provide context to the 'verses of the sword' if you reject the hadith. How do you know who was the aggressor and who was the victim in the whole Pagan-Muslim throwdown during Mo's life? How do you know anything about Mo's life at all when you reject the hadiths? Without the hadiths, don't you realize the entire "look at the context" argument fall apart. The hadiths are the context of Islam. If you can draw out and accept details about who violated what treaty then you also need to accept that Mo did in fact fuck a 9 year old girl and he did in fact demand apostates to be executed.

    Once again, your partial self-serving and intellectually dishonest hadith denial exposes itself as totally inconsistent.


    I already said to me it's clear from the verses of the Quran alone that there was a truce between the Muslims and Pagan Arabs. It is also clear from the verses surrounding verse 5 that Muslims were only ordered to fight the polytheists who broke the truce.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #77 - March 19, 2010, 03:25 PM

    Uneducated speculation at best.

    What about the Quranic commandment to follow the example of the prophet? How do you fullfil that?

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #78 - March 19, 2010, 03:56 PM

    ''What about the Quranic commandment to follow the example of the prophet? How do you fullfil that?''

    There are verses relating to the prophets behaviour in the Quran - we should follow these.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #79 - March 19, 2010, 04:06 PM

    So Abu you don't think its a problem the man never asked people to write a proper bio? Or to leave a will? How many wars have we not had between muslims? How many sects have not broken out because of disputes?

    He was highly irresponsible. And you believe it's Allah's plan. Then Allah is highly irresponsible as well.

    Micrsoft has had better and more successful launch campaigns. Even with all the bluescreens.


    I would have been surprised if he did leave a bio. Why should he leave a bio when we have the word of God? We worship God not Muhammad.

    You guys obviously disagree, but I feel the Quran makes it quite clear that fighting is only permitted in self defence. The Quran also makes it quite clear that there should be no sects of Islam, no sunni no shia no nothing. Just submitters to God's will.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #80 - March 19, 2010, 04:30 PM

    AbuYunus, Leaving aside Quran and Hadiths. How do you explain the fact that the four "rashidun khilafa" after Mo's death almost immediately engaged in hostile wars of conquest against the neighbouring kingdoms? Wouldn't these four be the closest to Muhammad's teachings?

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #81 - March 19, 2010, 06:42 PM

    I respect your opinion AbuYunus but how would you explain all these Muslim extremists who justify their appalling actions by citing verses from the Qur'an. Surely God, the all-knowing, would have been able to communicate his message coherently and precisely enough as to not cause any subsequent evil and suffering from people who might have twisted his message.

    Just a thought. Would like to hear your response.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #82 - March 19, 2010, 07:00 PM

    ’And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits’’
    2:190

    ‘’But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).’’
    8:61

    ‘’God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just.’’ 60:8
    ‘’God only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.’’ 60:9


    In my opinion the rulings are very clear. But there are always going to be people who twist religion to do terrible things to satisfy there own personal agendas. If they didn't have religion you can bet they would come up with another excuse to justify their apalling actions.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #83 - March 19, 2010, 07:03 PM

    If they didn't have religion you can bet they would come up with another excuse to justify their apalling actions.


    That's rubbish. If it were already violent and evil people justifying their actions that'd make sense. But a good number of the young men who have engaged in terrorist acts (7/7 bombers for example) have literally ZERO reason to do what they did except for Islam. Even foreign policy makes no sense with them, as it does for Bin Laden at least. A good number of these suicide bombers, were pretty much decent human beings otherwise. Educated, with children and a community. Considered to be mostly gentle human beings.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #84 - March 19, 2010, 07:03 PM

    AbuYunus, Leaving aside Quran and Hadiths. How do you explain the fact that the four "rashidun khilafa" after Mo's death almost immediately engaged in hostile wars of conquest against the neighbouring kingdoms? Wouldn't these four be the closest to Muhammad's teachings?


    And you never answered this^

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #85 - March 19, 2010, 07:21 PM

    I know there are peaceful verses but surah 9:4-5 seems to convey that war after the peace treaties are over is a permissible interpretation.

    9:4(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
       
    9:5    But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

    I get the impression from these verses that military action to spread the message and to control unbelievers must be carried out.

    Also 9:29

    Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

    How would you reconcile these verses with your interpretation of the Qur'an since it seems pretty clear to me that this verse is ordering Muslims to fight those who do not believe in Islam until they agree to pay the Jizyah and live under the rules of the Islamic state. It's totalitarian in my view.

    Give me your thoughts.




    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #86 - March 19, 2010, 07:30 PM

    You guys obviously disagree, but I feel the Quran makes it quite clear that fighting is only permitted in self defence. The Quran also makes it quite clear that there should be no sects of Islam, no sunni no shia no nothing. Just submitters to God's will.

    Isnt that the problem.  Sunni's & shias all claim to be submitters to Gods will.  They just dont know what that is, and neither do you, judging by your response to 4:34 amongst each others.

    Isnt that testament to the fact that the Quran isnt clear, despite it calling itself "mubeen".  

    And secondly doesnt that put into question Allahs omnicience?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #87 - March 20, 2010, 09:59 AM

    ’And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits’’
    2:190


    You are taking  this verse out of its context.Here quran is talking about fighting disbelievers.Those who disbelieve in Allah and retaliate against compulsion of believing in islam   are said to  wage war against the believers.Now if they accept Allah and his messenger and if you still fight them  then its injustice  as per quran and hence you are not supposed to fight such kind of people who have accepted Allah.

     Muhhamad 's definition of self defense was twisted.Anyone who resists believing in Allah and retaliates by fighting was termed to fight an aggressive war against muslims when in reality the disbelievers were the ones who were fighting in self defense . In other words disbelievers were the ones who were fighting in self defense and not the muslims but yet the disbelievers are said to fight an aggressive war. Read the following tafsir of Ibn Kathir on this.

    http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5035

     If you dont believe in the tafsir  then we need to see what "Fighting by disbelievers " consists of  as per quran.If you criticize against islam then that is also termed as fighting against islam or muslims.see the following verses..

    9.12
    But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and attack your religion with disapproval and criticism then fight (you) the leaders of disbelief (chiefs of Quraish - pagans of Makkah) - for surely their oaths are nothing to them - so that they may stop (evil actions).


    60:12
    If they come on you, they will be enemies to you, and stretch against you their hands AND THEIR TONGUES, to do you evil, and they wish that you may disbelieve.



    One of the conditions to fight is if they use their tongues against islam i,e they criticize islam. Also the same message of 2:190-193 is repeated in 8:39. See..

    [008:039]
    And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily God doth see all that they do.


    So you are supposed to fight till oppression is over AND there prevails FAITH IN GOD i.e islam.


    Quote from: Abu Yunus
    ‘’God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just.’’ 60:8
    ‘’God only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.’’ 60:9


    Same applies here too. Just read 9:12 and 60:2 to understand what fighting by a non believer constitutes. One of the condition is criticizing islam and showing disbelief.


    Quote from: Abu Yunus
    In my opinion the rulings are very clear. But there are always going to be people who twist religion to do terrible things to satisfy there own personal agendas. If they didn't have religion you can bet they would come up with another excuse to justify their apalling actions.


     The terrorists require quran to justify their actions because islam supports terrorism.If these verses were not there we wouldnt be finding muslim terrorists.
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #88 - March 20, 2010, 01:48 PM

    "The terrorists require quran to justify their actions because islam supports terrorism.If these verses were not there we wouldnt be finding muslim terrorists."

    And what about non-muslim terrorists do they require help from their scriptures to justify their actions and if their scriptures dont have such verses then will there be non-muslim terrorist.

     

    "When one bright intellect meets another bright intellect, the light increases and the Way becomes clear -- Rumi
  • Re: Warmongering Islam
     Reply #89 - March 20, 2010, 01:49 PM

    lol
  • Previous page 1 2 34 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »