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Theme Changer

 Topic: Come on now!

 (Read 22138 times)
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  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #90 - March 20, 2010, 05:20 PM

    Look guys, z10 is right. I think time out should be called on this discussion. If Liberated reckons that it's guided, then so be it, does it bother you or have an effect on your beliefs?

    Liberated, without going into the depth of what the guys are trying to point out to you. Let me summarize some points for you, which might help you to look at the whole picture in full.

    1 - Evolution is a fact. Natural selection is the theory used to explain it. Now, the point is, is that the theory works and is explained without the assumption or need for a guiding force.

    2 - Natural selection not only is beneficial for the species, but is also ruthless and capricious. It's the species adapting to the environment bottom up not guided top down. It really is blind and isn't guiding toward some aim or purpose.

    3 - I don't want to posit words into your mouth but lets say a theist god is used as a guiding force. A theist god by definition is personal and makes intervention. It makes god into a kind of "scratch my head" deity. One who seems to be taking eons to make very slow and steady adaptions as needed whilst causing needless suffering and extinctions.

    4 - If you posit aliens or other beings then they are also assumptions which need to be explained. If you don't explain them and just posit them, it makes the explanation ad-hoc and just pushes the problem one step back. That goes with whatever supernatural guide you use.

    5 - Many religious people choose to credit their god with evolution and have adapted their beliefs to accomodate it. But stand outside for five minutes and observe each follower from all the world religions crediting their deity for evolution. Close your eyes and imagine how each of them would manage to do that and how they would square the scriptures with it. You don't have to go too far back in time to see how vehemently evolution was opposed by the same authorities who are adapting their beliefs around it.

    Liberated, the gist of it is that the theory is explained without assuming any guiding force. Some creature adapt and some don't. It really is a ground up theory and not top down. There really needs to be a paradigm shift when looking at evolution.


    ^POTM +2

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #91 - March 20, 2010, 05:53 PM

    No offense but that sounds exactly like a muslim saying 'do you have to keep making threads about how little you understand about the quran'.

    Nothing is above questioning, quran, bible, and unguided evolution / evolution by random mutations.

    I am ok with your questioning.
    It's just that you keep making seemingly identical threads.

    You said you are a programmer.
    Then, if you want to understand how mutation and selection can come up with startling solutions to problems, I suggest you to look into "genetic algorithms".

    I can see that your error here is that you equate evolution to pure randomness, and cannot grasp how it can come up with such a seemingly elegant solution to a problem.
    Speaking in programmers terms, you are confusing "genetic algorithm" for "random search".

    The opposite error you could make is the exact opposite: asking how evolution could come up, step-by-step, mutation-by-mutation, to such a solution.
    Speaking in programmers terms, this would be like confusing "genetic algorithm" for "hill climbing search".
    I talked about this one in some other thread.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #92 - March 20, 2010, 06:00 PM

    What "anti-evolution" people refuse to acknowledge is that the mechanics of evolution ARE being used successfully by information science.

    There is still not much precise understanding of how exactly the various forms of "evolutionary programming" can actually come up with incredible solutions to very difficult problems that span incredibly huge solution-spaces.
    But they DO work. And they are based on the simple principles of mutation and selection of the fittest.

    Since there is no "external force" that makes such algorithms come up with startling solutions, there is no logical need to believe that there is an external force driving their biological equivalent.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #93 - March 20, 2010, 06:16 PM

    ... but its wrong to discard the possibility that aliens may be behind it just because we don't know the answers to questions about the aliens that can only be answered if/when they're studied.

    Basically you "answer" is not answering anything.
    What you are doing is simply replacing one unknown with another. And calling it "aliens". Some call it "God". Some call it Mudkipz.
    The problem of Infinite regress.

    The smart thing to do when you have no answers is to simply say "I don't know, hence I will keep looking".

    Tlaloc was referring to programming:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCXzcPNsqGA
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #94 - March 20, 2010, 08:19 PM

    Well Kenan that card board block simulation video doesn't give an idea how that first species  with the ability reproduction started.

    You guys are too smart but the best person to question Darwin is this man.. 

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx2QXVi89BI

    Why Darwin is wrong?  Quran says so.. How that answer your question ..lol..


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #95 - March 20, 2010, 08:31 PM

    those aliens who may/may not  be the reason for life or human beings on the earth MUST ALSO GO THROUGH THE PROCESS OF EVOLUTION.

    that is the point there.,  in other words the rules are same  here or for them..

    And my point is that we are not in the position to make any assumptions about how the alien life may have come about without actually studying them.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #96 - March 20, 2010, 08:37 PM

    I can see that your error here is that you equate evolution to pure randomness, and cannot grasp how it can come up with such a seemingly elegant solution to a problem.

    Actually that isn't true. I can grasp how a solution like the human body could come about via natural selection and mutations. But, the thing which I can't swallow is when precise patterns like these are found on the bodies of animals:






    The problem here is that, for these patterns to come about, they would need to offer either a sexual or a survival benefit (e.g being more attracted to mates or being less likely to be eaten off). But, in their primitive forms these patterns would not offer any significant advantage than the other patterns found on other spiders/butterflies. Therefore, it doesn't make sense that these patterns would have been selected in their primitive forms and then spread along further to replace all other patterns found on the spiders/butterflies.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #97 - March 20, 2010, 08:55 PM

    Rough dot would look something like an eye? Give me a break.

    Secondly, why would predators care if it looked like an eye or not? These butterflies still get eaten.

    They would care because most creatures that are likely to prey on butterflies are unlikely to attack any animals large enough to have a big pair of eyes watching them.

    You are making the mistake of looking at the butterflies in isolation, with good lighting, with human eyesight and a human brain. To you it is obvious that they are butterflies with big, round dots on their wings. That does not mean it is going to be obvious to all animals under all conditions.


    Quote
    The only possible explanation can be sexual selection, which is moot as well because a 'rough dot looking like an eye' won't give much of an edge to the butterfly for it to be chosen over other patterns.

    That is not the only possible explanation. I have been trying to explain another one to you.


    Quote
    The probabilities are just too low. To think that this could be formed via mutations and natural selection alone takes more faith than to believe that it was guided by some entity. (Before anyone calls me a creationist, note that the entity can also be aliens, or some unknown natural forces, not just god).

    Question: if you are trying to skirt round the issue of deities by positing aliens, how did the aliens get there if they didn't evolve?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #98 - March 20, 2010, 08:56 PM

    You guys are too smart but the best person to question Darwin is this man..  

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx2QXVi89BI

    Why Darwin is wrong?  Quran says so.. How that answer your question ..lol..

    Oh god, what a retard! He goes 'certain parts of the theory like man evolving from water are OK, the quran says that, but not humans coming from apes' LOL  Cheesy. Retard, evolution doesn't even talking about abiogenesis.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #99 - March 20, 2010, 09:02 PM

    Liberated, I'll try another analogy.

    Polar bears are white. The reason polar bears are white is because it is the best colour for camouflaging a bloody big bear in their normal habitat.

    Your objection to the butterflies is much the same as if you went to the zoo, looked at the polar bears in their enclosure, then haughtily declared that there was no practical advantage in them being white because they were still obviously bloody great bears.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #100 - March 20, 2010, 09:04 PM

    They would care because most creatures that are likely to prey on butterflies are unlikely to attack any animals large enough to have a big pair of eyes watching them.

    Unless some actual experimentation is done on this, this assumption can't be made. I'm guessing it would depend on various factors, e.g how smart the predators are, light conditions, as well as whether there is plenty of other prey available in the area. If there is little food available, as is usually the case, the predators would be more aggressive.

    Of course these butterflies still get eaten off even with the eye pattern. I'm guessing that to predators like birds this pattern would not even be visible.

    Secondly, even if these patterns have any effect on boosting the survival rate of the butterflies, that would only be in the present form of the pattern when its already looking like a full pair of eyes. However in its primitive form I don't see this pattern providing any benefit because of which it would be chosen over other patterns found in the butterflies.

    Question: if you are trying to skirt round the issue of deities by positing aliens, how did the aliens get there if they didn't evolve?

    I'm not trying to skirt around the issue of dieties, I don't believe in any dieties personally, I'm agnostic. I'm only starting to believe that evolution is guided by some entity and I honestly don't have any thoughts about what that entity is, it could be anything.

    I already answered your question of how the aliens could've come about :
    That can only be answered when/if the aliens are studied.

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #101 - March 20, 2010, 09:05 PM

    Liberated, I'll try another analogy.

    Polar bears are white. The reason polar bears are white is because it is the best colour for camouflaging a bloody big bear in their normal habitat.

    Your objection to the butterflies is much the same as if you went to the zoo, looked at the polar bears in their enclosure, then haughtily declared that there was no practical advantage in them being white because they were still obviously bloody great bears.

    I wouldn't make that objection about polar bears unless they had precise patterns like eyes or the markings of a face on their body.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #102 - March 20, 2010, 09:16 PM

    Unless some actual experimentation is done on this, this assumption can't be made. I'm guessing it would depend on various factors, e.g how smart the predators are, light conditions, as well as whether there is plenty of other prey available in the area. If there is little food available, as is usually the case, the predators would be more aggressive.

    Hold the bus.  Cheesy 

    You say assumptions can't be made and then straight after saying that you start guessing? Ahem.  Tongue
    Can we try for a little consistency, please?

    Yes, of course it will depend on various factors. That is exactly what I have been trying to explain to you. Thank you for finally agreeing.


    Quote
    Of course these butterflies still get eaten off even with the eye pattern. I'm guessing that to predators like birds this pattern would not even be visible.

    Guessing again? Tell me, if the bird's eyesight is good enough to see the butterfly, and if the bird's eyesight is good enough to see plumage patterns on other birds, what basis do you have for guessing that the bird would be unable to see the pattern on the butterfly's wings?


    Quote
    Secondly, even if these patterns have any effect on boosting the survival rate of the butterflies, that would only be in the present form of the pattern when its already looking like a full pair of eyes. However in its primitive form I don't see this pattern providing any benefit because of which it would be chosen over other patterns found in the butterflies.

    Not necessarily. Again, just because you don't see it that does not mean there could not be any advantage.


    Quote
    I'm not trying to skirt around the issue of dieties, I don't believe in any dieties personally, I'm agnostic. I'm only starting to believe that evolution is guided by some entity and I honestly don't have any thoughts about what that entity is, it could be anything.

    I already answered your question of how the aliens could've come about :

    No. That does not answer it. That was basically an attempt at avoiding the issue.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #103 - March 20, 2010, 09:18 PM

    I wouldn't make that objection about polar bears unless they had precise patterns like eyes or the markings of a face on their body.

    Ok, what about leopards? They have many eye-like markings all over them that are comparable to the ones on the wings of some butterflies. Do you refuse to accept that the markings on leopards could have evolved for practical reasons?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #104 - March 20, 2010, 09:40 PM

    Hold the bus.  Cheesy 

    You say assumptions can't be made and then straight after saying that you start guessing? Ahem.  Tongue
    Can we try for a little consistency, please?

    I was making my assumption about easy to see facts, i.e its common sense that whether the patterns help or not would depend on various factors, if the predators are more aggressive they would be more likely to attack, etc. This is common sense and doesn't require experimentation.  You were making the assumption that the pattern would make the predators confused. That would require experimentation to see if its true or not. See the difference? Wink

    Tell me, if the bird's eyesight is good enough to see the butterfly, and if the bird's eyesight is good enough to see plumage patterns on other birds, what basis do you have for guessing that the bird would be unable to see the pattern on the butterfly's wings?

    Well, seeing a butterfly from the sky does not mean the bird will be able to see the patterns on the butterfly as well. When we're in a plane, we might be able to see sign posts / banners on the ground, but we cannot read what those sign posts/banners say.

    Secondly, even if the bird's eye sight is good enough to see the pattern, whether the patterns are seen would also depend on the angle in which the butterfly is sitting and the angle in which the bird would attack from.

    Not necessarily. Again, just because you don't see it that does not mean there could not be any advantage.

    So you're taking it on faith that the primitive forms of the pattern would have an advantage over other patterns present in other butterflies.

    No. That does not answer it. That was basically an attempt at avoiding the issue.

    How do you expect anyone to be able to answer how the aliens would have come about without studying the aliens? That is a lame expectation. Even if the aliens had to evolve it could be a completely different mechanism than the mutations + natural selection mechanism that humans have. They might not have genes but rather some different way of passing on traits. Which is why, without knowing all these facts, its incorrect to make any sort of assumptions about the alien life.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #105 - March 20, 2010, 09:41 PM

    Ok, what about leopards? They have many eye-like markings all over them that are comparable to the ones on the wings of some butterflies. Do you refuse to accept that the markings on leopards could have evolved for practical reasons?

    I disagree, they are just random patterns / spots. They don't even come close to the precise eyes found on the owl butterfly.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #106 - March 20, 2010, 10:25 PM

    But, in their primitive forms these patterns would not offer any significant advantage than the other patterns found on other spiders/butterflies. Therefore, it doesn't make sense that these patterns would have been selected in their primitive forms and then spread along further to replace all other patterns found on the spiders/butterflies.

    Here, you are making the second mistake I talked about.
    You are trying to look for step-by-step local improvements along the evolutionary path.

    That does not need to be the case.
    Mutations do not NEED to be beneficial in order to be propagated.

    If that were the case, evolutionary algorithms would be identical to hill-climbing algorithms... and thus unable to sweep a vast solution space as quickly as they do.

    Let's take, as an example, the butterfly:

    It's possible that countless generations ago, those butterflies spotted a bunch of small greyish dots to hide on greyish-spotted trees.

    Some of them mutated to have bigger spots, and that was a detrimental mutation because they got easier to spot, thus becoming a minority among the population.

    Until, later on, a mutation appeared that spotted two HUGE dots and TADA that actually became favorable.

    It's quite possible that it didn't happen like this at all, but the number of combinations of steps leading to the result is so high that you cannot claim that ignorance of how it happened is proof against the mechanisms of evolution, since the requirements for evolution ARE in place (mutation + selection) and since we have empirically determined that evolution IS a valid solution-searching algorithm.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #107 - March 20, 2010, 10:29 PM

    What you people who don't understand evolution seem to miss is that neutral or even detrimental mutations are not wiped out of the gene pool, unless they are lethal (i.e. reducing fitness to exactly zero).

    They simply become rare, according to the negative difference in fitness they cause.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #108 - March 20, 2010, 10:34 PM

    Another fallacy is that you seem to miss the fact that the same evolutionary mechanism that we assume gave birth to the weirdly eye-pattern butterfly also supposedly created a shitload of seemingly uninteresting butterflies (at least, not interesting from the merely visual point of view ^_^)

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #109 - March 20, 2010, 10:58 PM

    evolution IS a valid solution-searching algorithm.

    never heard it phrased better than that!

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #110 - March 20, 2010, 10:59 PM

    Liberated posted a new video recently:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqLElg1B0OE

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #111 - March 20, 2010, 11:20 PM

    ^^ Is this guy for real? This is some kind of parody, right?
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #112 - March 20, 2010, 11:21 PM

    Sadly no. But yes, that was my first thought. Check out his other videos. Really jawdropping stupid. When I gaze into his zombie-like docile camel eyes I realize this guy is dead serious. Islam mind-hijacking complete.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #113 - March 20, 2010, 11:23 PM

    I can't be asked watching people like this humiliating themselves. What is the main point of his argument? If any?
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #114 - March 20, 2010, 11:26 PM

    What is the main point of his argument? If any?

    Female T-rex's had a good fashion sense.

    This is not a joke (I wish it was tbh) - this actually seem to be his main point.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #115 - March 20, 2010, 11:27 PM

     Cheesy

    Moar fail
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCfQt_VofVo

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #116 - March 21, 2010, 12:14 AM

    Let's take, as an example, the butterfly:

    It's possible that countless generations ago, those butterflies spotted a bunch of small greyish dots to hide on greyish-spotted trees.

    Some of them mutated to have bigger spots, and that was a detrimental mutation because they got easier to spot, thus becoming a minority among the population.

    Until, later on, a mutation appeared that spotted two HUGE dots and TADA that actually became favorable.

    Couple of points:

    1- Trees don't have greyish spots so I don't see what you're referring to.

    2- If the mutation was harmful, how did it spread from the individual in which it occurred to other individuals such that 'some of them' had this mutation? If it were detrimental they should have been a minority from the beginning and should have been wiped off quickly.

    3- I don't understand the example, if they had mutated bigger spots and this was harmful, why would evolving two more bigger spots be beneficial?

    4- This doesn't do anything to explain to me how the perfectly eye-like patterns would appear so perfectly on the wings of the butterfly and what primitive forms this pattern would have gone through during its evoliution.

    Regardless of whether evolution is a hill climbing algorithm or not, you do agree that the pattern would have to go through several, or at least a few primitive stages before it would become as defined and eye-like as it appears on the butterfly? I'm asking what these primitive forms were. Since in the primitive form, this pattern would not provide any advantage over other patterns found in the butterflies, and would not be selected over them.

    P.S iblis you know what part of my body you can suck on Smiley


  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #117 - March 21, 2010, 12:28 AM

     grin12 You know I love you Libby. Seriously. This forum wouldn't be the same without you.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #118 - March 21, 2010, 12:45 AM

    Couple of points:

    1- Trees don't have greyish spots so I don't see what you're referring to.

    I am sure you are stating this as a fact, not sections of trees from where this butterfly evolved from.  In that case its just an example, think stones, rocks, cliff faces etc

    Quote
    2- If the mutation was harmful, how did it spread from the individual in which it occurred to other individuals such that 'some of them' had this mutation? If it were detrimental they should have been a minority from the beginning and should have been wiped off quickly.

    Perhaps, but it might not have been harmful enough to get wiped out completely. It might have evolved very quickly onto the next stage.  Perhaps the tree (or whatever it was) was wiped out so it rapidly adapted 2 spots which was more advantages than lots of them, which became honed to become 2 eyes.

    Quote
    what primitive forms this pattern would have gone through during its evoliution.

    You might want to go look for it, but I recommend you dont bother.  It doesnt change the argument, because it may have evolved several steps, might have been completely random, or it may have just been a blurred one that got better each time.  Who knows.  Who cares. This example does not wash for me, only you.  So if you care enough about the evolutionary changes before the eye came about, then you might find this in some obscure journal in Belarus, go book your flight.
    Quote
    4- This doesn't do anything to explain to me how the perfectly eye-like patterns would appear so perfectly on the wings of the butterfly

     
    It has a number of times.  Help avoid predation.  These patterns are often espoused as a example of natural selection at its best.  That why its so wonderful.  And instead of standing their like the rest of us in awe, you stand their in disbelief.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #119 - March 21, 2010, 01:05 AM

    Couple of points:

    1- Trees don't have greyish spots so I don't see what you're referring to.

    2- If the mutation was harmful, how did it spread from the individual in which it occurred to other individuals such that 'some of them' had this mutation? If it were detrimental they should have been a minority from the beginning and should have been wiped off quickly.

    3- I don't understand the example, if they had mutated bigger spots and this was harmful, why would evolving two more bigger spots be beneficial?

    4- This doesn't do anything to explain to me how the perfectly eye-like patterns would appear so perfectly on the wings of the butterfly and what primitive forms this pattern would have gone through during its evoliution.

    1) That was an example i pulled out of my ass... it could have been any mixed-color spotted pattern that could blend in whatever environment they were

    2) This is probably what you don't get about evolution: neutral and detrimental mutations are not wiped out "quickly"
    Given an infinite amount of time and no environmental changes and no further mutations to change the equilibrium, they would eventually get wiped out
    But their "lifespan" is not zero: a not-useful mutation can still spread. It just spreads with lesser probability.

    3) Because the two bigger spots "suddenly" makes their previously useless pattern converge to the "omg two scaring eyes!" pattern that ends up being beneficial

    4) Once the "omg two round things that seem eyes!" pattern appear, it would quickly become very dominant among the population... and from that natural selection would favor those tiny changes that make it seem more and more similar to real bird eyes.

    Regardless of whether evolution is a hill climbing algorithm or not, you do agree that the pattern would have to go through several, or at least a few primitive stages before it would become as defined and eye-like as it appears on the butterfly? I'm asking what these primitive forms were. Since in the primitive form, this pattern would not provide any advantage over other patterns found in the butterflies, and would not be selected over them.


    I cannot agree nor disagree with that.
    Being partially stochastic in nature, evolution doesn't "require" many/few/any steps.
    I can only say that "more steps" is more probable than "few steps".
    And, given the stochastic nature of evolution, we have no idea what those steps were.
    We can only guess.

    About the eye pattern, I really cannot see what you find so incredible about it.

    I could imagine:
    1) lame butterfly with no pattern that amazes humans
    2) lame butterfly with random big dots that make them a bit easier to stop -> crappy fitness
    3) butterfly with two big dots that are not that amazing for humans, but that some animals with lesser vision recognizing capabilities could mistake as eyes of a predator -> kinda nice fitness
    4) butterfly with little modifications in size/color/details of the two big dots that make them even more similar to bird eyes -> can fool "smarter" predators -> even better fitness
    5) butterfly with pattern that totally resemble owl eyes -> can fool most predators -> very nice fitness -> humans find it an amazing miracle

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
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