Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse

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Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
OP - March 21, 2010, 08:32 AM

Saudi Arabia has rejected a fatwa allowing native Saudi women to seek employment as maids.

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JEDDAH: Saudi academics and lawyers have rejected the fatwa of legal adviser Saleh bin Saad Al-Laheedan allowing Saudi women to work as maids, saying such work is humiliating for them.

They said Saudi people in general opposed the idea when Labor Minister Ghazi Al-Gosaibi issued a decision two years ago allowing Saudi women to work as house managers and servants.

Speaking to Islamonline.net, Suhaila Zainul Abideen, a member of the National Society for Human Rights, expressed her surprise at Al-Laheedan’s fatwa or religious edict. She strongly opposed the idea of Saudi women working as maids.

She said the state is responsible for taking care of women if they are in need of financial assistance. “Where is social insurance?” she asked. She also wondered why scholars were not applying the principle of preventing the reason (Sadd Al-Dharai) in this issue in the same way that it is applied in other issues such as women driving and mingling with the opposite sex.

Sheikh Al-Laheedan said it is permissible for Saudi women to work as maids if they cannot find other jobs, if they are over 50 and accompanied by a mehram (a close male relative). Suhaila asked whether any family would allow their womenfolk to work along with their mehrams.

Suhaila urged the concerned authorities to take up the matter with Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Abdullah, who she said is sure would not accept the humiliation of Saudi women. She said Al-Laheedan should have instead asked the authorities to make monthly payments to poor Saudi women.

Fahd Al-Johani, dean of students affairs at Taif University, opposed the idea, saying working as maids would force women to violate certain Islamic principles. He said Al-Laheedan should have considered the present condition of maids before giving his fatwa.

Ibrahim Al-Saqhabi, a Saudi, said it is shameful for the ministry and Al-Laheedan to allow Saudi women to work as maids. “Saudi Arabia has the financial ability to support its poor women by paying them monthly salaries, instead of allowing them to work as maids,” he said.

Meanwhile Saudi Arabia employs millions of women from other poorer nations, including Muslim nations like Indonesia & Bangladesh as maids.

Indonesian & Bangladeshi Muslimahs working as maids is cool with them, but Saudi women have to be accompanied by mehrams & even then, its not permissible as Islamic principles will be violated.

Abuse of foreign maids meanwhile, has become an epidemic in Saudi Arabia & an Indonesian woman was brutally abused by her employers.

But as we all know, its Israel which is a "racist" state.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #1 - March 21, 2010, 08:38 AM

You have a very good point; but what's the point of bringing up Israel?

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #2 - March 21, 2010, 08:44 AM

Quote from: aliadiere on March 21, 2010, 08:38 AM
You have a very good point; but what's the point of bringing up Israel?

Well, I know Israel is a hot button issue, & I don't want to discuss it again, so I won't bring it up. Sorry.

But I think this issue is very concrete proof that Saudi is not only religously bigoted, its racist as well.

Women from the largest Muslim nation, Indonesia, routinely work as maids in Saudi, & are routinely abused, but Saudi women can't do the same demeaning work & even if they're allowed, they need "mehrams" coz it violates "Islamic principles"

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #3 - March 21, 2010, 08:49 AM

KSA is well known for being (as a generalisation) racist towards foreigners, particularly labourers and domestic help. The reaction to this fatwa doesn't surprise me at all.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #4 - March 21, 2010, 08:52 AM

It really is common knowledge that Saudi is very racist. Just ask any Pakistani who has lived there. There are loads of terrible things about saudi, including this, but it is acknowledged. It is not like everyone turns a blind eye to Saudi and just bangs on about Israel.

That's why I didn't get why you mentioned Israel. Both states are oppressive, but this article is talking about only one of them. Israel is really quite irrelevent.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #5 - March 21, 2010, 09:01 AM

Quote from: Rashna on March 21, 2010, 08:32 AM
But as we all know, its Israel which is a "racist" state.

It elevates one ethnic group above others - so by definition it's a racist state.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #6 - March 21, 2010, 09:12 AM

Quote from: aliadiere on March 21, 2010, 08:52 AM
It really is common knowledge that Saudi is very racist.

Indeed, there is quite a lot of racism there, while not being a racist state.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #7 - March 21, 2010, 09:21 AM

Quote from: aliadiere on March 21, 2010, 08:52 AM
It really is common knowledge that Saudi is very racist. Just ask any Pakistani who has lived there. There are loads of terrible things about saudi, including this, but it is acknowledged. It is not like everyone turns a blind eye to Saudi and just bangs on about Israel.

That's why I didn't get why you mentioned Israel. Both states are oppressive, but this article is talking about only one of them. Israel is really quite irrelevent.

Well, Saudis don't have to run to bomb shelters everyday due to terrorist attacks by kaffirs who want to wipe them off the face of the earth. Whatever successful & foiled terror attacks Saudis have faced are also done by Muslims, as is the case with terror attacks in Islamic nations. Nor does Saudi have nations building nukes to wipe it off the face of the earth.

And both nations were formed after driving out & killing original inhabitants based on religion, Israel when it displaced the Palestinians, & Saudi 1400 years back when Mo converted, banished & killed all the Jews, Christians & pagans, letting only Muslims remain.

Muslims are a fast increasing minority in Israel today, while Saudi's non Muslims become extinct with Muhammad.

I've had discussions with you on Israel aliadiere, & I'm aware they go nowhere. I don't want to & I'm willing to drop any references to Israel if you also drop them.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #8 - March 21, 2010, 09:23 AM

Quote from: panoptic on March 21, 2010, 09:12 AM
Indeed, there is quite a lot of racism there, while not being a racist state.

Jews aren't allowed to enter Saudi at all, that by itself makes it a racist state.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #9 - March 21, 2010, 09:37 AM

Bloody hell! My whole point was "Israel is irrelevent, so why mention it", so you can't really accuse me of trying to hijack this thrad into discussing israel when I objected to you mentioning it! Just chill out man!

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #10 - March 21, 2010, 09:48 AM

Rashna? Chill out? Surely you jest.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #11 - March 21, 2010, 09:49 AM

Quote
Saudi's non Muslims become extinct with Muhammad.

'Saudi' didn't exist at the time of Mohammed; if you mean Arabia, on the other hand, you are still wrong.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #12 - March 21, 2010, 09:52 AM

Quote from: aliadiere on March 21, 2010, 09:37 AM
Bloody hell! My whole point was "Israel is irrelevent, so why mention it", so you can't really accuse me of trying to hijack this thrad into discussing israel when I objected to you mentioning it! Just chill out man!

Sorry, I won't mention Israel again.

On the topic of Saudi racism, I've read in Senegalese English language papers that Saudi is extremely racist towards African people, I have(Muslim) relatives in Dubai who have faced no racism.

Middle Easterners have historically been extremely racist, they were the worst of the worst slavers of the black folks, it was they who did the majority of enslaving, the traficking & all the eunuching of Africans, which is why they don't have anywhere near the millions of African people in their population today that USA has.Yes slavery wasn't an exclusively based on racism for them, but still it was overwhelmingly done to blacks, so much so that the term for slaves in Arabic-, became the term for blacks. It also effected millions more Africans than Western abdslavery did, as it lasted for millennia, stopping only in 1963 in Saudi, & it often involved the brutal practice of castration, which Africans carried off to USA weren't subjected to.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #13 - March 21, 2010, 09:57 AM

Quote from: osmanthus
Rashna? Chill out? Surely you jest

True actually, I can't chill out very easily.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #14 - March 21, 2010, 09:59 AM

Quote from: panoptic on March 21, 2010, 09:49 AM
'Saudi' didn't exist at the time of Mohammed; if you mean Arabia, on the other hand, you are still wrong.

I mean all the regions which fall into what became Saudi today- Mecca, Medina & other cities, oasis & villages.

Those cities & regions were cleansed of all non Muslims by Mo. & co.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #15 - March 21, 2010, 10:07 AM

Quote from: Rashna on March 21, 2010, 09:59 AM
I mean all the regions which fall into what became Saudi today- Mecca, Medina & other cities, oasis & villages.

Those cities & regions were cleansed of all non Muslims by Mo. & co.

Still false.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #16 - March 21, 2010, 10:17 AM

Quote from: panoptic on March 21, 2010, 10:07 AM
Still false.

Nope, absolutely true. Islamic sources themselves mention various Jewish tribes living there, which disappeared when Muhammad either slaughtered them wholesale like Banu Quraiza or when he killed many members of those tribes.

Please find me the Jews of Mecca & Medina today.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #17 - March 21, 2010, 10:29 AM

Quote from: Rashna on March 21, 2010, 10:17 AM
Islamic sources themselves mention various Jewish tribes living there, which disappeared when Muhammad either slaughtered them wholesale like Banu Quraiza or when he killed many members of those tribes.

You originally said "all non-muslims", as opposed to "various [i.e only some] Jewish tribes".

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #18 - March 21, 2010, 10:41 AM

Quote from: panoptic on March 21, 2010, 10:29 AM
You originally said "all non-muslims", as opposed to "various [i.e only some] Jewish tribes".

Cool,then find me some polytheistic people in Saudi who still worship Allat al Uzza, Manat & those gods which existed there.

All those people were forcibly converted, banished or killed.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #19 - March 21, 2010, 11:05 AM

Quote from: Rashna on March 21, 2010, 10:41 AM
Cool,then find me some polytheistic people in Saudi who still worship Allat al Uzza, Manat & those gods which existed there.

All those people were forcibly converted, banished or killed.

so you just meant pagans

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #20 - March 21, 2010, 12:04 PM

In Saudi they dont even have women in the lingerie shops. All shops are staffed by men. Just shows what Islam does to your mind. Pus its 3aib for a Saudi woman to work as a maid. Foreigners, especially from poorer countries, are already treated like dirt. Saudis refuse to do even manual labour as it is not the kind of work a Saudi should do.

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Reply #21 - March 21, 2010, 02:44 PM

Quote from: panoptic on March 21, 2010, 11:05 AM
so you just meant pagans

I mean both pagans & Jewish tribes, also converts to Christianity which Mecca had at Mo's time like Waraqa.

All those people were cleansed of that area by Mo.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #22 - March 21, 2010, 03:48 PM

Quote from: Rashna on March 21, 2010, 02:44 PM
All those people were cleansed of that area by Mo.

No they weren't.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #23 - March 21, 2010, 05:57 PM

Quote from: panoptic on March 21, 2010, 10:07 AM
Still false.

How so?

It's a pretty well established fact that Muhammad and the later early Caliphs pretty much wiped out all traces of non-muslim presence from Arabia by slaughter and ethnic cleansing. Only a community of Jews were left in Yemen.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #24 - March 21, 2010, 08:43 PM

Quote from: Iblis on March 21, 2010, 05:57 PM
How so?

It's a pretty well established fact that Muhammad and the later early Caliphs pretty much wiped out all traces of non-muslim presence from Arabia by slaughter and ethnic cleansing. Only a community of Jews were left in Yemen.

Of paganism that statement is true (wars, forced conversion, etc., not to mention all its outward symbols). Thereafter Christians and Jews were under many restrictions, and persecution or worse, at the disfavour of rulers, but they still there. Jewish communities remained in the area for centuries and centuries.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #25 - March 21, 2010, 08:56 PM

No actually, I have never heard that before. The Jews were pretty much wiped out and forced out of the hijaz by the end of Mo's life. I'm sure there were some Christian smattering left but I recall the Ghassanids (the largest christian arab confederacy) were eventually forced to submit and accept Islam by Abu Bakr and the other Caliphs.

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Reply #26 - March 21, 2010, 10:06 PM

Quote from: panoptic on March 21, 2010, 08:43 PM
Of paganism that statement is true (wars, forced conversion, etc., not to mention all its outward symbols). Thereafter Christians and Jews were under many restrictions, and persecution or worse, at the disfavour of rulers, but they still there. Jewish communities remained in the area for centuries and centuries.

Also, what exactly do you mean by "Arabia" panoptic?

As Islam spread, Arabia also spread, today Egypt, Iraq, even North Africa are regarded as Arabian nations.'

That wasn't the case earlier. Islam not only wiped out faiths, it also wiped out languages.
The Coptic language of Egypt being an example.

In Muhammad's time, what was Arabia was a much smaller place.

While Judaism might have remained in what later became Arabia, it was definitely wiped out in the first towns Islam spread-Mecca, Medina etc. So did Christianity.

Judaism & Christianity did remain in many of the lands which later became part of Arabia, but Muhammad ensured that it disappeared from his birthplace.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #27 - March 22, 2010, 12:40 AM

Quote from: Iblis on March 21, 2010, 08:56 PM
No actually, I have never heard that before. The Jews were pretty much wiped out and forced out of the hijaz by the end of Mo's life. I'm sure there were some Christian smattering left but I recall the Ghassanids (the largest christian arab confederacy) were eventually forced to submit and accept Islam by Abu Bakr and the other Caliphs.

No, some Jews remained there - as you will discover Benjamin Tuldeh documented.

They weren't wiped out (I don't reckon Mo' even tried to do that). The disappearance of Jews took alot longer.

In any case, Christians have always lived in the Hijaz for all this time.

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #28 - March 22, 2010, 12:50 AM

Quote from: Rashna on March 21, 2010, 10:06 PM
Also, what exactly do you mean by "Arabia" panoptic?

I mean Arabia in exactly the parameters (the Hijaz) you tell me.

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In Muhammad's time, what was Arabia was a much smaller place.

I'm quite aware of that. I'm only talking of what you said.

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While Judaism might have remained in what later became Arabia, it was definitely wiped out in the first towns Islam spread-Mecca, Medina etc. So did Christianity.

No, this is false. See my previous post.

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Judaism & Christianity did remain in many of the lands which later became part of Arabia, but Muhammad ensured that it disappeared from his birthplace.

[Ditto.]

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Re: Saudi Women can't work as Maids but Foreign Maids are Ok..for Work & Abuse
Reply #29 - March 22, 2010, 01:01 AM

Quote from: Rashna on March 21, 2010, 10:06 PM
Also, what exactly do you mean by "Arabia" panoptic?

As Islam spread, Arabia also spread, today Egypt, Iraq, even North Africa are regarded as Arabian nations.'

Uhh no. Arabia refers to a rough geographic approxiamation, usually referring to the actual arabian peninsula up till the borders of Syria and Mesopotamia. I've never read a single reference regarding anything outside of the peninsula as "Arabia". So I don't know where you got that.

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That wasn't the case earlier. Islam not only wiped out faiths, it also wiped out languages.
The Coptic language of Egypt being an example.

Islam didn't wipe out anything. Muslims did.

And the Coptic language was never really wiped out. It simply became extinct as a the Arab and Islamic system of governance dominated. No one was banned from speaking it due to the the linguistic and cultural similarities of the adjacent semitic peoples and the conquering Arabs. Historical references during Saladin's rule in Egypt quite clearly state that over half of Egyptians were still Christians and spoke Coptic. That was 1174CE, which means in 300 years of Arab/Muslim rule a majority still remained coptic speaking christians. That points to a slow and gradual death, not a "wiping" out. Islam no more wiped out the Coptic language than the English wiped out the Celtic one.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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