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 Topic: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions

 (Read 11911 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     OP - March 22, 2010, 06:04 PM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj9oB4zpHww

     great
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #1 - March 22, 2010, 06:46 PM
    Holy shit that talk was amazing. Please do check it out guys! Sam Harris 4eva.

    Best slide in that talk:
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #2 - March 22, 2010, 08:07 PM
    Nice vid Iblis. Got me thinking lol.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #3 - March 22, 2010, 10:18 PM
    amazing

    can someone find me the slide with the picture of fundie christians vs muslims. it's brilliant
    Closets after closets
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #4 - March 23, 2010, 03:52 AM
    I don't like moral relativism either but Harris' arguments against it are pretty weak.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #5 - March 23, 2010, 04:22 AM
    AisaLagtaHAI
    Quote
    amazing

    can someone find me the slide with the picture of fundie christians vs muslims. it's brilliant


    you may be interested in watching Deedat vs Swaggart  videos..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdDi-1CPmwE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znS3JXjt4U8


    there are 23 videos in the tube
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #6 - March 23, 2010, 07:51 AM
    You are taking me down memory lane here. The Deedat debates were the staple of eighties and was regular viewing for me. The christians were rather naive at the time and not familiar with Deedat's showmanship. They have improved now and are doing their homework.
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #7 - March 23, 2010, 02:37 PM
    Yeah, I remember Deedat too. He was so highly regarded. He was a pioneer of sorts, there hadn't really been Muslim vs Christian debates of this sort before him (i think). He's really one of the founders of the modern western "dawah" practice.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #8 - March 23, 2010, 03:00 PM
    Yeah me too. From what I remember he was quite good.
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #9 - March 23, 2010, 03:31 PM
    Harris is acting like he's the first atheist who values both scientific inquiry AND universal moral principles. He makes excellent points, but these are not new ideas by any means.
    fuck you
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #10 - March 23, 2010, 03:39 PM
    Quote from: z10 on March 23, 2010, 03:52 AM
    I don't like moral relativism either but Harris' arguments against it are pretty weak.


    scarcely has one.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #11 - March 23, 2010, 03:43 PM
    Geez u guyz. Instead of knocking him maybe elaborate a bit. I thought the talk was great.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #12 - March 23, 2010, 04:13 PM
    Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions

    No, it can't...

    bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #13 - March 23, 2010, 04:16 PM
    Why not, NineBerry?

    Cannot rational inquiry answer moral questions?

    And cannot scientific method establish knowledge which assists us in such rational inquiry?
    fuck you
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #14 - March 23, 2010, 04:32 PM
    Don't get me started on Deedat.

    It's his fault we've got these hoardes of frauds and hacks like Zakir Naik. Plus he said Salman Rushdie should be killed for writing The Satanic Verses. Crackpot.

    And science alone can't answer ethical questions because science is purely discriptive. Morality is entirely dependent on philosophy. Science simply provides empirical information that can help to inform our moral decisions and ideas.

    I suppose, given this, science could also be abused and used as a means of justifying morally abhorrent practices, e.g., eugenics. Say, to eradicate all stupid people so that the general intelligence of the human race is increased.

    Philosophy above all informs morality. It is, after all, from philosophical axioms that morality is developed, not scientific facts.
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #15 - March 23, 2010, 05:40 PM
    The reason why we ignore the Taliban's 'expertise' on physics but not their judgement of morality is because there is no objective, universal measurement of morality as there is with physics. We can measure peoples knowledge of physics with exams, the same cannot be said about morality; everybody has their own method of measurement concerning this area and there are many disagreements.

    Quote
    And science alone can't answer ethical questions because science is purely discriptive. Morality is entirely dependent on philosophy. Science simply provides empirical information that can help to inform our moral decisions and ideas.

    Cant say I agree with you there. Science will explain where morality originated from, what mutations caused certain behaviours to pass on and others to die out, what environmental factors influence our behaviours, what part of the brain controls which actions etc. These types of questions only science can answer.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #16 - March 23, 2010, 05:42 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 22, 2010, 06:46 PM
    Holy shit that talk was amazing. Please do check it out guys! Sam Harris 4eva.

    Best slide in that talk:
    (Clicky for piccy!)

    The image on the left looks like the terracotta army
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #17 - March 23, 2010, 05:42 PM
    Moar like burqacotta army

    *oh snap!*
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #18 - March 23, 2010, 05:46 PM
     Cheesy
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #19 - March 23, 2010, 07:48 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on March 23, 2010, 05:40 PM
    Cant say I agree with you there. Science will explain where morality originated from, what mutations caused certain behaviours to pass on and others to die out, what environmental factors influence our behaviours, what part of the brain controls which actions etc. These types of questions only science can answer.


    Evolution may explain where the neurological/physiological apparatus that enables us to make moral judgements came from. It will not explain the origin of every individual moral notion and premise.

    Sociology may show that certain upbringings and environments can predispose people to certain moral viewpoints. However, I do not think that morality is baseless and is merely the result of random mutations and sociological conditioning.

    I think there is a genuine objective morality. I simply see flawed morals as failings in the judgement of the individal who holds them. These flawed morals do not demonstrate the non-existence of objective morality any more than a flawed perception demonstrates the non-existence of an objective, external reality.

    For instance, what is the evolutionary origin of the idea that it is moral to force women to cover themselves up in public? What is the evolutionary origin of the belief that it is morally acceptable to hit one's wife?  Or what is the evolutionary explanation of the idea that equality and liberty are better than tyranny and oppression?

    Too many atheists see science as something that can answer all questions. I think they need to understand that not all things can be reduced to having a purely scientific explanation.

    I mean really, moral philosophies are based on some kind of rationality and reasoning. The scientific method itself was not written by people's genes into their minds. It was devised and developed by individuals through reasoning, observation and analysis.
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #20 - March 23, 2010, 09:14 PM
    I haven't had time to watch the vid yet but I'll comment anyway. It's always best to pontificate without hearing anything that might contradict your preconceptions.  Wink

    Science cannot answer moral questions. No can do. It can evaluate some of the variables involved in some moral questions and by doing that can give information that may lead to better answers, but of itself it can't answer them. If Harris was seriously proposing that it could then he is off his rocker IMO.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #21 - March 23, 2010, 10:25 PM
    Honestly, if science is able to describe a perfect moral framework then the human race is in trouble. In my personal opinion that would be human morality wouldn't be adaptable to situations and the adaptability of morality couldn't happen.  

    Science may be able to explain how it came to pass or the specific conditions that create different "moralities" ( like the desert culture's emphasis on taking care of visitors in morality, while in more resource rich environments this emphasis isn't as much), or even the different moralities that play on our mind for instance.

    http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pwb/01/1022/

    This study is a pretty amazing read btw.  

    I thought the title of the youtube clip was misleading.  Sam Harris never claims that science can completely answer moral questions.  In fact in the first 5 minutes he said that it wont.

    He is saying that science should get into the business of morality and not leave it up to the philosophers and religious people. 
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #22 - March 23, 2010, 11:04 PM
    Ok I've watched the vid now and he did give an excellent speech IMO. Yes, the title of the video is misleading.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #23 - March 23, 2010, 11:20 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on March 23, 2010, 07:48 PM
    Evolution may explain where the neurological/physiological apparatus that enables us to make moral judgements came from. It will not explain the origin of every individual moral notion and premise.

    Sociology may show that certain upbringings and environments can predispose people to certain moral viewpoints. However, I do not think that morality is baseless and is merely the result of random mutations and sociological conditioning.

    I think there is a genuine objective morality. I simply see flawed morals as failings in the judgement of the individal who holds them. These flawed morals do not demonstrate the non-existence of objective morality any more than a flawed perception demonstrates the non-existence of an objective, external reality.

    For instance, what is the evolutionary origin of the idea that it is moral to force women to cover themselves up in public? What is the evolutionary origin of the belief that it is morally acceptable to hit one's wife?  Or what is the evolutionary explanation of the idea that equality and liberty are better than tyranny and oppression?

    Too many atheists see science as something that can answer all questions. I think they need to understand that not all things can be reduced to having a purely scientific explanation.

    I mean really, moral philosophies are based on some kind of rationality and reasoning. The scientific method itself was not written by people's genes into their minds. It was devised and developed by individuals through reasoning, observation and analysis.


    What you are saying is that if everyone used their logical reasoning we would all have the same morals?

    Ye but people's reasoning and perceptions are different.

    I mean I agree flawed morals do not disprove objective reality but what substantial evidence is there to prove it does exist?

    Even if everyone used their reasoning we will still get different views on morality imo.

    I do see your point very much though, good post.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #24 - March 23, 2010, 11:33 PM
    The point is that as we accumulate more information and are able to make more comparisons there is likely to be less divergence about what is the optimal behaviour in any given circumstance. This is not at all likely to lead to unanimity in the future but is likely to lead to a broader consensus.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #25 - March 23, 2010, 11:40 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 23, 2010, 11:33 PM
    The point is that as we accumulate more information and are able to make more comparisons there is likely to be less divergence about what is the optimal behaviour in any given circumstance. This is not at all likely to lead to unanimity in the future but is likely to lead to a broader consensus.


    Ye I agree. However, do you think objective morality exists or to what extent do you believe it's existence is plausible?

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #26 - March 23, 2010, 11:48 PM
    Tricky question. Not really, in the strict sense of the term, because if the basis for it is the ability to feel suffering of some sort and the principle that this should be alleviated as much as possible then you have no logical way of proving that this is an absolute benefit or that it is necessarily desirable. This was what drove Kant up the wall when he tried to formulate an objective basis for ethics. He should have had more sense than to try. Smiley

    On the other hand I think that, more or less objectively, we can say that it is better if societies do not include unnecessary suffering and there are observed ways of increasing it and of decreasing it. Some of these ways are debatable and some really are not.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #27 - March 23, 2010, 11:52 PM
    Ye that's fair enough I guess. Kant really did bite off more than he could chew.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #28 - March 23, 2010, 11:55 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on March 23, 2010, 05:40 PM
    Cant say I agree with you there. Science will explain where morality originated from, what mutations caused certain behaviours to pass on and others to die out, what environmental factors influence our behaviours, what part of the brain controls which actions etc. These types of questions only science can answer.


    Well questions about how we have come to develop certain moral beliefs are actually psychological questions. Moral questions are questions like "Is it ever right to steal?" Questions of this sort can't be answered by science.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
     Reply #29 - March 23, 2010, 11:57 PM
    Can anyone define "objectivity" when it comes to human behaviour? I mean, really? Is it ever something that you yourself are not? (not specifically "you", but anyone)

    Sometimes you can, sometimes you Kant. grin12
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
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