All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!

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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #30 - March 24, 2010, 03:27 PM

Quote from: Iblis on March 24, 2010, 03:15 PM
Perhaps I'm thinking of very different educational exhibits. Could you point me to a specific example of an institution like a museum promoting the idea of exceptionalism?

Iblis, when I lived in London a few years back, local taxpayers money was used to fund an exhibition at Camden libraries about 'The Glories of Islam'. It was a highly propagandistic piece that even included in it assertions about the civilising impact of Islam on lands that it conquered, although it did so in a very polite way. It was put together in consultation with local Islamic groups, and part of the whole multi-cultural vibe. One month the Chinese community would have a display of Chinese calligraphy, dragons, Chinese astorlogy, that kind of thing. During Black History Month they would have an exhibition about Mary Seacole and other Black British icons from history. The Indians would have a display about diwali and Bollywood or something. None of those things had anything like the same tenor, or politicised intent as the Islamic displays, which even included in them passages about how Islamic science flourished because the Quran instructs Muslims to seek out knowledge, all that kind of thing.

I am talking about ideological exhibitions and programmes, things like 'Islamic Awareness Week', that is a fixture in the British calendar, and contentious TV programmes like Rageh Omaars 'History of Islam in Europe' from the BBC, that have a very fixed, partial agenda. I'm not talking about the British Museum holding an exhibition of Mughal tapestries or something like that.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #31 - March 24, 2010, 03:28 PM

Quote from: Iblis on March 24, 2010, 03:25 PM
Should I deny my admiration for works of our ancestors because some dawah fuck wants to use it for his purposes?

No you shouldn't and nobody has said that you should.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #32 - March 24, 2010, 03:29 PM

Quote
Sure, it is. But should we really be held hostage by that? Should I deny my admiration for works of our ancestors because some dawah fuck wants to use it for his purposes? Should you deny the achievements of the enlightenment because a stormfronter uses it to show the superiority of white culture?

This is a bit of a strawman Iblis, nobody has even suggested that you should do any of the above. We're simply pointing out the fallacy of crediting Islam with the works of your ancestors and misusing the legacy by claiming it as proof that Islam is true.

Quote
My only point is just because we have modern dipshits using historical facts for propaganda, doesn't mean those historical facts should be diminished.

We know that, but this thread was started in response to muslims on You Tube misusing those historical facts as described above. That's why everybody else in the thread is calling them on it. Its stupid, its like crediting Christianity with the works of Isaac Newton, and we're right to call bullshit on it.

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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #33 - March 24, 2010, 03:29 PM

Quote from: billy on March 24, 2010, 03:27 PM
Iblis, when I lived in London a few years back, local taxpayers money was used to fund an exhibition at Camden libraries about 'The Glories of Islam'. It was a highly propagandistic piece that even included in it assertions about the civilising impact of Islam on lands that it conquered, although it did so in a very polite way. It was put together in consultation with local Islamic groups, and part of the whole multi-cultural vibe. One month the Chinese community would have a display of Chinese calligraphy, dragons, Chinese astorlogy, that kind of thing. During Black History Month they would have an exhibition about Mary Seacole and other Black British icons from history. The Indians would have a display about diwali and Bollywood or something. None of those things had anything like the same tenor, or politicised intent as the Islamic displays, which even included in them passages about how Islamic science flourished because the Quran instructs Muslims to seek out knowledge, all that kind of thing.

I am talking about ideological exhibitions and programmes, things like 'Islamic Awareness Week', that is a fixture in the British calendar, and contentious TV programmes like Rageh Omaars 'History of Islam in Europe' from the BBC, that have a very fixed, partial agenda. I'm not talking about the British Museum holding an exhibition of Mughal tapestries or something like that.

Okay, I think we're on the same page now. That^ kind of shit is PURE propaganda, no if ands or buts about it. I have a MAJOR problem when muslims associate the achievemnets of the past with "Islam". They are not interchangeable. I think we can discuss and praise individual achievements for what they were. Or individual aspects. And it should be done in a secular scholarly manner. An "islamic" group has NO place in the discussion of history or arts or culture. It's the equivalent of the BNP doing an exhibition about the "glories of britain" and showcasing Isaac Newton.

And yes, Rageh Omars little BBC doc was definitely pure propaganda. Political and religious apologists have no place in a historical discussion.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #34 - March 24, 2010, 03:38 PM

Iblis, a few years ago, the British govenment decided to hold a year long 'celebration' of Islamic culture. They did so in partnership with the MCB, a Jamat-e-Islami dominated organisation that claims to be the representatives of Islam in Britain. They directly vetoed and demanded that certain exhibitions and artists included in this 'festival' of Islamic culture be dropped, because it interfered with their ideas of how Islam and Islamic history should be presented.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #35 - March 24, 2010, 03:42 PM

Quote from: billy on March 24, 2010, 03:38 PM
Iblis, a few years ago, the British govenment decided to hold a year long 'celebration' of Islamic culture. They did so in partnership with the MCB, a Jamat-e-Islami dominated organisation that claims to be the representatives of Islam in Britain. They directly vetoed and demanded that certain exhibitions and artists included in this 'festival' of Islamic culture be dropped, because it interfered with their ideas of how Islam and Islamic history should be presented.

This is what angers me so much. What on earth qualifies the MCB to speak on historical or cultural issues? They are a religio-poltical front group, religion and politics have no place in any sort of cultural or historical exhibit! This is why a *accurate* and *authentic* display of what medieval islam was like is so important. A group like the MCB would never be comfortable with all the homoerotic and infidel ideas of a huge chunk of medieval muslim scholars and artitsts.

I think the bottom line is what the purpose of such events are. Are you doing this to educate and enrich people in general? Or are you doing it to promote a specific ideological and politically/religiously laden viewpoint?

I support museums showcasing the works of muslim medieval culture, but I support it along with showing the beauty of ancient persia or the Roman empire. For me it's a purely historical and enlightening learning experience. Not a ideological one.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #36 - March 24, 2010, 03:45 PM

Well, there are many ideologically commited Islamic activists and groups that see multiculturalism and liberal sympathy for the image of Muslims and Islam due to terrorism and extremism etc as an opportunity to gain access to public funds and shape dawah for Islam. For them, the crisis in Islam, and in British Islam, is an opportunity to do dawah. Every cloud has a silver lining and all that.

The BBC thing is something else. Its not as self consciously aggressive, it doesn't intend to do dawah, but it does have its failings and its own agenda when it comes to things like the Rageh Omaar documentary.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #37 - March 24, 2010, 04:47 PM

Iblis this has nothing to do with the achievements of Muslims in the past - some of which were truly great. It is about idiots who want to then draw the conclusion that this confirms Islam. Something the most of the great Muslim scholars themselves (who were mostly skeptics and in some cases out-right anti religion) would not have subscribed to.

More than that - as my title suggests - these idiots go on to exaggerate the achievements and claim every single invention and advance for Islam.

Much like that guy from "Goodness Gracious Me" who always said "India" to everything his children mentioned.
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #38 - March 24, 2010, 04:51 PM

Well my replies were not really aimed at your OP. So I guess my points were sort of tangential to the topic. But yes, I don't think there's any doubts these people love to conlfate their religion with separate non-religious facts.

But then again, these are the same people who think ants can talk. So.. whaddya expect?

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Reply #39 - March 24, 2010, 04:58 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjWd9a8Ck8U
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #40 - March 24, 2010, 04:59 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub7Wan0b5uk
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #41 - March 24, 2010, 05:51 PM

Kind of reminds me of that episode of Louis Theroux where those black supremacists said that all influential people throughout history, including the American founding fathers, were black.
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #42 - March 24, 2010, 07:37 PM

Quote from: Hassan on March 24, 2010, 04:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjWd9a8Ck8U

haha! I loved that show.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #43 - March 24, 2010, 10:53 PM

I think this is the BS that we were talking about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox2iZOKStCk&feature=player_embedded

By the way I just called BS on some guy that was presenting this and analyzed this to say that Muslims had to go back to living Sharia to be ontop of the scientific world. Anyone want to help me out with some irreligious, atheistic, or scientists that were generally persecuted for their views?

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #44 - March 24, 2010, 10:58 PM

All time Zakir Naik classic from that video ^^^

"The question, if the Quran speaks so much about science, how come the Muslims are backward? Sister, I would mainly blame, the media"

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #45 - March 24, 2010, 11:05 PM

Quote from: billy on March 24, 2010, 10:58 PM
All time Zakir Naik classic from that video ^^^

"The question, if the Quran speaks so much about science, how come the Muslims are backward? Sister, I would mainly blame, the media"

Yeah, it's ALL the West's fault! None of the backwardness and ignorance of the Muslim world is the fault of Muslims, it's all the Jewish Zionist-Crusader conspiracy forces that control the media!

Maybe if these people actually developed a sense of self-criticism they'd be able to make some important realisations about their condition and subsequently rectify it.
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #46 - March 24, 2010, 11:38 PM

Zakir Naik is the very embodiment of the answer to his question.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #47 - March 25, 2010, 12:08 AM

Naik cracks me the hell up. I despise him, but sometimes I can't help but think maybe he's just lampooning Islamic apologists in general. His character does seem to be something of a caricature.
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #48 - March 25, 2010, 12:10 AM

I've always wondered if he's just trolling. I'm pretty sure he doesn't believe his own shit.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #49 - March 25, 2010, 12:19 AM

I doubt he believes a word of his crap either.

It's probably just because he makes a decent living doing it. He's a conscious fraud and hack, but at least he has his legions of fan-boys that believe everything he says.

I suspect that's the case for most apologists.
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #50 - March 25, 2010, 12:20 AM

somewhere Iblis said this
Quote
Besides, I think really delving into and educating people about muslim history and civilization can be a very secularising influence. Medieval muslims scholars and leaders and artists and poets were the total opposite of what the dawaghandists are. They were largely secular, open-minded and ecclectic individuals. How on earth does an exhibit on, say, Omaar Khayaam's poetry in any way support the agenda of the Islamists? If anything, muslim medieval history is totally dominated by culturally liberal, heretical and homoerotic characters.

If anything a genuine and authentic display of medieval muslim civilization would be totally *against* the islamist agenda!

May I suggest you something on what you wrote above dear Iblis.,?? I know as I read your posts after the above one you changed your direction of explaining the Advancement of Science, Poetry, pottery ..construction ..whatever.. THAT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH Mr. Muhammad's Islam and Muslims who followed him. It is In fact inspite of Islam not because of Islam ., Same thing to the scientific advancement that is given to humanity by the folks other religions, With slight difference. There was bit more freedom (NOT MUCH)for those who wanted to explore Science in other countries and cultures unlike those who followed Islamic cultures., And that difference has increased leaps and bounds in 17th to 20th century. And My wish is in this 21st century Folks that were in Islam will give equal contribution in advancing cause of humanity consequently that planet and the nature will stay as natural as possible a bit longer than otherwise.

So never ever give a chance to the strict followers of religions for advancing Science. Neither it was there before Christ nor it is there after Muhammad..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #51 - March 25, 2010, 12:26 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on March 25, 2010, 12:20 AM
THAT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH Mr. Muhammad's Islam and Muslims who followed him. It is In fact inspite of Islam not because of Islam .

Yes I totally agree with you. That's why I'm fascinated by medieval muslim history, because it was a time when Islam was fairly diluted and most of the best parts of that era was that Muslims were not very Islamic - or as you say "Mr Muhammad's Islam". Which is very, the authentic Islam of Muhammad is quite different than what many Muslim practiced in places like Bangladesh or Indonesia.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #52 - March 25, 2010, 03:27 AM

The Crusades Through Arab Eyes is a good book.
I bought a few books on the History of Bangladesh but they are so poorly written I can't get past the first few pages.

My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #53 - March 25, 2010, 03:29 AM

Hey SB..

This is a good book about Bangladesh from the coming of Islam till the British. It's very well written and researched.

http://www.amazon.ca/Rise-Islam-Bengal-Frontier-1204-1760/dp/0520205073/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269487746&sr=8-2

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #54 - March 25, 2010, 03:52 AM

My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #55 - March 25, 2010, 07:22 AM

Submissive Bob
Quote
The Crusades Through Arab Eyes is a good book.
I bought a few books on the History of Bangladesh but they are so poorly written I can't get past the first few pages.

An interesting thing i realized comparing myself the way I used to read books 5 or 6 years back to to day is., My concentration quickly drifts away from book reading to questioning book and author's intentions of writing such book(UNLESS IT IS A BOOK OF SCIENCE) and the answers are difficult to get from these history books dear S_Bob..

So what I am doing is I stopped reading History books all together and read the PDF files on computer., then life became easier. As I could get answers for my own question on internet at the same time read books and even write posts in to CEMB..lol..

with best wishes
yeezevee

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #56 - March 25, 2010, 08:06 AM

Iblis says
Quote
Hey SB..

This is a good book about Bangladesh from the coming of Islam till the British. It's very well written and researched.

look at that., Iblis you are multi-tasker like Prophet of Islam lol.,So you read books?? Prof. Richard Eaten from That Arizona desert seem to have done a good job on Bangladesh and Islam But i would also suggest to read the book by Muslim Authors from that part of the world to come to an UNBIASED conclusion.

So did you read that book? don't you want share a bit of excerpts of what is there in it?? I wonder whether you know anything about Kazi Nazrul Islam of Bengal??

with best
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: All Your Bases Are Belong to Us!
Reply #57 - March 25, 2010, 09:04 PM

My Gaydar is going off bigtime.

Young Nazrul

My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
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