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 Topic: The Arrogance of Islam

 (Read 6898 times)
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  • The Arrogance of Islam
     OP - March 27, 2010, 02:09 PM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7n6s_HYZeo

    Translation:

    (A questioner asks:) How do we reply to one who says if there was in Christianity a punishment for apostasy like the punishment for apostasy in Islam nobody would be able to enter Islam in Europe and the Christians in Egypt kill or seize anyone who enters and embraces Islam and say - you have the same thing in Islam.

    Mashallah! Mashallah!

    This is evil talk!

    Why?

    Because Christianity is not a universal religion. It is not a universal religion.

    The prophet (pbh) said "Each prophet was sent specifically to his people but I was sent to all mankind." (peace and blah blah blah... upon him)

    Secondly Christianity is not the final religion but is a religion that has been abrogated by Islam - a religion abrogated by Islam.

    The punishment for apostasy is only for the final religion. There is no religion that has a punishment for apostasy because each religion is abrogated by the next religion. Every divine law abrogates another law. So for example it is not permitted that Christians can worship God according to the divine laws given to Prophet Hud, because he had a divine law. (quoting from qur'an) " To each of you we have given a divine law. and a path."  So every prophet has his divine way and every divine way abrogates that which precedes it. So if there was a punishment for apostasy for each Divine Way then it would not be correct for each divine way to abrogate that which came before it.

    So the punishment for apostasy - in honour  the religion of Prophet Muhammad - became part of the final divine way that abrogates all that precedes it. And that is the Divine Law of Islam. So there is no religion on the face of the earth that has a punishment for apostasy except the Divine Law of Islam. Why? Because it is the Final Divine Way. The Complete! The Perfect! That abrogates all that was before it.
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #1 - March 27, 2010, 02:13 PM
    Let me paraphrase: "So we can kill Muslims if they leave Islam but you can't do the same if they leave your religion"

    I love the way he ays the punishment for apostasy is "in honour" of Islam.

    I feel honoured - I hope you do too!
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #2 - March 27, 2010, 02:52 PM
    Special pleading.... the favourite fallacy of the religious?
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #3 - March 27, 2010, 02:54 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 27, 2010, 02:09 PM
    So the punishment for apostasy - in honour  the religion of Prophet Muhammad ...

    How can there be honour in such an immoral act?
    The answer:  god prescribed it.

    The biggest problem I have with literalist Islam is that it tries so hard to dehumanize its followers and tries to anaesthetize them against their elementary spontaneous morality.

    Sadly it often succeeds.
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #4 - March 27, 2010, 02:58 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on March 27, 2010, 02:54 PM
    How can there be honour in such an immoral act?
    The answer:  god prescribed it.

    The biggest problem I have with literalist Islam is that it tries so hard to dehumanize its followers and tries to anaesthetize them against their elementary spontaneous morality.

    Sadly it often succeeds.



    Spot on Kenan - when you speak to these Salafi types it's like you are not getting through to the person - just talking to a robot who parrots stuff.
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #5 - March 27, 2010, 03:24 PM
    They positively eschew the innate moral sense. They see it as an 'idol' that has to be gotten rid of and brought into conformity with the 'Law of God.'

    I just finished reading Maududi's tafsir on Surah 9, in which he talks about the ideal Islamic society that existed in Madina. It was basically just a completely collectivistic society in which the collective wills of all individuals in the society are brought into perfect conformity with the  tenets of Islam and the will of its 'beloved Leader' (he actually uses those words).

    It's interesting if you read Nineteen Eighty-Four, or look at totalitarian societies in general, and compare it with Islam. you see that the ideal Islamic model for society is pretty much a perfect totalitarian and collectivistic state.
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #6 - March 27, 2010, 03:27 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on March 27, 2010, 03:24 PM
    They positively eschew the innate moral sense. They see it as an 'idol' that has to be gotten rid of and brought into conformity with the 'Law of God.'


    Yes they see it as worshipping your 'nafs' (self). I remember many discussions with these types, saying "I think..." and being cut off with them saying - "In Islam what you think is of no importance you must follow daleel" (Islamic evidence from Qur'an or Sunna.)
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #7 - March 27, 2010, 03:49 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 27, 2010, 03:27 PM
    Yes they see it as worshipping your 'nafs' (self). I remember many discussions with these types, saying "I think..." and being cut off with them saying - "In Islam what you think is of no importance you must follow daleel" (Islamic evidence from Qur'an or Sunna.)


    That's another problem with the religion.

    The only people who are really able to say what is right or wrong according to the Sunnah and Qur'an are the scholars, because they know classical Arabic, the hadith, the historical contexts, etc.

    So, people are more or less at the mercy of scholars to tell them what is right and wrong. I don't know the verse number, but I'm pretty sure there's one in the Qur'an that says that if you don't understand something, then you should go to someone with knowledge. So, to know what the religion actually teaches, people essentially have to rely on what scholars, mere humans, say about it.

    That's particularly bad in the case of Islam as it's a system that's imposed on the whole of society. So, if a group of scholars come up with a particularly backward and nasty interpretation of Islam, you're fucked.

    Saudi Arabia comes to mind.
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #8 - March 27, 2010, 04:32 PM
    Well this basically sums up why Islam (literalist version) is the worst of the 3 Abrahamic religions, because it makes claims to be the final, perfect religion and the one to abrogate all other previous ones. Hence, it regards itself as the only valid divine path to follow now. The essential message is we are all slaves to this celestial tyrant, and Islam is the only perfect way of submitting to his tyrant so Muslims are under obligation to show the 'ignorant' kuffars the error of their ways. Offensive war is permissible according to Surah 9 in order to achieve this.

    It's a totalitarian ideology.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #9 - March 27, 2010, 04:48 PM
    You might say it's a killer feature of Islam. Everybody upgrade, or else!
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
    Wikis: en – de – fr – ar – tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #10 - March 27, 2010, 05:08 PM
    Quote from: Aziz on March 27, 2010, 04:48 PM
    Everybody upgrade, or else!


     Cheesy

    And don't even think about uninstalling the software!

    Once installed it's there for life - get it!


  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #11 - March 27, 2010, 05:20 PM
    Ye, like one of those fake antivirus programs.

    They are tough to get rid of.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #12 - March 27, 2010, 05:24 PM
    btw why does this type always go for the ugly and drab look?
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #13 - March 27, 2010, 05:27 PM
    Probably.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #14 - March 28, 2010, 01:05 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 27, 2010, 05:08 PM
    Cheesy

    And don't even think about uninstalling the software!

    Once installed it's there for life - get it!


    Has anyone informed Muslims about Bahai? Tongue
    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #15 - March 28, 2010, 01:31 PM
    That is such a stupid, fallacious argument which essentially boils down to - "It is allright to leave other religions, but it is punishable to leave Islam because we know that Islam is true"

    Christians know that christianity is true, hindus know that hinduism is true, Jewish people know that Judaism is true etc.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #16 - March 28, 2010, 02:29 PM

    Arrogance is exactly what it is.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #17 - April 10, 2010, 11:51 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 27, 2010, 02:09 PM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7n6s_HYZeo

    Translation:

    (A questioner asks:) How do we reply to one who says if there was in Christianity a punishment for apostasy like the punishment for apostasy in Islam nobody would be able to enter Islam in Europe and the Christians in Egypt kill or seize anyone who enters and embraces Islam and say - you have the same thing in Islam.

    Mashallah! Mashallah!

    This is evil talk!

    Why?

    Because Christianity is not a universal religion. It is not a universal religion.

    The prophet (pbh) said "Each prophet was sent specifically to his people but I was sent to all mankind." (peace and blah blah blah... upon him)

    Secondly Christianity is not the final religion but is a religion that has been abrogated by Islam - a religion abrogated by Islam.

    The punishment for apostasy is only for the final religion. There is no religion that has a punishment for apostasy because each religion is abrogated by the next religion. Every divine law abrogates another law. So for example it is not permitted that Christians can worship God according to the divine laws given to Prophet Hud, because he had a divine law. (quoting from qur'an) " To each of you we have given a divine law. and a path."  So every prophet has his divine way and every divine way abrogates that which precedes it. So if there was a punishment for apostasy for each Divine Way then it would not be correct for each divine way to abrogate that which came before it.

    So the punishment for apostasy - in honour  the religion of Prophet Muhammad - became part of the final divine way that abrogates all that precedes it. And that is the Divine Law of Islam. So there is no religion on the face of the earth that has a punishment for apostasy except the Divine Law of Islam. Why? Because it is the Final Divine Way. The Complete! The Perfect! That abrogates all that was before it.


    @IsLame or Aziz - hey guys, I really think this would make a good Youtube video. You have my English translation there - just add the text to the downloaded video and upload it to your channel.

    I was thinking of doing it myself at first, but obviously won't be now.

    Or if you like I can add the captions and send it to who ever wants it.
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #18 - April 10, 2010, 12:12 PM
    Thanks for the translation, Hassan. Who is that guy anyway? Is he popular in the Muslim world?

    I could do the subtitles, but it's gonna be a bit more difficult to set the correct time values, because I don't understand Arabic (at most a few words and prepositions).

    I wish I could give you the program I use for subtitles. It apparently has support for OSX systems, but there's no neat downloadable install package. :(
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
    Wikis: en – de – fr – ar – tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #19 - April 10, 2010, 12:21 PM
    OK I'll do it for you later Aziz I have discovered the updated version on iMovie does it now  Afro

    I don't know the sheikh - looks like some brainless jihadi type.
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #20 - April 10, 2010, 12:50 PM
    Very cool! Thanks. Can you save the file in the SRT format? Or what formats does iMovie offer?

    *LOL* at your description.
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
    Wikis: en – de – fr – ar – tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #21 - April 10, 2010, 01:21 PM
    u should know better than to ask me technical questions - I'll have a look later - am out now (always take my laptop lol)
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #22 - April 10, 2010, 01:25 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 10, 2010, 01:21 PM
    u should know better than to ask me technical questions - I'll have a look later - am out now (always take my laptop lol)

    Cheesy. Don't get it stolen mate. Wink
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
    Wikis: en – de – fr – ar – tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #23 - April 10, 2010, 01:26 PM
    nope!
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #24 - April 10, 2010, 01:43 PM
    Oh, I should post a funny piece of log from an irc chatroom that I saved a while ago...
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #25 - April 10, 2010, 01:44 PM
    Quote
    <Zer0Co0l> just to give u a "hypothetical example" IF.. let us assume IF islam wasn't the right path and something else was, and that person told us to leave islam
    <Zer0Co0l> just imagine
    <Zer0Co0l> how difficult it wud be
    <Zer0Co0l> we would surely refute and heat and flame over it
    <Zer0Co0l> but Alhamdulillah islam is the ultimate truth
    <Guest_696> yes
    <Zer0Co0l> and we're lucky to be born and brought up as believers
    <fahad> yes and every single person have to accept it one day
    <Zer0Co0l> insha Allah

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #26 - April 11, 2010, 04:35 AM
    Quote from: Zebedee on March 27, 2010, 03:24 PM
    They positively eschew the innate moral sense. They see it as an 'idol' that has to be gotten rid of and brought into conformity with the 'Law of God.'

    I just finished reading Maududi's tafsir on Surah 9, in which he talks about the ideal Islamic society that existed in Madina. It was basically just a completely collectivistic society in which the collective wills of all individuals in the society are brought into perfect conformity with the  tenets of Islam and the will of its 'beloved Leader' (he actually uses those words).

    It's interesting if you read Nineteen Eighty-Four, or look at totalitarian societies in general, and compare it with Islam. you see that the ideal Islamic model for society is pretty much a perfect totalitarian and collectivistic state.


    Reminds me very much of the Ma'Ariful Qur'an by Maulana Mufti Muhammad Shafi (the Salafi's favourite from South East Asia) when it comes to dealing with the thorny issue of Jews being turned into pigs and apes. It truly is amazing how people from a land like India bad mouth Jews whom they would never see on a regular basis.
    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #27 - April 11, 2010, 07:05 PM
    @Aziz - Just tried adding the subtitles using iMovie but it doesn't work. The feature is for "Titles" and so is no good for adding a translation.

    Do you know any program that I can download that will allow me to add subtitles to a video?
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #28 - April 11, 2010, 08:29 PM
    Try this one: http://www.zeitanker.com/content/download/annotation_edit_demo/

    It normally costs quite a lot, but maybe the demo will be sufficient for your needs. I don't know how user friendly this program is, but I hope you'll be able to figure out the basic stuff. These tools are normally for professionals I guess.
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
    Wikis: en – de – fr – ar – tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: The Arrogance of Islam
     Reply #29 - April 11, 2010, 09:26 PM
    I know this may sound bad but at times like these, I wish it was those a-holes that were killed off. There is no "honor" in killing people because of different beliefs.
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