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Theme Changer

 Topic: Top Ex-Muslim Myths

 (Read 48258 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 4 ... 14 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #30 - March 31, 2010, 04:24 AM

     mysmilie_977
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #31 - March 31, 2010, 04:24 AM

    @Islamic, you are answering everyone except me, why? If you're not looking to troll, then don't ignore me, answer everyone.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #32 - March 31, 2010, 04:25 AM

    No you wont get banned. Just dont walk in here with the notion that we dont know Islam or understand it correctly. That's all nothing against you

    Most of us here know Islam really well and we do know what we are talking about
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #33 - March 31, 2010, 04:26 AM

    myths.. mm .. anyone else been told to say dastour before pouring hot water... u know .. to save the gins from getting burned .. even thou they're made of fire and all that jazz... Huh?


    Lol yes I was told that on a couple of occasions, and they are so SERIOUS about it too, and telling stories of people who were possessed by jinns because they did something like that. Roll Eyes

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #34 - March 31, 2010, 04:26 AM

    Sorry if we've been harsh or unfriendly to you IM. However, you should take a look at your OP, it oozes antagonism and mockery.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #35 - March 31, 2010, 04:27 AM

    @islammythology

    I don't really want to engage with you anymore because I feel you aren't being honest about what you really believe. If you really do rip islam to shreds and are an atheist, then why the defensive posture over Muhammad's clear and obvious pedophilia? No real disbeliever would try to rationalise that pervert's actions.

    But know one thing, CEMB does not ban people for holding dissenting views. Never has and never will. We even tolerate outright muslim trolls and in fact consider one to be our hero (look up "kope"). You will never be banned unless you say anything harrassing or threatening. But we're not a muslim/islamic forum so yeah we do believe in freedom of speech.  grin12

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #36 - March 31, 2010, 04:30 AM

    sometimes ridiculing is the only way you can get someone to stop and take a second look at what they are implying or better yet what they are commanding...

    i asked that dangerous question of 'what do you think'?? of aisha's marriage, stoning, ect ect ect.. and the answers i got were  always a recitation from the hadith or quran..

    the question was 'what do you think!!!'... and then a very uncomfortable  PAUSE!.. so before one can get into a deep discussion about islam or any religion for that matter....

    are you willing to put aside the teachings for one moment .. and think without infultration of doctrine?
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #37 - March 31, 2010, 04:33 AM

    I already see admins commenting about me and checking to see who is online at the same time as me and so forth. I am under watch now lol. Did I do something wrong? Well, if I end up getting banned thx to those of you who have been decent to me.

    You have to try pretty hard to get banned here, and as far as I'm aware no admins have bothered checking for duplicate accounts yet. Liberated is not one of the forum staff. If you'll recall, I'm the admin who just said that I did not think you were a sock puppet account. I said that not because I had checked but because I did not think it was worth checking. Your posting style is nothing like Tut.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #38 - March 31, 2010, 04:38 AM

    Yeah....this guys is Tutty.   Smiley

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #39 - March 31, 2010, 04:39 AM

    Jeez, for fuck's sake you guys say that about every one you suspect of being a troll. Of course he's not Tut. He's nothing like Tut, thinks nothing like him and writes nothing like him.

    Sheesh.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #40 - March 31, 2010, 04:39 AM

    Yeah....this guys is Tutty.   Smiley

    I wouldn't bet a penny on it tbh
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #41 - March 31, 2010, 04:40 AM

    Okay.  Roll Eyes

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #42 - March 31, 2010, 04:40 AM

    IM, I understand what you are saying and what you're trying to do. I just think you are (a) coming off contemptuous, by calling this forum's members assholes and by acting very defensive, really more than you need to be. (b) assuming we are homogenous. (c) talking about something that Muslims are not ready for, which means Ex Muslims won't accept it as a valid way to be a Muslim.

    I know, from having studied religion and mythology of lots of different cultures, that Islam will mostly likely eventually go the way of Christianity (which is now mostly considered a set of myths and metaphors, even by many of its followers), and Greek and Ancient Egyptian mythology etc. I do think it is a possibility in the future, a strong possibility that Islam will be seen by Muslims as another set of myths, part of humanity's millions of other myths.

    As of now though, Islam is still the greater beast, not "Ex-Muslims". Yes that term irks some people, even some atheists, because it still aligns itself with Islam but in a negative way. But I think it's needed at this point in history, to challenge the growing hegemonic politics of keeping Islam immune from criticism.

    You are welcome here, just know that this is a diverse group of people and no we're not all assholes all the time and we are open to new ideas (at least most of us are). It's generally not the best idea to walk into a room full of people and call them assholes and then expect to be taken seriously. I do think your message could be articulated better and many here would be more open to it.

    That doesn't mean that we will all call ourselves Muslim again, as that is a political decision as well as a philosophical one. As long as atheists, agnostics and heretics are not acceptable within mainstream Islam, there will be dissidents who form alternative communities, who are partly defined by that which they left, by the community and philosophy they no longer believe in but are still affiliated with by both Muslim family and friends and by racists among non-Muslims. I hope you understand the nuances of what I'm saying.

    Anyways, welcome Smiley

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #43 - March 31, 2010, 04:43 AM

    allat just laid down the truf.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #44 - March 31, 2010, 04:44 AM

    Jeez, for fuck's sake you guys say that about every one you suspect of being a troll. Of course he's not Tut. He's nothing like Tut, thinks nothing like him and writes nothing like him.

    Sheesh.


    Forgive us not for not doing a phd in tut's posting style ... lol. I only remember that tut used to defend muslims and islam in the same way that this guy does. Do you remember that tut justified beating of women because chimpanzee males beat their females or something like that? His example of how to justify pedophelia is not too different.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #45 - March 31, 2010, 04:47 AM

    I know, from having studied religion and mythology of lots of different cultures, that Islam will mostly likely eventually go the way of Christianity (which is now mostly considered a set of myths and metaphors, even by many of its followers), and Greek and Ancient Egyptian mythology etc. I do think it is a possibility in the future, a strong possibility that Islam will be seen by Muslims as another set of myths, part of humanity's millions of other myths.

    Wow, can you please shed some more light on that? I'd love to hear why you think this.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #46 - March 31, 2010, 04:47 AM

    .
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #47 - March 31, 2010, 04:53 AM

    .
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #48 - March 31, 2010, 04:56 AM

    i posed the picture Islam Mythology

    It wasn't argument from emotion. It was to show you that 9 Year old are LITTLE KIDS. Doesn't matter how much you try to rationalize it and say it was the culture back then, it doesn't change the facts. Little children have no grasp of marriage and are not developed as physical adults, so anything sexual towards them by an Adult is Pedophilia.

    The practice back then could have been common but still it was wrong, it is wrong and it will always be
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #49 - March 31, 2010, 04:57 AM

    @IM, to be a pedophile you simply have to have an attraction for young children. Just like if you feel attraction for women, you are hetrosexual, if you feel it for men, you are bisexual/gay, and if you feel it for children, you are pedophile.

    I'm not able to get a stiffy for a 9 year old at all. Are you? Mohammed was, so clearly he was a pedophile.

    And FYI, all of his wives were much, much younger than him except one or two. Many of them were in their early - mid teens.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #50 - March 31, 2010, 05:00 AM

    I think the mistake you are making is that you are assuming that arranged marriages with children happened because those men had a sexual interest in children. Some men do have a sexual interest in children that is true. Was that Muhammad's motive?

    I think it is the most likely explanation.


    Quote
    - He didn't marry any other children.
    - He waited, as was customary, until Aisha was a little older (still pre-pubescent though, contrary to Muslim opinion) to marry her
    - Aisha was the daughter of Muhammad's greatest Companion. Muhammad had just recently moved to Medina and much of what he was doing as about creating bonds so that his religion could survive. Most of the closest Companions married each other's sons and daughters. Wasn't the sealing of bonds a possible motive of Muhammad's?

    Then you must also consider that:

    1/ Six years of age, which is how old Aisha was when married, is hardly "a little older" unless you are taking newborn babies as the reference point.
    2/ If by "a little older" you mean nine years of age, that is when Mohammed consumated the marriage.
    3/ There was no necessity for him to screw Aisha when she was nine. He could have waited until she was nineteen or whatever. Bear in mind that with his position as prophet nobody would have dared to seriously criticise him for waiting. It was his choice. He had already been married to her for three years anyway and had a stack of adult wives and slaves for having sex with.
    4/ Not only did he choose to screw her when she was nine, but thereafter she was his favourite bonk and he would take any excuse to avoid all the other wives and spend his time in the sack with Aisha. That should tell you something.
    5/ He was the prophet. His word was enough to seal bonds. Sexual abusing little girls was not necessary.


    Quote
    One of the reasons I have found for people marrying off their daughters young is that they are poor and want to collect the mahr/dowry. It also connects you to another family ASAP, which opens up new resources for your own family. In tribal societies like Muhammad's, this was part of survival. If Abu Bakr hadn't married Aisha off to Muhammad she was to be married to someone else. Was Abu Bakr itching to peddle his daughter off to pedophiles?

    As one of Mohammed's closest companions Abu Bakr would have got a good share of all the booty that resulted from the actions of the Muslims. I very much doubt that he was significantly poorer than any other Muslim at the time. In fact I'd hazard a guess that he was considerably better off than most.


    Quote
    Btw, my point about grandfathers wasn't meant to be so much emotional as it was meant to give you a close example that you might be able to grasp. Because you might reflect on your grandfathers and you may have heard some of the stories and it might hit you that, no, my grandfather wasn't a pedophile - something else was happening there.

    You've just contradicted yourself. It is obvious that you were relying on an emotional reaction. Sorry to disappoint.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #51 - March 31, 2010, 05:04 AM

    Wow, can you please shed some more light on that? I'd love to hear why you think this.


    Historically, all religions have ended up evolving into metaphors and then as sets of myths, almost irrelevant in the lives of the people whose ancestors used to see those religions as literal truths about the world. If you study the history of religion, that's the trajectory of all religions.

    So, it used to be, Christians ran the state in most of Europe and North America, and many times, burnt or executed those among them who they considered heretics. The same with many other religions, maybe not to such an extreme, but the ancient Egyptian cults (it was not just 1 religion, it was like Hinduism a related set of cults), they believed that the Pharoahs were *literally* gods or sent by gods. Not metaphorically even, but literally. Today, all that is considered "mythology". Same with ancient Greek religions, Aztec religions, and Hindu religions (which is still around but always evolving and extremely heterogenous).

    So the point is that yesterday's religions are today's mythology and so it's historically valid to deduce that today's religions will be tomorrow's mythologies.

    How exactly will that occur? Well, we are part of history too. We are part of that movement away from literal Islam and into Islam as mythology. Perhaps if nothing else, then out of a result of the fear of losing Muslims, Islam will reform (as it is already doing in various ways). It's an ongoing back and forth process that takes years, generations. We have to recognize where we are in history, and we can do that by learning about our own history, humanity's history, other people's history, from different perspectives and seeing the forest and the trees at the same time.


    IM, I'd love to hear what Muslims think of your ideas when you discuss them with them.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #52 - March 31, 2010, 05:05 AM

    .
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #53 - March 31, 2010, 05:05 AM

     Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17: Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When I
    got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have
    married a matron' He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the young virgins and for fondling
    them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might
    play with her and she with you?'


  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #54 - March 31, 2010, 05:08 AM

    As one of Mohammed's closest companions Abu Bakr would have got a good share of all the booty that resulted from the actions of the Muslims. I very much doubt that he was significantly poorer than any other Muslim at the time. In fact I'd hazard a guess that he was considerably better off than most.

    Yes, exactly. Abu bakar was amongst the wealthiest, and he also bought and freed muslim slaves.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #55 - March 31, 2010, 05:09 AM

    I like that I am being referred to as "this guy" lol.

    You should see some of the things I've been called here. Cheesy


    Quote
    I'm not justifying pedophilia, I am asserting that sex isn't always the motive when we read about a child marriage in history.

    True, but I still think that sex was a primary motive in the case of Mohammed and his actions towards Aisha.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #56 - March 31, 2010, 05:09 AM

    I like that I am being referred to as "this guy" lol.

    The chimpanzee thing is funny, it comes from a hadith where a group of chimpanzees are seen stoning to death a (supposedly) transgressing chimpanzee. Look, in the 7th century this was LOGICAL lol. So consider what we are critiquing here, we're talking the early 600s, 610-632.

    I'm not justifying pedophilia, I am asserting that sex isn't always the motive when we read about a child marriage in history.

    No, actually tut posted some research which showed that chimpanzee males hit their females, and he used that to try saying that its natural for males to hit females, he didn't give reference of that hadith.

    In any case, sorry if you aren't tut, I just felt a similarity between your first posts and his posts.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #57 - March 31, 2010, 05:11 AM

    If Muhammad was a pedophile can you imagine how many pedophile grandfathers you have? Muhammad's marriage to Aisha was an arranged marriage. It was arranged when she was 6 or 7 and they were married when she was 9 or 10. That is how they did things back then. Why? That is a question for cultural anthropology. I would guess that just about all of us have a number of ancestors who did this, as this wasn't specific to Arab culture alone. That brings up another point - Muhammad didn't invent this practice so why does he get the blame? He is just another Arab guy in 7th century Arabia getting an arranged marriage. Your real contention is with Arab culture and arranged marriages. Why do you expect Muhammad to act outside of his culture? You know he wasn't a prophet. I'm not saying this practice is ok, or that we should accept it for whatever practical reasons it originally served, but he wasn't a pedophile.

    His first wife was 15 years his senior and he was married to her for 25 years. His other wives were in their 20s, 30s, or older.


    If Muhammad were just practicing social and cultural norms then none of us would have a problem. The problem is that many Muslims have elevated Muhammad to the most perfect, most wonderful, infallible, most excellent person who has ever existed so that every action he did was divinely inspired and acceptable for ever - in other words, what he did in the 7th century is perfectly ok to do today - that is why you have child brides around the world in Muslim countries. Muhammad is the best example and they're merely following the person whom they elevated to a status almost equal to that of God.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #58 - March 31, 2010, 05:14 AM

    <snip>

    Interesting.... One thing which does worry me though, is that did those religions also use to have as strong censorship rules as islam does? I.e killing all who oppose it, indoctrinating their kids so deeply into it, etc..
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #59 - March 31, 2010, 05:28 AM

    I appreciate your comments very much, thank you. The 'assholes' comment was just in return to a lot of digs that were coming my way, I didn't mean that to you or other forum members not involved. I was Rambo in the cave on the radio, "They drew first blood, not me" lol. Besides having a controversial guy like me around makes the forum more interesting don't you think? Everyone likes a little drama... : )


    LOL you sure got everyone's attention Wink

    I just think your tone turned off people, and what you are saying is distasteful to Ex Muslims because there's a presumption that we who have left Islam, often due to very personal as well as ideological reasons, are wrong, because we're not thinking of Islam as a set of myths, when most of us would love to see Muslims see Islam as a set of myths and not something to be taken literally. The problem is that Muslims are stuck (at least most of them, though not all) in a mind-freeze set up by clerics who wield power over their very thoughts, using the fear of an invisible sky daddy.

    When Islam as a whole becomes what you or what Tailor (another interesting member here) thinks it could be, then even I might consider aligning myself with it. I know there are reformers working hard to change things, some of them I know personally in the real world. I respect them. Unfortunately, because of the greater power/money/influence of hardline literalist Islamists, none of those reforms are taking a hold on Muslim minds, at least not as much as or as quickly as would be nice to see. But I realize Muslims are not homogenous, so I appreciate reformers wherever I find them, even if I don't always agree with them philosophically. There is philosophy and then there's politics. If reformist Muslims are secularists (as in separation of their version of religion from political life), I have no problem with their personal beliefs.

    You, as an atheist, are not even subscribing to a religion. You are trying to reclaim what you see as your cultural heritage without the baggage of religious dogma. Unfortunately, I don't think it's going to be an easy road for you. Muslims will be your greater rivals, and some who have not yet read Joseph Campbell's work on mythology and the human mind. Just, y'know, take it easy Smiley

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
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