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Theme Changer

 Topic: Top Ex-Muslim Myths

 (Read 48091 times)
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  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #390 - April 12, 2010, 05:04 PM
    Quote from: aslam786 on April 12, 2010, 04:59 PM
    Homosexuality has been around since recorded history. The societies which accepted it were not without any religion.


    Are you suggesting that God revealed religions that said Homosexuality was perfectly moral then later changed his mind and revealed religions that said homosexuality was very immoral?
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #391 - April 12, 2010, 05:09 PM
    Quote from: aslam786 on April 12, 2010, 04:59 PM
    But I admit, you have put me on a back foot


    It wasn't difficult, to be fair.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #392 - April 12, 2010, 05:15 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 12, 2010, 03:56 PM
    I don't believe in a moral code or teachings - what I mean by an evolved morality is that humans have come to agreements about actions that they consider right or wrong - such as murder, theft and adultery, but none of this is part of a fixed external objective code, only the result of the need for an ordered society.


    Religious codes aimed for an ordered society too. Anyway, murder and theft have been criticized by many religions. And adultery was not a big issue for many others. So I don't see any new modern morality evolving. Any moral teaching you consider having evolved, would most probably already be there in one or the other religion.

    Quote
    But since you are claiming to have an unchanging external divine code of morality given to you by God, I would like to know what they are - and how do you know man couldn't have come up with these without God?


    I don't think I have made any such claim in this thread.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #393 - April 12, 2010, 05:18 PM
    What about the morality systems that existed before religion? 
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #394 - April 12, 2010, 05:20 PM
    Quote from: aslam786 on April 12, 2010, 05:15 PM
    I don't think I have made any such claim in this thread.


    Then what are you claiming, Aslam - I don't understand?

    I thought you were claiming that man would not have any morality without religion - was that not your claim?

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #395 - April 12, 2010, 05:23 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 12, 2010, 05:04 PM
    Are you suggesting that God revealed religions that said Homosexuality was perfectly moral then later changed his mind and revealed religions that said homosexuality was very immoral?


    Many religions don't even make the claim to have been revealed by God. I have already said in my introductory thread that I have my own doubts about Islam.

    Keeping God out of the discussion, I would say that it was the religion (not any particular one) which guided humanity since the beginning. Yes, moral codes went on changing with changes in religions, but I don't think there is any moral teaching which is "modern".

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #396 - April 12, 2010, 05:26 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 12, 2010, 05:20 PM
    Then what are you claiming, Aslam - I don't understand?

    I thought you were claiming that man would not have any morality without religion - was that not your claim?


    I didn't claim unchanging external divine code of morality given by God. I only claimed that it was religion which has guided humanity; it might be man made, inspired, consensual or divine.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #397 - April 12, 2010, 05:27 PM
    Then in reality "religion" is just another word for morality, if it isn't divinely inspired.  Replace religion with morality and you have morality has guided people through out the ages. 
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #398 - April 12, 2010, 05:29 PM
    Quote from: deusvult on April 12, 2010, 05:18 PM
    What about the morality systems that existed before religion?  


    It was morality system which was named religion.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #399 - April 12, 2010, 05:34 PM
    In the sense that "religions" aren't divinely inspired then it is just a semantic difference between that and morality.  A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet. 
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #400 - April 12, 2010, 05:36 PM
    Quote from: aslam786 on April 12, 2010, 05:26 PM
    I didn't claim unchanging external divine code of morality given by God. I only claimed that it was religion which has guided humanity; it might be man made, inspired, consensual or divine.


    You are confusing me. If it's man-made then it's not from God. And what do you mean by consensual? And what is the difference between inspired and divine?

    And are you suggesting that God changes his mind about morality - like homosexuality for example.

    And what about verses suggesting the unchanging nature of God's laws/commands (i.e. La tabdeela li kalimat illah - there is no change to the words of God...)

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #401 - April 12, 2010, 05:38 PM
    Quote from: aslam786 on April 12, 2010, 05:29 PM
    It was morality system which was named religion.


    Are you claiming that all the gods and religions going back to early times were all genuine religions from Allah?

    All the Greek gods for example?

    This was moral guidance from Allah?
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #402 - April 12, 2010, 05:54 PM
    سُنَّةَ اللَّهِ فِي الَّذِينَ خَلَوْا مِنْ قَبْلُ وَلَنْ تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا

    Such was the way of Allah among those who lived aforetime: No change wilt thou find in the way of Allah. (33:62)
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #403 - April 12, 2010, 05:57 PM
     فَلَنْ تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا وَلَنْ تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللَّهِ تَحْوِيلًا

    "...For you shall not find any alteration in the course of Allah; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah." (35:43)
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #404 - April 12, 2010, 05:59 PM
    سُنَّةَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي قَدْ خَلَتْ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَلَنْ تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا

    "It is the law of Allah which hath taken course aforetime. Thou wilt not find for the law of Allah any change." (48:23)
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #405 - April 12, 2010, 06:55 PM
    Quote from: aslam786 on April 12, 2010, 03:29 PM
    I don't think there is any modern morality which has evolved. Moral codes are the gifts from religion. One can't claim that science is superior to religion unless ready to accept that morality is not required at all.

    Interesting.
    The problem of godless moral nihilism.
    If God doesn't exist then everything is permitted.

    But this is wrong. In fact it couldn't be more wrong.

    The truth is that if there is God then everything is permitted.


  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #406 - April 12, 2010, 07:27 PM
    Agreed.  That is why I find religious morality so hypocritical.  God handed us morality so you should be thankful for it, except for the times when "God" commands us to do things that seem completely immoral then we shouldn't question it because it came from God.  For instance
    on God and having sex with your female slaves ..

    Quote
    It may, superficially, appear distasteful to copulate with a woman who is not a man's legal wife, but once Shariat makes something lawful, we have to accept it as lawful, whether it appeals to our taste, or not; and whether we know its underlying wisdom or not. It is necessary for a Muslim to be acquainted with the laws of Shariat, but it is not necessary for him to delve into each law in order to find the underlying wisdom of these laws because knowledge of the wisdom of some of the laws may be beyond his puny comprehension. Allah Ta'ala has said in the Holy Quran: ?Wa maa ooteetum min al-ilm illaa qaleelan? which means, more or less, that, "You have been given a very small portion of knowledge?. Hence, if a person fails to comprehend the underlying wisdom of any law of Shariat, he cannot regard it as a fault of Shariat (Allah forbid), on the contrary, it is the fault of his own perception and lack of understanding, because no law of Shariat is contradictory to wisdom.


    http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/quran-hadith-prophet-muhammad/islam-permit-muslim-men-rape-slave-girls-1832

     What is sad is that this article implies that everyone knows that this is immoral but then tries to belittle them into thinking it is ok ( because you aren't smart enough to know what is right and wrong)

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #407 - April 12, 2010, 07:41 PM
    I think something that's interesting about Islamic morality is that it is claimed to only originate from Allah, correct?

    However, in the Qur'an, Allah seems to make a big deal out of not punishing people until they get a messenger to warn them first.

    But the thing is, if Allah decides what's right and wrong, then he has every right to destroy people who have never even been sent a messenger, doesn't he?
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #408 - April 12, 2010, 07:53 PM
    Well if he was truly all knowing he would be able to judge them based of off their respective moral compasses right here on earth just as he supposedly does with Muslims/Kuffars who fight against Muslims.  Maybe someone can correct me on the intracity of Muslim theology, but to me it always seemed pointless to reveal Sharia if those who have never heard of it will be judged according to their own respective moral compasses.  Why bother with the Sharia at all if the afterlife is for eternity yet a person's time on earth is very short?  Why not just judge them on their own morality and be done with it?  

    Christianity also suffers from this as well, except my old old faith that said that no one could get into heaven without accepting the principles espoused in the religion. 
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #409 - April 13, 2010, 12:54 PM
    Quote from: aslam786 on April 12, 2010, 02:34 PM
    On the other hand, science is much worse since it does not teach any morality, and how to relate to other men.


    Science is amoral, and is the quest of knowledge; morality is not its domain.
    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #410 - April 22, 2010, 07:14 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 12, 2010, 05:36 PM
    You are confusing me. If it's man-made then it's not from God. And what do you mean by consensual? And what is the difference between inspired and divine?


    Sorry for responding to your post so late. I am not claiming that religion has to be from God. I am open to the idea that it might be man made; it might even be consensual in a society since religion is a code of conduct and it can be agreed upon by a certain society.

    Divine necessarily brings in supernatural; inspired doesn't. The structure of the molecule of Benzene was discovered in an inspiring moment.

    Quote
    And are you suggesting that God changes his mind about morality - like homosexuality for example.


    I am not talking of God here at all. I am only suggesting that religion was a code of conduct notwithstanding its origin. The codes of conduct have varied and changed in the history. But it still has been the guidance for humans.

    Quote
    And what about verses suggesting the unchanging nature of God's laws/commands (i.e. La tabdeela li kalimat illah - there is no change to the words of God...)


    Let us please leave God out of this discussion.



  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #411 - April 22, 2010, 07:27 PM
    Quote from: aslam786 on April 22, 2010, 07:14 PM
    Let us please leave God out of this discussion.


    Huh? What do you mean?

    Do you believe the Qur'an is from God or not?

    And are you saying Qur'an can be ignored and discarded?
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #412 - April 22, 2010, 07:50 PM
    @aslam786

    Do you still hold the view that "Moral codes are the gifts from religion"?
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #413 - April 22, 2010, 07:57 PM
    Quote from: aslam786 on April 22, 2010, 07:14 PM
    I am not talking of God here at all. I am only suggesting that religion was a code of conduct notwithstanding its origin. The codes of conduct have varied and changed in the history. But it still has been the guidance for humans.


    I mean yea, but because it gets called "religion" doesn't make it any more special as a moral compass than say Star Trek The Next Generation.  Even worse Star Trek had 7 seasons worth of material and makes more better moral points than the Quran and the Bible ever will.  If the Quran is only a moral framework then we can safely discard it as a third rate attempt at morality.  




    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #414 - April 22, 2010, 08:25 PM
    Quote from: deusvult on April 22, 2010, 07:57 PM
    Even worse Star Trek had 7 seasons worth of material and makes more better moral points than the Quran and the Bible ever will.

    Truer words have never been spoken. Don't dismiss ST: Voyager though.

    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Who watches the watchers?)

    http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Who_Watches_the_Watchers
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #415 - April 22, 2010, 08:48 PM
    " The Thaw" was my favorite episode from Voyage.  
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #416 - April 22, 2010, 08:53 PM
    Quote from: deusvult on April 22, 2010, 08:48 PM
    " The Thaw" was my favorite episode from Voyage.  

    Excellent choice.
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