Top Ex-Muslim Myths

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- IslamMythology
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #90 - March 31, 2010, 07:19 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on March 31, 2010, 06:32 AM
If you are including me in the "you guys" category then you are totally missing my main point, which is that Mohammed could have pretty much any woman he wanted and yet his preferred sex partner was Aisha, right from the time she was nine years old.

Having sex with a child is a separate issue to contracting a formal marriage to solidify an alliance. It is the sexual acts that lead to the conclusion of paedophilia. What is so hard to understand about this?

Ok so you are saying anyone who has sex with a child (a prepubescent person) is a pedophile (someone who is sexually attracted to children). I don't believe that the conclusion is necessitated by the reasoning given. It very explicitly says that Muhammad consummated the marriage when Aisha was 9 or 10. Consummation is a ritual. This doesn't mean that Muhammad was marking off the days on his calendar until he gets to sleep with Aisha. There is at least one other reason for Muhammad having sex with his child wife other than being attracted to children - it was a matter of ritual to do so. And that is exactly what we are told. We are not given any other information that indicates Muhammad was sexually attracted to children.

If Muhammad was definitively a pedophile, give me the string of logic that makes that deduction sound. From all the logic I've heard so far, there is just no way this claim can be made. This is an assertion and no more.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #91 - March 31, 2010, 07:21 AM

Quote
Ok so you are saying anyone who has sex with a child (a prepubescent person) is a pedophile (someone who is sexually attracted to children). I don't believe that the conclusion is necessitated by the reasoning given. It very explicitly says that Muhammad consummated the marriage when Aisha was 9 or 10.

So waiting until she is 9 or 10 makes it ok to have sex with her? What the fuck man, you make me sick.

Edit: And of course, he did not have sex with her just once, he did it repeatedly, she was his favorite wife. So of course, there is no question at all that he was sexually attracted to her, who was a child, and therefore he was a pedophile.

I don't get it why you would try so hard to not accept this plain truth despite claiming to be an ex muslim.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #92 - March 31, 2010, 07:22 AM

Quote from: allat on March 31, 2010, 07:11 AM
Yes of course, but seriously, maybe some people will want to see the external source where it was originally published, to get a sense for the site, to put it in context, etc.

Yup, then it's the same one.

It is very difficult to provide the original version when the original version came through the mailing list - hence the pdf print out of the complete message.

Quote
Yup I own it, have read it cover to cover and highly recommend it to Muslims and to anyone interested in learning about Islamic history. For all his faults (and he has a few like we all do), I think Fatah is admirable for his dedication to reform in Islam.

He's considered an apostate by many, mostly by Muslims.

There will be a new book out in October 2010 called "The Jew Is Not My Enemy: Unveiling the Myths that Fuel Muslim Anti-Semitism" which should be interesting reading.

They call him an apostate because his position regarding gays and gay marriage, Israel and numerous things that don't actually sit close to the realm of theology; then again, look at who is doing the accusing - people from backwards cultures that think acid throwing, child marriage and cousin marriage are all just delightful past times that good Muslims should indulge in but apparently gays are bad. Considering the source of the outcry - there is a definite credibility gap.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #93 - March 31, 2010, 07:25 AM

Ok then:

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Prior to his utterance, a century after the fact, there is no mention or reference to the age of Aisha. Hisham bin Urwah lived and taught in Medina for 70 years, yet no one else—not even his famous pupil Malik ibn Anas---reported Aisha’s age. It is no coincidence that the growth of harems of the Abbasid caliphs mushroomed to hundreds of wives and concubines--many young girls-- at the time the sharia law based on bin Urwah's report, legalized child marriage.

Instead of relying on the words of bin Urwah as so many Islam-haters and Islamists do, I suggest we look at a few facts that prove that Aisha's age on the day of her wedding could not have been lower than 14 years of age.

Here's the tricky bit. He uses the words "facts" and "prove". What independent corroboration can he supply to back these words? Arabian culture had a strong oral tradition. Aisha's age could have been part of this among her descendants and may not have been documented earlier. Sure, some horny caliphs may have prompted the documentation, but that doesn't mean the tradition did not exist beforehand. Fact is, we don't know.

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The historian al-Tabari informs us in his treatise on Islamic history that the father of Aisha, Abu Bakr had four children and all them were born before the year 610AD, the year of the advent of Islam. If, as is generally accepted, Aisha became Muhammad's bride in the year 624AD, then she had to be at least 14 years of age, if not older on the day of her wedding.

Next tricky bit: we all know Tabari is not regarded as all that reliable. Muslims will disregard Tabari whenever it suits them. He carries no real weight.

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Other calculations based on historical events place Aisha as old as 20 when she was became a bride. Ibn Hisham, the historian, reports that Aisha accepted Islam quite some time before Umar (the second caliph). This means she must have been at least a young girl in the year 610. Assuming she was five years old when Abu Bakr and his family converted to islam, the information puts the age of Aisha at 20 or more at the time of her marriage with Muhammad was consummated in 624AD.

This would be the same Ibn Hisham who deliberately edited out parts of ibn Ishaq's biography of Mohammed because they made Mohammed look bad. How reliable is he as a source then?

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Furthermore, most Islamic historians agree that Asma, the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than her. It is also reported that Asma died in 683AD at the ripe age of 100. If this is true, then Asma would have been 31 years old at the time of Aisha's wedding with Muhammad in 624 and the bride would have been 21.

Bolded part applies.

Look, sure you can claim that the kid wasn't nine. Problem is that there are no really solid grounds for that claim. The claim that she was nine has as much chance of being true. Not only that, but because of the hierarchy in the texts you'll have a hard time convincing anyone that she wasn't.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #94 - March 31, 2010, 07:27 AM

Quote from: liberated on March 31, 2010, 07:10 AM
Are you reading anything i'm saying at all? here you go again,,

Sahih bukhari, Volume 7, Book 64, Number 280:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

My father died and left seven or nine girls and I married a matron. Allah's Apostle said to me, "O Jabir! Have you married?" I said, "Yes." He said, "A virgin or a matron?" I replied, "A matron." he said, "Why not a virgin, so that you might play with her and she with you, and you might amuse her and she amuse you." I said, " 'Abdullah (my father) died and left girls, and I dislike to marry a girl like them, so I married a lady (matron) so that she may look after them."

This isn't about pedophilia. This is Muhammad saying that it is more appropriate for a young man to marry a young woman, as they are both youthful, maybe even somewhat immature, and can enjoy one another. Jabir was 15 when the hijra took place. Muhammad was 53.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #95 - March 31, 2010, 07:28 AM

Quote from: liberated on March 31, 2010, 07:17 AM
You actually make a good point, but I don't buy the idea that if someone does something wrong which is considered the norm in his time, then he should not be held responsible/liable for his actions.

Definitely, he is responsible and should be held liable. The point though is that he is dead. He can't be brought to court, put in jail etc.

What needs to happen is that his infallible status needs to be completely removed INSIDE MUSLIM MINDS.

The clerics won't do it because it serves their interest to keep the myth of Mo as the perfect human being going.

So it's left up to us atheists, secularists, and reformers to try and hold Mo responsible, retroactively, by lowering his status in the eyes of as many Muslims as we can.

Quote from: liberated on March 31, 2010, 07:17 AM
There are a lot of wrong things which are culturally deemed appopriate in my culture. Hitting your children is one of them, but i would never hit any child if i had any. Nor would I force my sisters or nieces to wear hijab. Or marry a 15-16 year old girl. All of these are perfectly OK culturally, but my conscience tells me they are wrong, so I don't do them.

All those things, you feel because you live in this day and age, and even though you're in a heavily Muslim country, it is not Saudi Arabia, and also because you are getting exposed to different ways of thinking. Our sense of morality is always evolving (unless religious dogma has us brainwashed to the point that we resist that evolution of thoughts).

Quote from: liberated on March 31, 2010, 07:17 AM
If a 20 year old is able to see the wrong in things that are considered perfectly normal in his culture, then why should a 60 year old be exempt from not seeing the wrong in his actions in his culture?

Even in nazi germany people allowed jews to hide in their houses despite it being in the culture to kill them all.

Well, because Mohammed WAS a pedophile. He wanted to have Aisha as his wife. Whether she was 9, 10 or 14 when he had sex with her, it doesn't matter. By today's standards, he was a pedophile.

However, this only goes against him (personally, not against his tribe) as long as he is revered as the perfect human being *for all time* to follow and imitate.

We can't bring Mo back from the past and put him on trial. What we CAN do is break his idolization in popular Muslim culture (and thus in Muslim minds, eventually).

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #96 - March 31, 2010, 07:31 AM

Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 07:19 AM
Ok so you are saying anyone who has sex with a child (a prepubescent person) is a pedophile (someone who is sexually attracted to children). I don't believe that the conclusion is necessitated by the reasoning given. It very explicitly says that Muhammad consummated the marriage when Aisha was 9 or 10. Consummation is a ritual. This doesn't mean that Muhammad was marking off the days on his calendar until he gets to sleep with Aisha. There is at least one other reason for Muhammad having sex with his child wife other than being attracted to children - it was a matter of ritual to do so. And that is exactly what we are told. We are not given any other information that indicates Muhammad was sexually attracted to children.

If Muhammad was definitively a pedophile, give me the string of logic that makes that deduction sound. From all the logic I've heard so far, there is just no way this claim can be made. This is an assertion and no more.

Ay caramba! Allah grant me patience.

Look, I've said it several times already. Out of all his wives, Aisha was his favourite to jump in the sack with. This is not a ritual. It is a personal choice.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #97 - March 31, 2010, 07:32 AM

All of the people claiming that ayesha's hadiths are not valid, also forget a major point. The verse 65:4 specifically sanctions sex with children:

Quote
And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.

In the presence of this there is more evidence to believe that ayesha was 9, than there is to believe that she wasn't.

Also, i don't think the abbasiyad kings would need any sort of sanctioning to have sex with children or whoever they wanted to. They were in power. Who could stand up to a king?
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #98 - March 31, 2010, 07:33 AM

.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #99 - March 31, 2010, 07:35 AM

65:4 is a good point, actually. You have the Quran itself sanctioning sex with pre-pubescent girls.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #100 - March 31, 2010, 07:36 AM

IslamMytholog,

If you are a reasonable Muslim then I would like to debate with you on a single issue of my choice from Islam.

Would you accept my challange?
We can agree upon ground rules before starting the debate.
Of course, my assumption is that you have atleast some college education, at least fairly read, apply logic and are a fair/just person, and most importantly love the truth and uphold it.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #101 - March 31, 2010, 07:39 AM

Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 07:33 AM
When Muhammad began to spend more time with Aisha was later on. By then she was older. I believe he enjoyed her yes, as a young woman, not as a child.

Dude, she started to live with him after they had sex, which means of course he continued to have sex with her. And what evidence do you really have to say that she became his favorite wife later when she was older, and not while living with him?

Btw, she only stayed with him for 9 years, so even if she was 11/12 by the time she became his favorite wife, she was still a damn child.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #102 - March 31, 2010, 07:42 AM

By the way, even if it was a ritual there is no way I would get hard for a 9 year old child who played with dolls. Even if i never had access to internet, had never been out of pakistan, etc. Never. Getting hard for a 9 year old child shows that you had sexual feelings for her.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #103 - March 31, 2010, 07:45 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on March 31, 2010, 07:35 AM
65:4 is a good point, actually. You have the Quran itself sanctioning sex with pre-pubescent girls.

Where does it state that? The verse is relating to whether a women is pregnant based on whether the individual has a period for three months or not - which goes back to the issue regarding divorce.

http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/noframes/ch65.html

As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months. As for those who do not menstruate, and discover that they are pregnant, their interim ends upon giving birth. Anyone who reverences GOD, He makes everything easy for him.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #104 - March 31, 2010, 07:48 AM

Quote from: abdulRahman on March 31, 2010, 07:36 AM
IslamMytholog,

If you are a reasonable Muslim then I would like to debate with you on a single issue of my choice from Islam.

Would you accept my challange?
We can agree upon ground rules before starting the debate.
Of course, my assumption is that you have atleast some college education, at least fairly read, apply logic and are a fair/just person, and most importantly love the truth and uphold it.

Abdul Rahman

Abdul Rahman and IslamMythology. It's up to you if you wish to debate each other. There is an area on the forum where you can have a one on one, but for the sake of courtesy, please introduce yourself in the intro section of the forum. Thank You.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #105 - March 31, 2010, 07:48 AM

Quote from: liberated on March 31, 2010, 07:42 AM
By the way, even if it was a ritual there is no way I would get hard for a 9 year old child who played with dolls. Even if i never had access to internet, had never been out of pakistan, etc. Never. Getting hard for a 9 year old child shows that you had sexual feelings for her.

Good to know!

But this is my point: Yes it was a tribal custom, and yes Mo was a pedophile (as defined by the word: an adult who has sex with a child). But the concept that it's wrong for an adult to have sex with a child didn't develop in human consciousness until later.

Again, I'll reiterate, Mo was a pedo, and he was a product of his time. Accepting one of those statements doesn't automatically reduce the significance of the other.

The problem is that Mo should not be seen by anyone as a role model, as the perfect example of a man. His flaws should be acknowledged by Muslims, that's the only way they can stop getting harassed over it. Once they acknowledge that he had character flaws, they can move on to redesigning their religion more humanely and more relevantly to present day realities.

Our ancestors did lots of things we don't do today. There's nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade. That's how human cultures evolve, by admitting the mistakes of those who have gone before and changing our ways.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #106 - March 31, 2010, 07:49 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on March 31, 2010, 07:45 AM
Where does it state that? The verse is relating to whether a women is pregnant based on whether the individual has a period for three months or not - which goes back to the issue regarding divorce.

http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/noframes/ch65.html

As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months. As for those who do not menstruate, and discover that they are pregnant, their interim ends upon giving birth. Anyone who reverences GOD, He makes everything easy for him.

Eh? The Submitters? We know how much cred they have. In any case that is one of many varying translations you have there.

I'll have to wait for someone fluent in Quranic Arabic to confirm this, but IIRC recall the original makes it clear that it is referring to girls who have not yet begun to menstruate.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #107 - March 31, 2010, 07:52 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on March 31, 2010, 07:45 AM
Where does it state that? The verse is relating to whether a women is pregnant based on whether the individual has a period for three months or not - which goes back to the issue regarding divorce.

http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/noframes/ch65.html

As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months. As for those who do not menstruate, and discover that they are pregnant, their interim ends upon giving birth. Anyone who reverences GOD, He makes everything easy for him.

It is talking about those who have not had periods YET. Please do not rely on apologist english translations of this.. i've checked multiple urdu translations as well as tafsirs and they all agree that this allows/sanctions marriage with children.

P.S if any arabic speakers could shed some light on this, that'd be helpful too
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #108 - March 31, 2010, 07:55 AM

Urdu translations of this verse universally say 'those who haven't menstruated YET', its only some of the english ones that have removed the 'yet'
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #109 - March 31, 2010, 07:55 AM

To put Liberated's point into perspective: among traditional Islamic scholars 65:4 has been used to justify child marriage, and presumably those guys know their Quran and tafseer.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #110 - March 31, 2010, 08:07 AM

Quote from: allat on March 31, 2010, 07:48 AM
Again, I'll reiterate, Mo was a pedo, and he was a product of his time. Accepting one of those statements doesn't automatically reduce the significance of the other.

I agree with you allat . And as long as both statements are accepted equally, I have no problem. But when people say that because it was a cultural tradition it somehow means he was just maintaining a tradition and didn't have any feelings for the child, that's what I disagree with.

I know personally that I don't have any feelings for children whatsoever. When they start to develop some tits.. ok, I check them out, but before that I feel nothing whatsoever (edit: in fact i feel sick by the thought of anything sexual with them). So I know that if someone had sex with a 9 year old who has no female characteristics at all.. then he was a pedo, cultural traditions or not.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #111 - March 31, 2010, 08:40 AM

Quote from: liberated on March 31, 2010, 07:52 AM
It is talking about those who have not had periods YET. Please do not rely on apologist english translations of this.. i've checked multiple urdu translations as well as tafsirs and they all agree that this allows/sanctions marriage with children.

P.S if any arabic speakers could shed some light on this, that'd be helpful too

And why do urdu translations hold more 'credence'? cultural bias on your part?

http://arthursclassicnovels.com/koran/koran-asad10.html

It is about divorce and remarriage and nothing to do with marrying off children. All it tells me regarding the urdu exegesis is the fact that the Indian subcontinent is filled to the brim with perverted old men who want to marry children rather than it being the 'definite final say' on the matter.

You've taken one ayah out of a surah which provides the context. If you're going to disprove Islam, do it with some intellectual honest. There is a whole treasure trove from Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari that you can easily pick stuff off let alone the writings of Imam Al Ghazali which Muslims place on a pedestal as so far as blind adherence with no questioning.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #112 - March 31, 2010, 08:47 AM

Quote from: liberated on March 31, 2010, 08:07 AM
I agree with you allat . And as long as both statements are accepted equally, I have no problem. But when people say that because it was a cultural tradition it somehow means he was just maintaining a tradition and didn't have any feelings for the child, that's what I disagree with.

I know personally that I don't have any feelings for children whatsoever. When they start to develop some tits.. ok, I check them out, but before that I feel nothing whatsoever (edit: in fact i feel sick by the thought of anything sexual with them). So I know that if someone had sex with a 9 year old who has no female characteristics at all.. then he was a pedo, cultural traditions or not.

So you would check out my niece who is only 9, but has breasts and started her periods? Because she is still a child to me.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #113 - March 31, 2010, 08:57 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on March 31, 2010, 08:40 AM
And why do urdu translations hold more 'credence'? cultural bias on your part?

I thought it should be obvious - the target audience for urdu translations is people who are already muslims, therefore it doesn't need to be liberalized or softened, they already accept the quran to be word of god.

Whereas the target audience of english translations to a large extent non-muslims to whom dawah needs to be done and therefore the quran has to be made as acceptable to westerners as possible.

Its the same way that al jazeera's english programs are quite liberal, while its arabic website posts anti evolution stuff.

When someone translates from arabic to urdu, he has the least leverage or reason to liberalize or soften the translation, and more reasons to put it just the way it is.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #114 - March 31, 2010, 08:58 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on March 31, 2010, 08:47 AM
So you would check out my niece who is only 9, but has breasts and started her periods? Because she is still a child to me.

Probably not, i was thinking more around 14-15 really. Obviously you have to be tall etc as well.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #115 - March 31, 2010, 08:59 AM

Quote from: liberated on March 31, 2010, 08:58 AM
Probably not, i was thinking more around 14-15 really. Obviously you have to be tall etc as well. A 4 feet person is still a child to me.

She is 5'2"........does that make it more ok for you? (and yes, that's tall for a girl her age, but she is still just 9)

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #116 - March 31, 2010, 09:11 AM

Berbs, to someone who doesn't know her how old does she look?

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #117 - March 31, 2010, 09:15 AM

Maybe 11 - 12 at a stretch 13 , but she's only 9.

Just all this talk of breasts, pubes and blood as some kind of indicator of being ready pisses me off, because that shit happens really young on some girls, doesn't make the mentally or physically ready to have their budding boobies ogled by someone who thinks that's a sign of maturity.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #118 - March 31, 2010, 09:18 AM

Yeah sure. The thing I was getting at was Liberated saying he starts checking them out when they show secondary sexual characteristics. Bad news for ya: that's perfectly normal male behaviour. Usually though anything more than a first glance will be enough to clarify that she is a kid and most blokes will respect that.

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Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #119 - March 31, 2010, 09:20 AM

It's the ones who won't respect that, that worry me.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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