Top Ex-Muslim Myths

Previous page 1 2 34 5 ... 14 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
- allat
- Euphoria
- Administrator
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #60 - March 31, 2010, 05:32 AM

Quote from: liberated on March 31, 2010, 05:14 AM
Interesting.... One thing which does worry me though, is that did those religions also use to have as strong censorship rules as islam does? I.e killing all who oppose it, indoctrinating their kids so deeply into it, etc..

Some did, sure. Look up Medieval Christianity in Europe. Jews were often violently hated and discriminated against, women burned as witches for breaking the slightest social taboos, and no you couldn't just apostate and continue living the way you can now. Sound familiar, eh?

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
- IslamMythology
- Member
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #61 - March 31, 2010, 05:35 AM

.
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #62 - March 31, 2010, 05:42 AM

On the issue of reformers and liberal minded ones; unfortunately many of them I know would love nothing more than set up a network of liberal minded mosques but the reality is that it is difficult to get the funding, the government tends to be more concerned with working along side organisations that are hard line literalists with links back to Saudi Arabia. The British government keeps talking about a 'British Islam' and yet no one I talk to knows what the hell that actually is - what is a 'British Islam'? There is a tendency in the political circles to do a lot of talking but there is very little traction when it comes to turning that talking into real policies.

In reply to IslamMythology and A'Isha, there is plenty of evidence to prove that she did not marry Muhammad until much later but there are Muslims who would sooner defend Sahih Bukhari and Muslim than come out and admit that these hadith collections have major historical inaccuracies. Tarek Fatah not too long ago already showed the historical inaccuracies, here is the link to the article I printed to a PDF:

http://www.adrive.com/public/61085af06e6e8eb60d600cf83f77bfa022f638a1cf7afb9b614e5b82c13dacd1.html

Muslims it seems would sooner perpetuate a lie than admit that their hadith collections are riddled with factual inaccuracies. Why? because as soon as you start questioning the validity of so many hadiths then the whole edifice of Shariah comes crashing down. Its like watching a game of jinga with each person scared that if they pull the wrong brick the whole tower will come crashing down. Would sooner have a belief system based on lies than having the guts that maybe most of what Muslims believe isn't historically accurate, that the cult of personally developed by Muslims needs rejecting.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- IslamMythology
- Member
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #63 - March 31, 2010, 05:46 AM

.
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #64 - March 31, 2010, 05:52 AM

Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 05:35 AM
- 1/2 Aisha was 'married' at six, which is basically like an engagement. The consummation happened at 9 or 10.

I know. That's wot oi sed.

Quote
- 3 Right, Muhammad had plenty of access to women. He needs the 9 year old for sex?

Again, you are making my point for me. I agree he did not need her for sex. I am saying he wanted her for sex. There is a difference. IOW, he doesn't even have the flimsy excuse of "needing her for sex".

Quote
And it is the daughter of his best friend to boot? And you know we have a lot of weird ahadith in Islam, but we never see a hadith where Aisha complains that she was abused by Muhammad, or raped, or anything like that. Not even the Shia, who have a vested interest in destroying Aisha, give us a hadith about her unhappiness. By all accounts, as far as we know, she loved Muhammad very much. You know Muhammad threatened to divorce her at one time. Is that usual for a pedophile?

Ok, but would any hadith claiming Mohammed's actions were dishonourable have made it into any recognised collection? You are aware that such a hadith would be effectively heresy? It would have been dangerous for Aisha to even suggest such a thing. Also, her social standing was reliant on Mohammed's status.

I am well aware of the divorce threat. It is precisely the sort of thing that someone full of his own sense of power would do, and it wasn't just directed against Aisha. He threatened all of his wives at once.

As for "is that usual for a paedophile" yes, it is actually quite normal for paedophiles to rely on fear and coercion. It is one of their standard tactics.

Quote
If Muhammad is a pedophile, and he has this power of authority as Prophet as you say (which is not how I believe things worked but lets take your view), then why doesn't he start 'boinking' her at 6 years old? 6 years old is like the prime of childhood. At 7, and 8, and 9, and 10... at 10 the girl is on her way to being a young woman. And I have a bunch of kids, I've seen this up close. Was he a choosy pedophile that liked them right at the end of childhood? And you know it's funny, if Muhammad is a pedophile, why doesn't he ever go after any other kids? I mean Aisha isn't a child within a few years, so why didn't he marry another child? Maybe at 14 she still looked like she was 9 and that kept him turned on? Come on, can't you see there is something else going on here?

There is another explanation: a six year old is just physically too small to fuck. With a nine year old he might just get away with it. IOW, it looks very much as if he screwed her as soon as he could.

As for why no others, he certainly seems to have been fixated on her. Perhaps that is the only explanation needed.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- IslamMythology
- Member
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #65 - March 31, 2010, 05:53 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on March 31, 2010, 05:42 AM
On the issue of reformers and liberal minded ones; unfortunately many of them I know would love nothing more than set up a network of liberal minded mosques but the reality is that it is difficult to get the funding, the government tends to be more concerned with working along side organisations that are hard line literalists with links back to Saudi Arabia. The British government keeps talking about a 'British Islam' and yet no one I talk to knows what the hell that actually is - what is a 'British Islam'? There is a tendency in the political circles to do a lot of talking but there is very little traction when it comes to turning that talking into real policies.

In reply to IslamMythology and A'Isha, there is plenty of evidence to prove that she did not marry Muhammad until much later but there are Muslims who would sooner defend Sahih Bukhari and Muslim than come out and admit that these hadith collections have major historical inaccuracies. Tarek Fatah not too long ago already showed the historical inaccuracies, here is the link to the article I printed to a PDF:

http://www.adrive.com/public/61085af06e6e8eb60d600cf83f77bfa022f638a1cf7afb9b614e5b82c13dacd1.html

Muslims it seems would sooner perpetuate a lie than admit that their hadith collections are riddled with factual inaccuracies. Why? because as soon as you start questioning the validity of so many hadiths then the whole edifice of Shariah comes crashing down. Its like watching a game of jinga with each person scared that if they pull the wrong brick the whole tower will come crashing down. Would sooner have a belief system based on lies than having the guts that maybe most of what Muslims believe isn't historically accurate, that the cult of personally developed by Muslims needs rejecting.

You're right again, there are some questionable historical reports in Tabari, etc. that seem to make Aisha older at the time of marriage than what is reported in Bukhari. I guess someone could still make the argument that Muhammad was after young girls, if Aisha turned out to be 14 and not 9 at the time of marriage. I really don't think in either case that Muhammad was after children, I mean there is nothing to indicate that. There is everything to indicate that there was a tradition in place that married girls off young. There is everything to indicate other motives. Muhammad married Fatima off pretty young, perhaps as young as 9, and guess who wanted to marry her? Both Abu Bakr and Umar! And if you look at the Companions they are all marrying each other's sons and daughters. Something is going here with all this intermarrying don't you think?!
- allat
- Euphoria
- Administrator
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #66 - March 31, 2010, 05:54 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on March 31, 2010, 05:42 AM
On the issue of reformers and liberal minded ones; unfortunately many of them I know would love nothing more than set up a network of liberal minded mosques but the reality is that it is difficult to get the funding, the government tends to be more concerned with working along side organisations that are hard line literalists with links back to Saudi Arabia. The British government keeps talking about a 'British Islam' and yet no one I talk to knows what the hell that actually is - what is a 'British Islam'? There is a tendency in the political circles to do a lot of talking but there is very little traction when it comes to turning that talking into real policies.

Exactly my point that because of the greater power/money/influence of hardline literalist Islamists, none of those reforms are taking a hold on Muslim minds, at least not as much as or as quickly as would be nice to see.

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
- IslamMythology
- Member
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #67 - March 31, 2010, 05:57 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on March 31, 2010, 05:52 AM
I know. That's wot oi sed.

Again, you are making my point for me. I agree he did not need her for sex. I am saying he wanted her for sex. There is a difference. IOW, he doesn't even have the flimsy excuse of "needing her for sex".

Ok, but would any hadith claiming Mohammed's actions were dishonourable have made it into any recognised collection? You are aware that such a hadith would be effectively heresy? It would have been dangerous for Aisha to even suggest such a thing. Also, her social standing was reliant on Mohammed's status.

I am well aware of the divorce threat. It is precisely the sort of thing that someone full of his own sense of power would do, and it wasn't just directed against Aisha. He threatened all of his wives at once.

As for "is that usual for a paedophile" yes, it is actually quite normal for paedophiles to rely on fear and coercion. It is one of their standard tactics.

There is another explanation: a six year old is just physically too small to fuck. With a nine year old he might just get away with it. IOW, it looks very much as if he screwed her as soon as he could.

As for why no others, he certainly seems to have been fixated on her. Perhaps that is the only explanation needed.

Ok tell me this, is it definitive that Muhammad WAS a pedophile? Is there just absolutely no other way to understand this event?
- awais
- Ex-Muslim
- mulhid taqwa
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #68 - March 31, 2010, 06:01 AM

Welcome to the forum IM, wa alaykum salam .

I haven't the time to read all the replies (I have to run out the house to pick up my sis), but I just wanted to reply to the point that "Muhammad's marriage to Aisha was arranged".

Quote from: Sahih Bukhari 7:62:18
Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

Ur pic is the Ummayad Mosque in Dimashq eh? Any significance behind it? La'anat Allah alay Muawiyah and Yazid

I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #69 - March 31, 2010, 06:03 AM

Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 05:57 AM
Ok tell me this, is it definitive that Muhammad WAS a pedophile? Is there just absolutely no other way to understand this event?

I suppose it depends how desperate you are to whitewash it. If a bloke who can have any woman he wants chooses to have sex with a nine year old girl then I think there are extremely good grounds for saying he was sexually attracted to her.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- liberated
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #70 - March 31, 2010, 06:10 AM

Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 05:57 AM
Ok tell me this, is it definitive that Muhammad WAS a pedophile? Is there just absolutely no other way to understand this event?

Pretty much not, no. Esp. in the presence of hadiths like these:

Sahih Bukhari 9.140
Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #71 - March 31, 2010, 06:12 AM

Quote from: allat on March 31, 2010, 05:54 AM
Exactly my point that because of the greater power/money/influence of hardline literalist Islamists, none of those reforms are taking a hold on Muslim minds, at least not as much as or as quickly as would be nice to see.

Unfortunately many of those Muslims come from backwards cultures and education wise are also very simple - they want nice simple solutions with no work on their part in way of reflection etc; if I do xyz then I can get 70 virgins, a new oven, a big glass of wine and much epic lulz for all concerned. They're adults who wish to indulge in the sort of theology that keep children satisfied. The self help book for those who want help but don't want to do it themselves. Where their arguments for Islam is based on, "well, this is what we've always done" - the lights are on but no one is at home. I only need to read many stories on this website alone to see the type of Islam being practiced by many here and their families which re-enforce what I've stated.

Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 05:53 AM
You're right again, there are some questionable historical reports in Tabari, etc. that seem to make Aisha older at the time of marriage than what is reported in Bukhari. I guess someone could still make the argument that Muhammad was after young girls, if Aisha turned out to be 14 and not 9 at the time of marriage. I really don't think in either case that Muhammad was after children, I mean there is nothing to indicate that. There is everything to indicate that there was a tradition in place that married girls off young. There is everything to indicate other motives. Muhammad married Fatima off pretty young, perhaps as young as 9, and guess who wanted to marry her? Both Abu Bakr and Umar! And if you look at the Companions they are all marrying each other's sons and daughters. Something is going here with all this intermarrying don't you think?!

Unfortunately we see stories being made up around the time when the dynasties and hareems were being setup. Obviously you can't add things to the Qur'an, there are far too many who know it already so why not create an extra cannon called 'hadiths' that random stuff can be added when convenient. Isn't it interesting how something narrated by A'isha suddenly appears in a book 250-300 years after Muhammad's death during the Abbasid who also happen to like young girls in their hareems? doesn't it all seem rather convenient that these narrations popped up out of no where? Then there is the issue of Ibn Ishaq where is writing are almost direct lifts out of the gospel as so far as attempting to create links between Muhammad and the prophets of old through an elaborate lineage and fantastical stories like Muhammad was born already circumcised, that his heart was cleaned in zamzam water etc. all created to control the image of Muhammad as to fulfil what the powers that be wanted at the time. He who controls the image of Muhammad controls Islam and he who controls Islam controls the masses.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- IslamMythology
- Member
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #72 - March 31, 2010, 06:13 AM

Quote from: awais on March 31, 2010, 06:01 AM
Welcome to the forum IM, wa alaykum salam .

I haven't the time to read all the replies (I have to run out the house to pick up my sis), but I just wanted to reply to the point that "Muhammad's marriage to Aisha was arranged".

Ur pic is the Ummayad Mosque in Dimashq eh? Any significance behind it? La'anat Allah alay Muawiyah and Yazid

ty for the hadith that is the one I was referring to.

I just like how the mosque looks, it isn't in praise of Yazid or anything. I take it from your dua that you don't like Yazid very much lol. I'm not sure how to judge that one. I mean if Hussein had been in power and Yazid was growing a movement to take power, what would Hussein do?
- IslamMythology
- Member
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #73 - March 31, 2010, 06:25 AM

Quote from: liberated on March 31, 2010, 06:10 AM
Pretty much not, no. Esp. in the presence of hadiths like these:

Sahih Bukhari 9.140
Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.

So what I am understanding from you guys is that:

1. Muhammad married a child, thus he is a pedophile.

and

2. Muhammad pre-meditated upon the idea of marrying Aisha, thus he is a pedophile.

So your claims are:
(1) every one who marries a child is a pedophile
and
(2) everyone who pre-meditates marrying a child is a pedophile.

My problem with that is first off the reasoning does not necessitate the conclusion. I mean there are a myriad of reasons, especially in the case of Muhammad, that one might end up marrying a child. And certainly if you plan to marry a child, "plan" being the operative word here, you will be pre-meditating upon the event. These pieces of reasoning are not sound.

And how can you guys deduce "more likely than not he is a pedo" while he doesnt exhibit any other pedo behavior? On the other hand, when I offer a theory of there being a pre-existing Arab tradition, we DO see other examples of this tradition. When I offer a theory regarding Muhammad wanting to create bonds, Muhammad DOES offer us many examples of where he is attempting to solidify the bonds between his followers through marriages. So why wouldn't these theories be "more likely than not" while they have more to back them up than the pedophile theory does? Do you see what I mean?
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #74 - March 31, 2010, 06:32 AM

Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 06:25 AM
So what I am understanding from you guys is that:

1. Muhammad married a child, thus he is a pedophile.

and

2. Muhammad pre-meditated upon the idea of marrying Aisha, thus he is a pedophile.

If you are including me in the "you guys" category then you are totally missing my main point, which is that Mohammed could have pretty much any woman he wanted and yet his preferred sex partner was Aisha, right from the time she was nine years old.

Having sex with a child is a separate issue to contracting a formal marriage to solidify an alliance. It is the sexual acts that lead to the conclusion of paedophilia. What is so hard to understand about this?

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #75 - March 31, 2010, 06:37 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on March 31, 2010, 06:32 AM
If you are including me in the "you guys" category then you are totally missing my main point, which is that Mohammed could have pretty much any woman he wanted and yet his preferred sex partner was Aisha, right from the time she was nine years old.

Having sex with a child is a separate issue to contracting a formal marriage to solidify an alliance. It is the sexual acts that lead to the conclusion of paedophilia. What is so hard to understand about this?

But that assumes the report was historically correct. As I've sated in the past, for some strange reason Muslims seem to be more happy to hold onto a lie or a historical inaccuracy regarding Muhammad than admitting that we don't know very much about Muhammad as an individual - that what one knows is based on a chain of chinese whispers over 200-300 years and influenced by politics, tribal stories and so on. To admit ignorance as to the exact nature of Muhammad would undermine the absolute certainly they have in their mind as what a Muslim needs to do in their life to get 'epic orgasms'.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- allat
- Euphoria
- Administrator
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #76 - March 31, 2010, 06:39 AM

Wouldn't it be more intellectually appropriate to just say yes, Muhammad was a pedophile by today's standards *and* yes he was just doing what he was doing as a person living in those times and that place when these things were not as clearly defined legally as they are now?

It's like slavery. All the U.S.'s founding fathers, and many of the wealthier people in the west, owned slaves. Many slept with their slaves (including many of the revered forefathers of the U.S.). That was standard at that time.

Those who will say no, they were not slave holders are incorrect, and those who may say the forefathers were extraordinarily evil because they owned slaves are wrong because it may not have been considered wrong back then.

The problem comes in when Mohammed, who was, yes, a product of his time and space, becomes revered and idealized to the point where his character and his religion are not open to any scrutiny or criticism.

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #77 - March 31, 2010, 06:39 AM

There is no real reason to suppose Aisha was not nine.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #78 - March 31, 2010, 06:47 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on March 31, 2010, 06:39 AM
There is no real reason to suppose Aisha was not nine.

I provided a link - it is hardly my problem that you're too lazy to read it.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #79 - March 31, 2010, 06:53 AM

Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 01:26 AM
Warning: This exercise is only for the brave.

There is a great teaching in Islam that exhorts Muslims to constantly evaluate themselves, their intentions, their faith, and the truth of their words. This teaching is useful for Ex-Muslims as well.

Have you ever heard an Ex-Muslim say something that is a bit 'off' about Islam? Do you find yourself hearing this same thing again and again? If so, you might have found an Ex-Muslim myth!

Post your Ex-Muslim myths here!

Here are a few I came across recently:

‘Muhammad was a Pedophile.’

‘Muslims live a hopeless desperate life.’

‘Islam has little relevance beyond being a sort of curiosity or amusement.’

‘There is little value in the original impetus and story of Islam.’

‘Muhammad is a blood thirsty murderer as exhibited by the slaughter of Banu Qurayza’.

I would love to include 'Muhammad was possessed by a demon' but that is actually a Christian myth about Islam, that's a whole thread by itself lol.

Assalamu alaykum : )

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=9474.msg242456#msg242456
- allat
- Euphoria
- Administrator
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #80 - March 31, 2010, 06:56 AM

Though I do not agree with it 100% on some things, I thought that that Tarek Fatah article had some very interesting points. We have to read Tarek Fatah (and other such reformers) remembering that his main target audience are Muslims, not atheists, agnostics or heretics.

Here's an excerpt, a part that I found worthy of being considered, that isn't considered often enough by Muslim clerics and non Muslims alike:

Quote
How do people like Wafa Sultan or the Islamists claim to know for a fact that the age of Aisha was nine when her marriage to Muhammad was consummated? There are no birth records from the time and there is not a single piece of physical paper that can be traced back to seventh century Arabia that mentions the age of Aisha. In the absence of hard evidence, we have two choices:

1.We rely on medieval hearsay and gossip that has unfortunately seeped into Islamic literature, the Hadith and Sharia law, or;
2. We calculate the age of Aisha based on actual agreed upon indisputable chronology of events.

While the Islamists and Wafa Sultan rely on medieval gossip, I have chosen to make a rational estimate of Aisha's age based on acknowledged historical timelines.

Most medieval Islamic history books were written 200-300 years after the advent of Islam and it is true that all of them state emphatically that Aisha was only nine when she became Muhammad's bride. However, all of them rely on, and quote, one single individual as the source of this information. His name was Hishām ibn Urwah, a prominent narrator of sayings of the Prophet (the Hadith), who died in the year 756AD. He was Aisha's great-grand nephew, who first suggested that his great-grand aunt was only nine-years old on the day of her wedding, 125 years after the said event.

Prior to his utterance, a century after the fact, there is no mention or reference to the age of Aisha. Hisham bin Urwah lived and taught in Medina for 70 years, yet no one else—not even his famous pupil Malik ibn Anas---reported Aisha’s age. It is no coincidence that the growth of harems of the Abbasid caliphs mushroomed to hundreds of wives and concubines--many young girls-- at the time the sharia law based on bin Urwah's report, legalized child marriage.

Instead of relying on the words of bin Urwah as so many Islam-haters and Islamists do, I suggest we look at a few facts that prove that Aisha's age on the day of her wedding could not have been lower than 14 years of age.

The historian al-Tabari informs us in his treatise on Islamic history that the father of Aisha, Abu Bakr had four children and all them were born before the year 610AD, the year of the advent of Islam. If, as is generally accepted, Aisha became Muhammad's bride in the year 624AD, then she had to be at least 14 years of age, if not older on the day of her wedding.

Other calculations based on historical events place Aisha as old as 20 when she was became a bride. Ibn Hisham, the historian, reports that Aisha accepted Islam quite some time before Umar (the second caliph). This means she must have been at least a young girl in the year 610. Assuming she was five years old when Abu Bakr and his family converted to islam, the information puts the age of Aisha at 20 or more at the time of her marriage with Muhammad was consummated in 624AD.

Furthermore, most Islamic historians agree that Asma, the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than her. It is also reported that Asma died in 683AD at the ripe age of 100. If this is true, then Asma would have been 31 years old at the time of Aisha's wedding with Muhammad in 624 and the bride would have been 21.

source

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #81 - March 31, 2010, 06:56 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on March 31, 2010, 06:47 AM
I provided a link - it is hardly my problem that you're too lazy to read it.

Link me to the original online article. I'm not interested in having to download your version of it.

Also, unless it has specific evidence relating to Aisha's age then it doesn't matter what other historical inaccuracies it points out. There would still be no reason to assume Aisha was not nine.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #82 - March 31, 2010, 06:57 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on March 31, 2010, 06:56 AM
Link me to the original online article. I'm not interested in having to download your version of it.

Also, unless it has specific evidence relating to Aisha's age then it doesn't matter what other historical inaccuracies it points out. There would still be no reason to assume Aisha was not nine.

I provided a link to the PDF printed article; if you're too fucking lazy to read that then go take a high dive into a shallow rock pool.

Allat already has provided a direct link to the article in his post:

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=9473.msg242460#msg242460

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- allat
- Euphoria
- Administrator
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #83 - March 31, 2010, 06:59 AM

kaiwai, what is your attitude supposed to achieve?

Os, I put the link in my post above yours. Kaiwai, that's the same article, correct?

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #84 - March 31, 2010, 07:01 AM

Quote from: allat on March 31, 2010, 06:59 AM
kaiwai, what is your attitude supposed to achieve?

I get pissed off with people who want links, I provide a link and they're pissed off that they might have to download a pdf file.

Quote
Os, I put the link in my post above yours. Kaiwai, that's the same article, correct?

From the quick over view, it looks like the one; the one I had was based on it being circulated on the MCC mailing list.

Tarek Fatah also wrote this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Chasing-Mirage-Tragic-lllusion-Islamic/dp/0470841168

Which I am working my way through. Funny the number of Muslims who attack him whilst ignoring the Tarek Fatah is a practicing Muslim.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #85 - March 31, 2010, 07:03 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on March 31, 2010, 07:01 AM
I get pissed off with people who want links, I provide a link and they're pissed off that they might have to download a pdf file.

In case you missed it, I was asking for the original source.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #86 - March 31, 2010, 07:06 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on March 31, 2010, 07:03 AM
In case you missed it, I was asking for the original source.

That was the original source; unless you want the password to my actual email account which it came through I printed it out to a PDF because there wasn't the link to the website which hosted the article.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- liberated
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #87 - March 31, 2010, 07:10 AM

Quote from: IslamMythology on March 31, 2010, 06:25 AM
And how can you guys deduce "more likely than not he is a pedo" while he doesnt exhibit any other pedo behavior?

Are you reading anything i'm saying at all? here you go again,,

Sahih bukhari, Volume 7, Book 64, Number 280:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

My father died and left seven or nine girls and I married a matron. Allah's Apostle said to me, "O Jabir! Have you married?" I said, "Yes." He said, "A virgin or a matron?" I replied, "A matron." he said, "Why not a virgin, so that you might play with her and she with you, and you might amuse her and she amuse you." I said, " 'Abdullah (my father) died and left girls, and I dislike to marry a girl like them, so I married a lady (matron) so that she may look after them."
- allat
- Euphoria
- Administrator
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #88 - March 31, 2010, 07:11 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on March 31, 2010, 07:01 AM
I get pissed off with people who want links, I provide a link and they're pissed off that they might have to download a pdf file.

Yes of course, but seriously, maybe some people will want to see the external source where it was originally published, to get a sense for the site, to put it in context, etc.

Quote from: kaiwai on March 31, 2010, 07:01 AM
From the quick over view, it looks like the one; the one I had was based on it being circulated on the MCC mailing list.

Yup, then it's the same one.

Quote from: kaiwai on March 31, 2010, 07:01 AM
Tarek Fatah also wrote this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Chasing-Mirage-Tragic-lllusion-Islamic/dp/0470841168

Which I am working my way through. Funny the number of Muslims who attack him whilst ignoring the Tarek Fatah is a practicing Muslim.

Yup I own it, have read it cover to cover and highly recommend it to Muslims and to anyone interested in learning about Islamic history. For all his faults (and he has a few like we all do), I think Fatah is admirable for his dedication to reform in Islam.

He's considered an apostate by many, mostly by Muslims.

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
- liberated
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
Reply #89 - March 31, 2010, 07:17 AM

Quote from: allat on March 31, 2010, 06:39 AM
Wouldn't it be more intellectually appropriate to just say yes, Muhammad was a pedophile by today's standards *and* yes he was just doing what he was doing as a person living in those times and that place when these things were not as clearly defined legally as they are now?

It's like slavery. All the U.S.'s founding fathers, and many of the wealthier people in the west, owned slaves. Many slept with their slaves (including many of the revered forefathers of the U.S.). That was standard at that time.

Those who will say no, they were not slave holders are incorrect, and those who may say the forefathers were extraordinarily evil because they owned slaves are wrong because it may not have been considered wrong back then.

The problem comes in when Mohammed, who was, yes, a product of his time and space, becomes revered and idealized to the point where his character and his religion are not open to any scrutiny or criticism.

You actually make a good point, but I don't buy the idea that if someone does something wrong which is considered the norm in his time, then he should not be held responsible/liable for his actions.

There are a lot of wrong things which are culturally deemed appopriate in my culture. Hitting your children is one of them, but i would never hit any child if i had any. Nor would I force my sisters or nieces to wear hijab. Or marry a 15-16 year old girl. All of these are perfectly OK culturally, but my conscience tells me they are wrong, so I don't do them.

If a 20 year old is able to see the wrong in things that are considered perfectly normal in his culture, then why should a 60 year old be exempt from not seeing the wrong in his actions in his culture?

Even in nazi germany people allowed jews to hide in their houses despite it being in the culture to kill them all.
Previous page 1 2 34 5 ... 14 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »