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Theme Changer

 Topic: Top Ex-Muslim Myths

 (Read 48891 times)
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  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #120 - March 31, 2010, 09:28 AM

    Berbs, if someone has a child like face it has the same effect of making me not interested in her.. really. Its chicks like her:



    That I was talking about, that might cause me to take a 2nd look. And I think most guys here will agree to that. But most of us won't do anything beyond looking.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #121 - March 31, 2010, 09:28 AM

    Sure. Fortunately there aren't that many of them.

    Also age has a lot to do with it. Someone still in their teens will think it's normal to be checking out teenage girls and like totally wrong man to be checking out fifty year old women. Cheesy
    Depends on the woman of course, but personally................... whistling2

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #122 - March 31, 2010, 09:41 AM

    I thought it should be obvious - the target audience for urdu translations is people who are already muslims, therefore needs to be liberalized or softened, they already accept the quran to be word of god.

    Whereas the target audience of english translations  to a large extent non-muslims to whom dawah needs to be done and therefore the quran has to be made as acceptable to westerners as possible.

    Its the same way that al jazeera's english programs are quite liberal, while its arabic website posts anti evolution stuff.

    When someone translates from arabic to urdu, he has the least leverage or reason to liberalize or soften the translation, and more reasons to put it just the way it is.


    What I am using as a reference is Muhammad Asad; those who aren't interested in a liberalised/contextualised version of Islam are simply going to ignore it regardless of whether it is in urdu or English. They have a vested interest in the status quo of married children, acid throwing and cousin fucking - its not going to matter one iota given that they'll just cook up a new story, a new hadith or something else to justify their cultural norms.

    Those who are interested in a progressive approach to islam are already going out and obtaining Muhammad Asad writings, reading books by Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na`im and so on.  They keep to the status quo because they're happy with the status quo - you may not like it but until you put a rocket under their ass and get them to join 2010, its not going to change anything.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #123 - March 31, 2010, 09:45 AM

    Rather than liberalization, shouldn't we rather lay the naked facts out there for everyone to see so that those with any sense will start to gradually leave?

    I know that it helped me personally leave islam because mo had sex with a 9 year old. Without that it would've been slightly harder.

    And what we're discussing here is what actually happened, not what should be portrayed in order to make islam liberal.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #124 - March 31, 2010, 10:32 AM

    Rather than liberalization, shouldn't we rather lay the naked facts out there for everyone to see so that those with any sense will start to gradually leave?

    I know that it helped me personally leave islam because mo had sex with a 9 year old. Without that it would've been slightly harder.

    And what we're discussing here is what actually happened, not what should be portrayed in order to make islam liberal.


    If you were going to give the naked facts then you wouldn't end up with much; most of the stories developed over the centuries were at the request of particular dynasties to justify why they're in charge and hadiths being created to justify policies and so on. What you would end up having to tell Muslims is that there is little known about Muhammad, most of the hadiths were created for political expediency along with many of the stories (outside of the Qur'an) created as almost mirror copies of Christian stories to create a lineage between previous prophets and Muhammad. Asharites would find their ideology undermined because their whole system is based on adherence to tradition over using reason so what you would end up having is a re-emergence as a replacement Mutazillites with the underlying philosophy based on greeko-roman lineage which would move the interpretation further from the literal understanding through to focusing on the over arching principles.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #125 - March 31, 2010, 11:08 AM

    Where does it state that? The verse is relating to whether a women is pregnant based on whether the individual has a period for three months or not - which goes back to the issue regarding divorce.

    http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/noframes/ch65.html

    As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months. As for those who do not menstruate, and discover that they are pregnant, their interim ends upon giving birth. Anyone who reverences GOD, He makes everything easy for him.

    That's a terrible translation.

    This is what Ibn Kathir has to say on the matter

    Quote
    http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=65&tid=54223
    Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. [see 2:228] The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. This is the meaning of His saying;

    Why this verse was revealed:

    When the Ayah in Surat Al-Baqarah was revealed prescribing the `Iddah of divorce, some people in Al-Madinah said, `There are still some women whose `Iddah has not been mentioned in the Qur'an. There are the young, the old whose menstruation is discontinued, and the pregnant.' Later on, this Ayah was revealed,


    Here's another tafsir:

    Quote
    http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=65
    *13 They may not have menstruated as yet either because of young age, or delayed menstrual discharge as it happens in the case of some women, or because of no discharge at aII throughout life which, though rare, may also be the case. In any case, the waiting-period of such a woman is the same as of the woman, who has stopped menstruation, that is three months from the time divorce was pronounced.



    Here is Hassan's take on the verse:

    Quote
    OK to verse 4 of At-Talaq. To me the verse is clearly speaking about 3 special categories: Women who don't have their period because they are: 1. Too old 2. Too young. 3. Are pregnant.

    The words for the second group is: لم يمحضن which is the verb: "To Menstruate" and the negative particle meaning "Haven't/didn't/not..."

    So it literally means: "They haven't menstruated."

    I have a large selection of the classical tafseers at home and took a look in all of them for you. They all say it means those who have not started menstruating because they are too young. I also have a modern tafseer by As-Sabooni that gathers all the comments of the scholars. He also says it means girls who haven't started menstruating because of their youth.

    Of course I could be wrong and Shabbir Whatsisname could be right that it really does mean "women who haven't menstruated because of physiological defects" He and the handful of modernists may have unlocked the secret meaning of this verse that Scholars for 1400 years could not.

    But I have to admit it sounds extremely weak to me - to say the least! To say that it means those who can't for physiological reasons, makes no sense, since it says: "Those who haven't" (which implies they can) and it doesn't say; "Those who can't."  It would actually have made more sense to use the first group where it uses the verb "despaired" for those who can't (i.e. because they are too old or because of physiological reasons.)

    You also appear to suggest that it could just mean women in general who do have periods but who have just not had it yet. But that makes no sense since verse 1 to 3 has already dealt with women in general. Verse 4 is about special cases (Young, Old or Pregnant.)

    Of course you can make up your own mind.

    I hope that helps.

    Peace,

    Hassan.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8240.176


  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #126 - March 31, 2010, 11:12 AM

    I don't see why a dynasty would need to make up hadiths to justify what they do.  They weren't democratic leaders who could be impeached if the public didn't like them, they were dictators.

    Nor would there be any objection to child marriages in arabia of hundreds of years ago, people weren't as liberal as today back then as has been discussed earlier in this thread..

    My point about 65:4 remains, its much more likely to mean 'not mensturated YET' which is evidence for the fact that Mo sanctioned child marriages and quite likely had one himself.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #127 - March 31, 2010, 11:14 AM

    That's a bullshit translation.

    This is what Ibn Kathir has to say on the matter:
    Here's another tafsir:


    Here is Hassan's take on the verse:



    Thanks Smiley I was too lazy to dig that all up.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #128 - March 31, 2010, 11:16 AM

    I've got loads of stuff saved lol Tongue So it doesn't take long to dig them up.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #129 - March 31, 2010, 11:17 AM

    Yeah thanks Peru. That was pretty much how I remembered it but I cbf'd looking it up again.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #130 - March 31, 2010, 11:20 AM


    As long as Mo is elevated as insaan al-kamil, the perfect man for eternity, uswa hasana, the immutable height of perfection to whom all must aspire to emulate, then his conduct, child sex and all, have to be dealt with. Especially when the foundations of an evangelical religion rests on his shoulders. Especially when Muslims insist one moment that his life, ethics and conduct (like Islam itself) cannot be relativised, because it is all perfect, unimpeachable, changeless and ageless. Until the end of time, Mo is the shining beacon towards whom all Muslims, and the billions of infidels who shall one day be brought into Islam, must aspire to emulate.

    To the point that even criticising or doubting him is made an issue to the point of death.

    And that's saying nothing about the horrors of the Banu Qurayza massacre.

    (Like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, only worse)




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #131 - March 31, 2010, 11:22 AM

    I've got loads of stuff saved lol Tongue

    How come?
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #132 - March 31, 2010, 11:26 AM

    I agree with billy. If M. didn't have sex with a 9 year old, that would help muslims retain the 'perfect human being' idea. The only muslims interested in changing the story are the ones who are aware of the growing knowledge of child abuse/pedophelia and don't want muslims of future generations to doubt islam because of this. Therefore we should not be in favor of allowing them to change the story, esp. given the facts like 65:4, etc which show that their version of the story is more likely to not be true.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #133 - March 31, 2010, 11:26 AM

    Quote
    How come?

    Many reasons. I like to keep things at hand in case I need to look it up again (which happens very often). I also have a poor memory so saving it is useful. Plus when I finally come out to my parents I can overwhelm them, then I'd like to see my dad accusing me of little knowledge! He probably still will but at least then I can call him ignorant.

    Also I have plans to make a website one day with all my info there. I'm too busy atm to do that. Might do it after uni. I just got to figure out the logistics of how I'm going to do it as everything need to be easy to find through searches, categories and what not.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #134 - March 31, 2010, 11:32 AM


    (1) Islam and Mohammad's life cannot be relativised - it is perfection - the message for humanity for eternity, come, come to Islam, submit, before its too late, unlike everything else our book and prophet are perfection, they can never be look at in a relative manner.

    { when faced with issues about Mo's conduct and character }

    (2) Errm, well, it was all relative to the time, and ummm, you know, its all relative, ahem.

    Hmmmm....make your minds up guys.

    (here's another thing - if there exists a figure about whom you can be murdered, executed, intimidated, have death threats, be beaten up or maimed, simply for questioning his 'perfection', there is something seriously horrifically wrong that needs to be addressed - and that needs to be dislodged from the mentality of that mans adherents)

    You know, when people have something to hide, they generally tend to get hysterical, paranoid and violent. So, what is there to hide?


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #135 - March 31, 2010, 11:41 AM

    Good post billy Afro
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #136 - March 31, 2010, 11:45 AM

    .
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #137 - March 31, 2010, 11:48 AM

    So perhaps we should hold a poll on that before declaring that one dead. I mean you don't get to make everyone else's mind up for them.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #138 - March 31, 2010, 11:48 AM

    Quote
    So I think we have killed the 'Muhammad is a Pedophile' myth


    Saying that you think it has been done doesn't make it so.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #139 - March 31, 2010, 11:48 AM

    Quote
    Aisha was prepubescent and Muslims don't realize that arranged marriages right at about the edge of childhood was customary amongst the Muslims of Muhammad's time.

    It seems like no matter what is said everyone wants to hold on to the "all these people must be pedophiles theory" which I have already shown, when setup as a logic problem just doesn't pan out. I've actually had the opportunity to see some of these practices up close and I am telling you that there is much more going on that you realize. Many of you keep on returning to idea that it is sexually motivated but ignore every other motive. One word for you guys: Anthropology.

    So I think we have killed the 'Muhammad is a Pedophile' myth, that one is obviously not going anywhere. How about any of the other myths I posted?

    Having sex with under-aged girls is wrong in so many ways. Don't call him him a pedo then, I don't care. Whatever you call him, it doesn't change the fact that he had sex with a 9 year old girl and he made it legal for all times.

    You're not the only one who's seen these practices up close.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #140 - March 31, 2010, 11:49 AM

    I mean you don't get to make everyone else's mind up for them.


     Grin

    I personally am honoured that he made my mind up for me.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #141 - March 31, 2010, 11:50 AM

    So Muhammad essentially followed the same trends of Arab tribal society rather than change the practices which would make more sense for all people in this day and age. That kills off the whole 'Universal appeal for Mankind' of him.

    Next!

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #142 - March 31, 2010, 11:51 AM

    Quote from: billy
    I personally am honoured that he made my mind up for me.

    Reminds me of skynightblaze, Teh Great Refuterator!

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #143 - March 31, 2010, 11:51 AM

    .
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #144 - March 31, 2010, 11:53 AM

    I would include Muhammad's megalomaniac character for a Prophet as well (which to be fair is no different than the VERY objectionable antics of Musa, Ibrahim, Nuh, etc before him).

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #145 - March 31, 2010, 11:54 AM

    The rest of your myths are terrible.

    ‘Muslims live a hopeless desperate life.’
    Most of us don't feel that way. To each their own.

    ‘Islam has little relevance beyond being a sort of curiosity or amusement.’
    It doesn't have little relevance for most of us, we're still being effected by it negatively due to it's laws and attitudes on apostasy.

    ‘There is little value in the original impetus and story of Islam.’
    Depends what you mean by 'value'.

    I don't have any sources for Banu Qurayzai, I haven't looked it up enough so I'll stay out of that one.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #146 - March 31, 2010, 11:55 AM

    Reminds me of skynightblaze, Teh Great Refuterator!


    Until someone comes out with a cracker like this one, he reigns supreme:

    Remember skynightblaze is all knowing.


     Grin


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #147 - March 31, 2010, 12:04 PM

    IslamMythology

    Have you read Ali Dashti's book 'Bist O Seh Saal' (Twenty-Three Years) which maps and critically compares the 23 years of Muhammad's Prophetic era life from his first revelation till his death?

    If not, then I recommend you do.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/1018147/23-years-al-Dashti

    What better way to understand any religion than by understanding the man responsible for its emergence eh?

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #148 - March 31, 2010, 12:05 PM

    I'm a bit sceptical about that book. He mentioned that certain wives never got a turn but I've never heard that anywhere else, or seen a reference.
  • Re: Top Ex-Muslim Myths
     Reply #149 - March 31, 2010, 12:12 PM

    This person is quite clearly a troll, all the logic has been shown to him repeatedly and he goes all the way back to the same argument he started with.

    IM/Tut, I'm waiting for evidence that ayesha didnt became M's favorite wife until she was older. If she was his favorite while being a child, it means he had sexual feeelings for her, which means he was a ped.
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