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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Your position on prostitution is that we should....?
  • Ban it
  • Legalize it but keep procuring (pimping and brothels) illegal
  • Legalize both prostitution and procuring but with no regulation
  • Legalize it and regulate it

 Topic: Prostitution

 (Read 19426 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 3 45 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #90 - April 09, 2010, 02:38 AM

    there are two sides to the equation as well.  We have covered the supply side, prostitutes, but we haven't covered the demand side, janes and johns.  Janes and johns want decriminalization and regulation as well.  One, because going to a prostitute will no longer result in a criminal mark and there is a safety that  the prostitute is clean and remove the anxiety of going to the "bad" part of town and run the risk of getting robbed.

    Hmm. In general I think you will find that compared to their clients prostitutes are as paranoid if not more paranoid about STD's. It is common for clients to request unprotected sex and just as common for the request to be refused.

    Also, regulation would not necessarily reduce the risk of robbery. One could argue that it could just as well increase it, because if a prostitute is seen as no different to anyone else her word is going to be given more weight if the case goes to court. All things considered, I don't think robbery is as big a deal as you might think. Robbing your customers is a good way to go out of business.

    Oh and in case you didn't know, it is just as common for pros to work in the nice parts of town.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #91 - April 09, 2010, 02:44 AM

    Another point: it is probably as common for customers to rob prostitutes as the other way around. I've certainly known of cases where it has happened. Don't be too sure about your preconceptions.  Wink

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #92 - April 09, 2010, 02:50 AM

    I'm not making points for all prostitutes and all johns.  I am pointing out some problems that occur from the illegality.  I'm sure there are prostitutes that rob customers and well as customers that rob prostitutes, high class prostitutes and street corner ones, ones who love their work and others that hate it.  

    I'm saying though that though legalization and regulation ( even the voluntary kind that could come with decriminalization) there would be a foot for every shoe.  If someone wants to go to clean prostitute in a good environment with the certification from the Better Business Bureau that it is a reputable company they could , likewise prostitutes that would want to work in a clean environment could have a way to do so.  I'm sure there would still be johns who want to do it in dark alleys and prostitutes that want to work on street corners.  They should be allowed to do so as well.  It shouldn't be a one-size-fits-all approach like either you are a legal prostitute who is restricted to heavy regulation or illegal.  It shouldn't be so either/or.  Let the prostitutes pick how much they want to regulate themselves and let the john's demand the regulation they want, and a buyer will meet a supplier.  




    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #93 - April 09, 2010, 03:00 AM

    Ok, so what you are describing is basically the situation in Australian states that have decriminalised prostitution. Although the system isn't perfect, and I've pointed out a couple of the odd quirks, on balance it is definitely better than what preceded it. Of course there are still cases of illegal sex slavery and such, but they are prosecuted like Hell if found out.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Prostitution
     Reply #94 - October 09, 2015, 08:46 AM

    Option two is already UK law.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Prostitution
     Reply #95 - October 16, 2015, 02:45 PM

    You know at this point I say get rid of all ideas on morality on this subject. Prostitution has always been present and always will be. It's a fact and that's all that there is to it, morality be damned. Many women who end up int he sex industry have a difficult past, are coerced into it, have experienced abuse of some kind, OR have some kind of mental issues going on (i knew a girl who went through boughts of mania who did end up being an escort for a bit ). But even if the didn't (however small or big this percentage it) they don't cease to be humans once they engage in sex work. They have a right to their earnings, safety, and control over their bodies, just as we do. To take that away from them seems so incredibly spiteful and violent.

  • Prostitution
     Reply #96 - October 16, 2015, 03:03 PM

    You know at this point I say get rid of all ideas on morality on this subject. Prostitution has always been present and always will be. It's a fact and that's all that there is to it, morality be damned.

    Hip hip hooray.

    Morality can do one. Let personal choice rule. And come down hard on coercion.
  • Prostitution
     Reply #97 - October 17, 2015, 12:10 PM

    Would the same go for porn stars?  Like the ones who talk about how great it is when they are being interviewed? 


    You know there was this one girl who got very famous recently, belle knox, who kept on saying how empowering it was etc etc. She was college student who also did porn and there was this whole thing about it. Turns out she was a victim of sexual assault in high school and i believe she was a cutter too.

    I would like for women to feel empowered with sex work but I think to see it that way is not going to be fair to the entire picture.

    When we buy something, we feel a sense of ownership over it. If i buy a new dress, i own it and I can do with it as I please. When a woman sells herself, it creates a power imbalance. The person who pays her money has "bought" her for however brief period of time and so feels a sense of ownership over her. There is a huge imbalance between the sex worker and the client. Even if she makes tons of money per night, it is the client who is in control.

    I don't really attach morality to prostitution. It's always going to exist. But I think it severely disadvantages women in general. They become commodities and that's a mind*ck for them and for their clients.
  • Prostitution
     Reply #98 - October 17, 2015, 12:33 PM

    .........................

    I don't really attach morality to prostitution. It's always going to exist. But I think it severely disadvantages women in general. They become commodities and that's a mind*ck for them and for their clients.
    ..................

    "But But I think it severely disadvantages women in general"  ...

    on those words of LadyDanger., I say Hello to Lady-D  and also let me ask her question.....

    So lady_D,  you say women have serious  disadvantages  in general in that field of profession"(( if you we call that as profession and women deliberately choose that as profession "without any force from any one and anything"  ))..

    Now tell me about a or any  profession that women do not have/did not had  disadvantages except either living independent  or living as wife/spouse/girlfriend  in a relationship that respects freedom, independence and equality??

    And welcome to CEMB......

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Prostitution
     Reply #99 - October 17, 2015, 01:02 PM

    I can't quote you Yeezevee, but I think prostitution makes the woman as a whole a thing and more of a commodity. Prostitution gives complete ownership of a woman's body. Even if she's a high class escort who has all kinds of security measures (not sure what they are but I am sure they have them), she isn't in control. It's the client who is in control of her WHOLE self. The client is in control because they paid to be in control. And likely the client isn't paying her for her mind. It comes down to ownership of her body and her sexuality.

    Someone here posted that there's not much difference between a prostitute and a dildo. That I think is the disadvantage women face in prostitution: she's a thing. She's an orifice and that's the sum of her whole existence. And it's kind of an othering that happens. People can other groups of people and can use this rationality to brutalize them and have done so throughout history. Same way, when women are othered (as in they're just body parts that serve a purpose for sexual release), it allows people to justify brutality against those women who engage in sex work.

    I don't think people who traffic women think of them as individuals. No they're things, commodities, that have the necessary body parts they need. My thing is that a person is likely to be more aware that they cannot treat a woman badly if they are not viewed as a thing or have a sense of ownership over the woman's body. There is a whole different power ratio between two people who are not paid for sex engaging in it as there is between a client and a prostitute. I feel I had a lot more power over my being as a media relations person than a prostitute does over her being no matter what she charged.
  • Prostitution
     Reply #100 - October 17, 2015, 01:19 PM

    Does prostitution in any way nullify rules of consent when it comes to sexual relations? I think that ends up being the key question.

    If sex is occurring legally, and with consent, than how is it different than any other unpleasant job which places either body or mind under servitude for pay?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Prostitution
     Reply #101 - October 17, 2015, 01:32 PM

    Also, some of the problems you're referring to could be dealt with by having payment occur after sexual acts. In that way sense of autonomy is maintained, and the tension is instead reduced to payment over services, as opposed to the sexual act itself.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Prostitution
     Reply #102 - October 17, 2015, 02:13 PM

    I can't quote you Yeezevee, but I think prostitution makes the woman as a whole a thing and more of a commodity. Prostitution gives complete ownership of a woman's body. Even if she's a high class escort who has all kinds of security measures (not sure what they are but I am sure they have them), she isn't in control. It's the client who is in control of her WHOLE self. The client is in control because they paid to be in control. And likely the client isn't paying her for her mind. It comes down to ownership of her body and her sexuality.


    This isn't prostitution in the normal sense, what you're describing is sexual slavery. Prostitutes as a whole, in the western world at least, are being paid for a service and dictate before hand what limits there are, what they will and won't do. Of course there are risks if the client is a psycho, but most clients are normal people.

    Someone here posted that there's not much difference between a prostitute and a dildo. That I think is the disadvantage women face in prostitution: she's a thing. She's an orifice and that's the sum of her whole existence. And it's kind of an othering that happens. People can other groups of people and can use this rationality to brutalize them and have done so throughout history. Same way, when women are othered (as in they're just body parts that serve a purpose for sexual release), it allows people to justify brutality against those women who engage in sex work.


    Again, this is slavery, not the whole of prostitution.

    I don't think people who traffic women think of them as individuals. No they're things, commodities, that have the necessary body parts they need. My thing is that a person is likely to be more aware that they cannot treat a woman badly if they are not viewed as a thing or have a sense of ownership over the woman's body. There is a whole different power ratio between two people who are not paid for sex engaging in it as there is between a client and a prostitute. I feel I had a lot more power over my being as a media relations person than a prostitute does over her being no matter what she charged.


    This unfortunately does happen. Traffickers don't see them as human beings, simply objects to use for their own gains. Slavers basically. Prostitution has always existed and probably always will, it's madness to not simply accept this, come up with appropriate laws and enforce them. It's largely the lack of aggressive enforcement in the Netherlands/Amsterdam that has allowed unlicensed, unregulated and illegal sexual "services" of the type you describe to flourish.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Prostitution
     Reply #103 - October 17, 2015, 02:32 PM

    OK I can't seem to quote you but here goes Quod Sum Eris:


    "This isn't prostitution in the normal sense, what you're describing is sexual slavery. Prostitutes as a whole, in the western world at least, are being paid for a service and dictate before hand what limits there are, what they will and won't do. Of course there are risks if the client is a psycho, but most clients are normal people."

    Really though? Sure they dictate what they will and won't do, but the point is that they offer their bodies up. Their body becomes a commodity at the time. I cannot see from any point though that a prostitute and the client are in equal footing power wise. Don't get me wrong I am totally for legalizing and regulating it, but I also don't think that it is the empowering thing that people claim it is. I am sure it is for a small percentage of people. But the fact to me remains is that a woman is then a thing, a means to an end. Not to harp on it, but someone posted here that they se nothing wrong with a prostitute because it's like a woman using a dildo (something of the sort). Again, I don't think they were meaning harm but it is a dangerous thought in itself because it has already reduced a woman to being compared to an inanimate thing used for sexual pleasure. To say that it doesn't objectify women is unfair. I think it does and I think regulating it will probably go a way to helping those women. But I know that as a media person, I was paid to do a job. Then when the powers that be were pissed they could jerk me around. I think the power balance would be more scary if I were a prostitute because the transaction would involve access to my body.

    Sure you may think my description is more sex slavery but when a woman's body is part of the transaction, it does change the power ratio. And are you telling me that an escort, even if she is being paid $$$$$ has the same power as the client? I don't think so. The transaction involves deferring ownership or in a milder way of stating things, access to her body. She is still wanted for a body part(s). She is still commodity.
  • Prostitution
     Reply #104 - October 17, 2015, 02:46 PM

    This unfortunately does happen. Traffickers don't see them as human beings, simply objects to use for their own gains. Slavers basically. Prostitution has always existed and probably always will, it's madness to not simply accept this, come up with appropriate laws and enforce them. It's largely the lack of aggressive enforcement in the Netherlands/Amsterdam that has allowed unlicensed, unregulated and illegal sexual "services" of the type you describe to flourish.


    Yay i can quote you.
    Here the thing with this though. I STILL think a person would think twice if they were hooking up with someone and then decided to ill treat them vs a prostitute. Or at the least they would feel a sense of entitlement over the prostitute even if they don't act out on it. I'm just saying mentality wise, there's a world of a difference in the power ratio. Because i think the client will feel he/she has the right to demand certain things.

    There's lots of studies that show that rape isn't about sex but about power. That itself to me puts a slightly precarious light on the work of a prostitute. Even in a completely different field I encountered people who felt like they could jerk me around because I was on their payroll. Now I had a contract, HR, etc. But  they still felt they could because of the power imbalance. I'm just not sure the dynamics in prostitution would be any better. In fact, I think they're probably much worse.
  • Prostitution
     Reply #105 - October 17, 2015, 02:50 PM

    Is there anything you specifically object to with the points I made?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Prostitution
     Reply #106 - October 17, 2015, 02:51 PM

    just that I'm not sure it applies solely to sexual slavery that is all Smiley
  • Prostitution
     Reply #107 - October 17, 2015, 02:56 PM

    When you're paying someone for a service, you usually feel that service should be met. However this is usually a choice. Slaves, by definition, don't have a choice. A 20-something/30-something woman in England who decides to have sex for money of her own free will and can stop any time she likes is not in the same situation as a woman of the same age in Thailand who is imprisoned in a brothel and can't say no.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Prostitution
     Reply #108 - October 17, 2015, 02:59 PM

    Sure, but I don't think that she is in the same power position as a woman who is interning somewhere as a *insert profession here.* I guess I just feel like there are layers of power imbalance and I think there always will be one in prostitution.
  • Prostitution
     Reply #109 - October 17, 2015, 03:00 PM

    What exactly do you mean by power?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Prostitution
     Reply #110 - October 17, 2015, 03:06 PM

    Just that they have a sense of entitlement over the other person. I'm not sure how else to describe it. Like what I said about when I was working as a media relations person. Those people sure as hell didn't own me, but still they felt entitled to make me do a, b, c (nothing insidious mind you but still). I had a contract, hr, etc. etc. But STILL they felt entitlement over me and others who were below them. That happens when one person is above in some power structure in society, be it corporate or otherwise.

    I'm just saying, the power dynamics are very much at the woman's disadvantage in prostitution because you are in essence allowing access to your body. It does give a sense of power over the person's body and self.
  • Prostitution
     Reply #111 - October 17, 2015, 03:10 PM

    So someone feeling entitled for paid services means they have power over you?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Prostitution
     Reply #112 - October 17, 2015, 03:14 PM

    I think it is definitely indicative of a power balance/ratio and is a transaction of the client's purchasing power in a way.
  • Prostitution
     Reply #113 - October 17, 2015, 03:20 PM

    For any reason other than someone feeling they should get what they've agreed to pay for?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Prostitution
     Reply #114 - October 17, 2015, 03:36 PM

    LadyDanger: Any response to my own thoughts on the matter?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Prostitution
     Reply #115 - October 17, 2015, 05:27 PM

    For any reason other than someone feeling they should get what they've agreed to pay for?


    I think the power dynamics are pretty layered and not just about this. There are a couple of good articles I read on this. Off the top of my head, I remembered one done in germany and somewhere else (forgot). The paper I think was "Intersections of Sex and Power in Prostitution" something to that effect. Don't have access to the articles anymore but I think it's definitely a layered and mor complex thing than just that.
  • Prostitution
     Reply #116 - October 17, 2015, 05:55 PM


    If I'm being totally honest even marriage doesn't seem so far from prostitution in some situations. A woman may want to get into a contract (marriage) with a wealthy man in order to ensure a steady financial reward in exchange for her affection. Once framed in the pre-conceived notions we've been conditioned with regarding marriage, it sounds completely reasonable, even desirable: A woman seeks a caring, stable man to settle down with. In reality, as long as he has control of the finances, he has fundamentally more power within the relationship. Laws surrounding marriage and divorce such as splitting the husbands assets are about trying to redress these imbalances of power, giving the financially or physically insecure party (nearly always a woman) the chance to get out of a contract without fear of destitution or mistreatment. Marriage in its traditional form is only more acceptable than prostitution because society and religion have deemed it to be. I wonder if this has been the case historically because long-term arrangements would have been easier to exert influence over, as opposed to quick transactions for immediate fulfillment. I digress... The point is that whilst modern marriage may not involve treating women as chattle, it wasn't always that way, and it's taken time to get to where we are with civil partnerships and all.


    I seem to be really into this topic lol, but I guess I just can't shut up. I think marriage isn't prostitution. I view it like this. Until pretty much recently, it was impossible to 100% ascertain paternity. Many animals, zebras/lions etc., kill young that they think isn't theirs or if they think the offspring places risk to the propagation of their genes. I think it's pretty much the same with people. Men and women had an absolute interest in a contract, i.e. marriage, of sort. It was the men who were pretty much the hunters. Which in itself was a perilous job, imagine no modern medicine, infections, dying while hunting etc. And the reward for sharing his mastadon meat would be that not only did he get to have sex with his "wife" but she would bear a child which he could with all good faith say was his. He would be sure that he was raising his child. I think some studies have shown that men tend to be less inclined to eyeing attractive women other than their partner when they are in the presence of their infant child or they hear their child crying (something like that). I think people are hard-wired to find a reliable way to make sure their genes survive and i figure marriage was the best way they could find. I think early man would have a vested interest in making sure that he had enough resources to also provide for his child. And when the child grew to an adult, the child would procure resources for the father. So i think marriage is absolutely a two-way street, survival wise.
  • Prostitution
     Reply #117 - October 17, 2015, 05:59 PM

    Does prostitution in any way nullify rules of consent when it comes to sexual relations? I think that ends up being the key question.

    If sex is occurring legally, and with consent, than how is it different than any other unpleasant job which places either body or mind under servitude for pay?


    I don't think prostitution nullifies consent just makes the environment in which consent is given different. And I feel more often than not, the environment and the power balance is not as stacked in the prostitute's favor as we'd like to hope.

    As I see it prostitution will always occur. I'm just saying that it is a very different dynamic and I feel sometimes people make it more empowering to women than it is. I just feel that the power dynamics are so complex that it makes women vulnerable and the opposite of empowered int he long run.

    However, I'm all for legalizing it and offering those women protection.
  • Prostitution
     Reply #118 - October 17, 2015, 06:33 PM

    i don't think its a good idea. unless your very very mature and level headed, it can scar you. we're brought up with words like slag tart twat etc etc. that's how society sees certain women. maybe when we've evolved a bit as human beings (in about a thousand years) then it may be okay. till then i would only  legalize it to protect the women same as ladydanger

    I've heard some pretty savvy call girls on the radio in the past and they seem to have their head screwed on and seemed to treat it just like any other job. i mean they came across as really well adjusted but i suspect these girls are far and few between compared to the masses who are on the game because they can't see any other way out.
  • Prostitution
     Reply #119 - October 18, 2015, 12:55 AM

    What do you base that on?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Previous page 1 2 3 45 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »