Do you want to destroy HIV?

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- charlesmartel
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Do you want to destroy HIV?
OP - April 02, 2010, 09:59 AM

This poll is inspired by another poll at this forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=9487.0

I think HIV infects a human being and makes him dangerous to other human beings as a carrier. Would you like to destroy the virus if you can?

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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #1 - April 02, 2010, 10:10 AM

Destroying is such a brutal word. I'd be perfectly happy with developing antibodies that neutralise the virus - not destroy.

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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #2 - April 02, 2010, 10:16 AM

Islam = Virus, HIV = Virus... we need to get rid of both.

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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #3 - April 02, 2010, 10:18 AM

The poll is misleading. It puts forward a false dilemma. There should be at least one other option.

"Develop a vaccine and study the virus because there is much we can learn from it and use the acquired knowledge in the next outbreak of another virus."

Besides you do realize that there is a difference between a virus and its host?
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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #4 - April 02, 2010, 10:27 AM

Quote from: z10 on April 02, 2010, 10:10 AM
Destroying is such a brutal word. I'd be perfectly happy with developing antibodies that neutralise the virus - not destroy.

lol, you are too good, man. You almost had me stumped!

Developing antibodies, and then administering the same to the whole world population, would be fine enough except for the fact that it is a task which probably can never be accomplished completely. Secondly, I would consider such a neutralization as destruction of this virus for all practical purposes.

I know that the whole population of HIV probably can't be completely destroyed. The poll asks a hypothetical question just to know the members' opinion about what they would prefer to do if they had the chance and means to destroy the virus.

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #5 - April 02, 2010, 10:33 AM

Quote from: Kenan on April 02, 2010, 10:18 AM
The poll is misleading. It puts forward a false dilemma. There should be at least one other option.

"Develop a vaccine and study the virus because there is much we can learn from it and use the acquired knowledge in the next outbreak of another virus."

There can be many other options too if we really put our brains to it. However, your objection can be met with a hypothetical scenario where we might isolate a small sample to study and analyze and destroy the rest.

Did you vote for any option?

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Besides you do realize that there is a difference between a virus and its host?

Of course, I do. I would try to avoid the types of contacts with the host which might get me infected as well.

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #6 - April 02, 2010, 10:34 AM

Yes, I suppose it is a matter of connotation. While destruction seems to imply a heavy-handed aggressive shock and awe style extermination, neutralisation would include what kenan mentioned above: carefully researched study of the virus that will contribute to humanity's knowledge and defense against future viruses too.
There is also one more key difference I believe - neutralisation will only make the virus ineffective against humans and thus make it impotent, destruction will make it extinct.

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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #7 - April 02, 2010, 10:42 AM

I voted #2.
Except I don't think ALL viruses should be destroyed.
Only some.

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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #8 - April 02, 2010, 10:48 AM

Logical fallacy -FAIL

I voted no.2 but its a false analogy, so you cant really draw any conclusions from the poll -

nobody wants HIV, whereas there are plenty of people who want Islam, and also those who freely convert to it e.g if somebody wanted HIV, I dont have a problem with them having it.

Called freedom of choice innit

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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #9 - April 02, 2010, 10:54 AM

Quote from: z10 on April 02, 2010, 10:34 AM
There is also one more key difference I believe - neutralisation will only make the virus ineffective against humans and thus make it impotent, destruction will make it extinct.

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I would consider such a neutralization as destruction of this virus for all practical purposes.

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #10 - April 02, 2010, 10:58 AM

Quote from: IsLame on April 02, 2010, 10:48 AM
nobody wants HIV, whereas there are plenty of people who want Islam, and also those who freely convert to it e.g if somebody wanted HIV, I dont have a problem with them having it.

Called freedom of choice innit

I haven't yet talked of Islam in this thread, lol.

But now that you have raised a valid point, what if an HIV infected person tries to force you to get infected too, or proposes that you be treated like a second class citizen if you refuse to get infected. Also, what if the infected person threatens to kill another infected person who gets a treatment for his infection?

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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #11 - April 02, 2010, 10:59 AM

Ah, the analogy is with Islam?
Lol, it's totally off then.

Because HIV is not part of a person itself.
While Islam is nothing but a particular "state" the "human machine" can be in.

Destruction of Islam or any other idea that might be perceived as dangerous MIGHT seem a nice idea.
In reality, it cannot be implemented even if you had total control of every single atom in the universe UNLESS you are also willing to cripple the brain of every human in such a way that they become unable to conceive something like Islam.

Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #12 - April 02, 2010, 11:04 AM

Quote from: charlesmartel on April 02, 2010, 10:58 AM
I haven't yet talked of Islam in this thread, lol.

But now that you have raised a valid point, what if an HIV infected person tries to force you to get infected too, or proposes that you be treated like a second class citizen if you refuse to get infected.

Its an illegal practise that should be banned. We cant force countries that adopt such laws to follow our own code of ethics, but we should certainly try to help those that are afflicted.
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Also, what if the infected person threatens to kill another infected person who gets a treatment for his infection?

An obvious question, threatening to murder somebody is wrong. They should be put behind bars.

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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #13 - April 02, 2010, 11:09 AM

Quote from: charlesmartel on April 02, 2010, 10:33 AM
Did you vote for any option?

No I did not for the reasons I stated.

Quote from: charlesmartel on April 02, 2010, 10:33 AM
Of course, I do. I would try to avoid the types of contacts with the host which might get me infected as well.

What if this virus can only be transmitted through acceptance of it? It cannot infect an unwilling host.
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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #14 - April 02, 2010, 11:09 AM

Quote from: Tlaloc on April 02, 2010, 10:59 AM
Ah, the analogy is with Islam?
Lol, it's totally off then.

I don't really want to talk about Islam in this thread. That is why I put this poll in the lounge section. Let us just analyze certain hypothetical scenarios just for fun.
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Destruction of Islam or any other idea that might be perceived as dangerous MIGHT seem a nice idea.
In reality, it cannot be implemented even if you had total control of every single atom in the universe UNLESS you are also willing to cripple the brain of every human in such a way that they become unable to conceive something like Islam.

I agree fully with you. No idea can be destroyed; it can only be rendered harmless or impotent. However, wanting something is different. If there were means, I would want to destroy ideas like racism for example.

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #15 - April 02, 2010, 11:12 AM

Quote from: Kenan on April 02, 2010, 11:09 AM
What if this virus can only be transmitted through acceptance of it? It cannot infect an unwilling host.

In that case I wouldn't want to accept it, simple.
But that doesn't render the virus harmless, does it?

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #16 - April 02, 2010, 11:15 AM

What happens if the host sees it as medicine, and doesnt agree with your diagnosis? Should you deny him this placebo, when you're not even his doctor?

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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #17 - April 02, 2010, 11:17 AM

Quote from: charlesmartel on April 02, 2010, 11:12 AM
But that doesn't render the virus harmless, does it?

No. But it does render it irrelevant.
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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #18 - April 02, 2010, 11:23 AM

Quote from: IsLame on April 02, 2010, 11:15 AM
What happens if the host sees it as medicine, and doesnt agree with your diagnosis? Should you deny him this placebo, when you're not even his doctor?

What was done regarding Slavery? Surely the slave owners, and many of the slaves, didn't want to get it abolished?

Just asking.

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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #19 - April 02, 2010, 11:44 AM

At COEM, we are focusing our efforts on making Islam irrelevent by making the host less willing to accept it.

FFI on the other hand want to destroy Islam, but will never be able to do so.

We all know viruses are indestructible and attempting to cull them might make them even more likely to mutate and more virulent, making a bigger problem than what you first started with!

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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #20 - April 02, 2010, 11:46 AM

Quote from: charlesmartel on April 02, 2010, 11:23 AM
What was done regarding Slavery? Surely the slave owners, and many of the slaves, didn't want to get it abolished?

Just asking.

I dont know, but even in Saudi Arabia slaves are no longer commonplace. So tell me, what was done to stop it there?

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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #21 - April 02, 2010, 12:52 PM

Quote from: IsLame on April 02, 2010, 11:44 AM
At COEM, we are focusing our efforts on making Islam irrelevent by making the host less willing to accept it.

FFI on the other hand want to destroy Islam, but will never be able to do so.

Hey, don't blame me later on; I am not inclined much about talking about Islam on this forum right now (may be later).

I too wonder how anyone, FFI or any other entity, can destroy Islam. So, I have always taken "destruction of Islam" to mean neutered, rendered irrelevant or kicked out of fashion by educating people including Muslims about it. I have also read the bit about educating people at FFI many a times. I am sure that barring a stray nut or two, no one means destruction of Islam to be destruction of Muslims.

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We all know viruses are indestructible and attempting to cull them might make them even more likely to mutate and more virulent, making a bigger problem than what you first started with!

Nice, we are back to the topic at hand . But what you say is a irrelevant to whether you "want" to destroy/neuter it. For example, even if I know that it is not possible to destroy or eliminate all the diseases from the face of the earth, I would still want to destroy/eliminate them.

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #22 - April 02, 2010, 12:55 PM

Quote from: IsLame on April 02, 2010, 11:46 AM
I dont know, but even in Saudi Arabia slaves are no longer commonplace. So tell me, what was done to stop it there?

In the USA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States#Civil_War_and_Emancipation

It took a civil war to abolish it!!

I don't know about Saudi Arabia. Will have to look up on the internet.

EDIT: Though I remember reading somewhere that it was the pressure from USA/Western world which forced the Saudis to abolish it.

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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #23 - April 02, 2010, 01:03 PM

Quote from: charlesmartel on April 02, 2010, 12:55 PM
In the USA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States#Civil_War_and_Emancipation

It took a civil war to abolish it!!

We werent talking about the US here so dont try that trick, we were talking about slavery within the context of Islam, and whether Muslims could get rid of slavery on their own or only with external intervention.

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I don't know about Saudi Arabia. Will have to look up on the internet.

Quote from: charlesmartel on April 02, 2010, 12:52 PM
Hey, don't blame me later on; I am not inclined much about talking about Islam on this forum right now (may be later).

I too wonder how anyone, FFI or any other entity, can destroy Islam. So, I have always taken "destruction of Islam" to mean neutered, rendered irrelevant or kicked out of fashion by educating people including Muslims about it. I have also read the bit about educating people at FFI many a times. I am sure that barring a stray nut or two, no one means destruction of Islam to be destruction of Muslims.

Poor choice of wording then, rephrase the wording to mean irrelevent rather than something that implies physical damage & carnage
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Nice, we are back to the topic at hand . But what you say is a irrelevant to whether you "want" to destroy/neuter it. For example, even if I know that it is not possible to destroy or eliminate all the diseases from the face of the earth, I would still want to destroy/eliminate them.

Maybe its a language problem or a culture thing at FFI. You dont need to use dramatic language to make a point. Its childish & immature, and just retracts from the discussion because all we end up doing is arguing about the details.

I think if you stop doing that, and we might find that we almost agree with each other. But I am not sure if thats what you want, I think you just like drama & arguments for the sake of arguments.

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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #24 - April 02, 2010, 02:26 PM

A poor use of words... "Menace", "threat to humanity", "destroy", "fault of infected people".

When you use words that imply the things that you've obviously implied, you make it out as if people who have HIV are somehow evil people. I know that was not your intentions, but that's what it implies with suggestive wording.

I wouldn't vote "Yes", but I couldn't vote "No" either because the options you've given us are littered with ridiculous words too. I don't think it's anyone's "fault" necessarily, ask any person with HIV and I'm sure they'd say they did not want it, and at the same time I don't think we should stop the "menace" by "destroying" it either.
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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #25 - April 02, 2010, 03:23 PM

Ye, this is a poor analogy to Islam, if it is one. Islam is a psychological virus whereas HIV is a physical one which eventually results in the victim dying. Islam, on the other hand has the capability of also being physically harmful but is not always gauranteed to be. In fact most Muslims follow their own version of Islam which in most cases does not result in people being harmed at least not on a physical level.

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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #26 - April 02, 2010, 03:29 PM

Quote from: IsLame on April 02, 2010, 01:03 PM
We werent talking about the US here so dont try that trick, we were talking about slavery within the context of Islam, and whether Muslims could get rid of slavery on their own or only with external intervention.

Then there was a little misunderstanding. I wasn't talking about slavery in context of Islam. I was talking of it in general in response to your post which asked me
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What happens if the host sees it as medicine, and doesnt agree with your diagnosis? Should you deny him this placebo, when you're not even his doctor?

I just gave you an example, call it analogy if you wish, wherein something wrong is done away with even against the wishes of its beneficiaries. Would you call abolition of slavery by force in the context of USA an infringement of the freedom of those who wished it to continue?
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:popcorn:Poor choice of wording then, rephrase the wording to mean irrelevent rather than something that implies physical damage & carnageMaybe its a language problem or a culture thing at FFI. You dont need to use dramatic language to make a point. Its childish & immature, and just retracts from the discussion because all we end up doing is arguing about the details.

You could give the same advice to the starter of the other poll too. The wording was chosen to match the other poll. Almost all the criticisms of this poll and its choices apply to the other poll as well. How come the other poll is ok and this one is not? Is it because it was started by me? How come the same choice of wording is peaceful, politically correct and fully acceptable at the other thread? I would make the same statement about the other poll: "Maybe its a language problem or a culture thing at CEMB. You dont need to use dramatic language to make a point. Its childish & immature, and just retracts from the discussion".

If you noticed, I stated that for me destruction/neutralization of Islam mean the same thing and I also wondered how it is possible to "destroy" Islam if you take the question literally.

I have been stating my position again and again. Too bad that the parallel between the two threads is bothering you.

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I think if you stop doing that, and we might find that we almost agree with each other. But I am not sure if thats what you want, I think you just like drama & arguments for the sake of arguments.

I just want consistency in your position.

I could have asked the same question to Hassan (what does he mean "destroy Islam?"), but I got his meaning. I could understand that literal destruction of Islam or any other religion is not possible so he must have meant rendering it impotent, irrelevant, defanged and so on an so forth. Why is it so difficult for you to understand the same here? When I ask if you want to destroy HIV, I surely don't mean we would be able to find and maybe bomb all the HIV into oblivion.

Sorry, but you are sidetracking the issue with technicalities.

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Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #27 - April 02, 2010, 03:40 PM

Quote from: Heyjustlooking on April 02, 2010, 03:23 PM
Ye, this is a poor analogy to Islam, if it is one. Islam is a psychological virus whereas HIV is a physical one which eventually results in the victim dying. Islam, on the other hand has the capability of also being physically harmful but is not always gauranteed to be. In fact most Muslims follow their own version of Islam which in most cases does not result in people being harmed at least not on a physical level.

Analogy does not mean exact similarity, and analogous does not mean similar.

Definition with example: 1.having analogy; corresponding in some particular: A brain and a computer are analogous.

I could argue that brain and a computer are NOT analogous because brain contains living cells whereas computer doesn't. I could point out dozens of differences.

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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #28 - April 02, 2010, 03:46 PM

Quote from: charlesmartel on April 02, 2010, 09:59 AM
This poll is inspired by another poll at this forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=9487.0

I think HIV infects a human being and makes him dangerous to other human beings as a carrier. Would you like to destroy the virus if you can?

If the virus is alive (well not technically alive but akin to it) why not make it extinct just as other life forms go extinct? I say destroy it.
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Re: Do you want to destroy HIV?
Reply #29 - April 02, 2010, 03:50 PM

I know, analogy implies it's a comparable example. I guess I want to get to the crux of your general point and ask do you think Christianity has been 'destroyed'?

I think I dislike your use of the word 'destroy' more than anything else. I would want to see Islam completely secularised. That does not entail destroying it, not in an absolute sense, anyway. However I do want to destroy the political nature of Islam. Much like I want to see HIV contained and studied, and a cure found for it. I do see what you are trying to get at with this analogy, if this was indeed the point you are trying to make.

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