Islam and Democracy

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- Iraqi Atheist
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Islam and Democracy
OP - April 03, 2010, 10:34 AM

So our newest member, lily, posted this link in another thread http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/107166/elections

The author of the article is basically saying that democracy is incompatible with Shariah and that only "God's words" should be followed..blah blah blah

I have to say, I never heard this before although I'm not really surprised by it.

So what do you guys know about this? is this a mainstream opinion among Muslim scholars? and do you personally think that democracy is at odds with the message of Islam and the whole submission to Allah thing?
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #1 - April 03, 2010, 10:53 AM

In Pakistan a democratic system is followed, and same with afghanistan and many other muslim countries.
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #2 - April 03, 2010, 11:40 AM

Fundamentalist muslims, such as salafis or ahlu-sunnah, do not consider these regimes as following islam. They actually make takfeer on their leaders.

islam-qa.com is an important collection of fatwas for these groups. What I like about it, is that they are completely based on quran and strong hadeeths. They do not accept anything else. This makes them extreme and dangerous, but on the other hand, oddly, it also makes them more reasonable. Reading their reasoning, I can open quran and confirm it, so the reasoning about participating in elections being shirk, based on real islamic sources, makes perfect sense to me.

Funnily, it is not at all defined who actually would lead an islamic state. How this leader would be determined. How judges judging Sharia courts are to be determined, etc. Well, at least I did not come across any definition like that. Maybe anyone else did?
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #3 - April 03, 2010, 12:32 PM

Quote from: liberated on April 03, 2010, 10:53 AM
In Pakistan a democratic system is followed, and same with afghanistan and many other muslim countries.

Umm wasn't Pakistan a military dictatorship just a couple of years ago. Bangladesh? same again. Pretty early days to be claiming Afghanistan as 'democratic' don't you think?

Wikipedia has a handy list of muslim majority countries and their forms of government:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_majority_countries

How many of these would you really list as stable democracies? Many that may now be democracies have had recent periods of military rule such as Bangladesh and Pakistan. Others such as Lebanon achieve democracy only by preserving certain positions for particular religious groups. A great many are simply monarchies or dictatorships.

Of course, I guess, it's really a theological question but the list of countries doesn't provide encouraging reading in my view.

Like with the communists, maybe it's 'one person, one vote, one time'...
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #4 - April 03, 2010, 01:09 PM

In pakistan, the guy who was overthrown when the marshal law was invoked and the army cheif took over, was quite a loon and was doing such a poor job that it was his own fault for getting overthrown by military. Pakistan doesn't really have any good politicians, and does much better when under military control, IMO. But apart from that a democratic system is certainly in place.
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #5 - April 03, 2010, 03:59 PM

Quote from: liberated
In pakistan, the guy who was overthrown when the marshal law was invoked and the army cheif took over, was quite a loon and was doing such a poor job that it was his own fault for getting overthrown by military. Pakistan doesn't really have any good politicians, and does much better when under military control, IMO. But apart from that a democratic system is certainly in place.

I'm not sure a country with a propensity to revert to military control can really claim to have a strong democratic system.

Why should this be the case in Pakistan but not in India? Is the fact that one is majority muslim, the reason why democracy hasn't taken root in the same way?
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #6 - April 03, 2010, 04:25 PM

Bangladesh has always been democratic. Bangladesh Constitution comes first than Islam. The Issue with that all Care Taker Government was a temporary method to clean up all its political corruption in the government and set up new elections. In the end people did vote and elect their leader.

Bangladeshis have a strong sense of freedom because of the "mukthibhanis" or the freedom fighters. There is always a pride amongst them because they fought for their right to independence.

Hopefully Bangladesh in the years to come can become a even more secularized country far away from Muslim influential. Well one can hope
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #7 - April 03, 2010, 04:47 PM

Quote from: _truth_
Bangladesh has always been democratic. The Issue with that all Care Taker Government was a temporary method to clean up all its political corruption in the government and set up new elections. In the end people did vote and elect their leader.

Bangladesh separated from Pakistan in 1971. There was a military coup in 1975 (after Mujib had already implemented a single party system) and another in 1982. The first real elections happened in 1991 but in 1994 the opposition boycotted Parliament. In 1996 when Hasina won, the BNP did the same. In 2001, the BNP wins in a coalition with Islamist parties and by the end of that parliament the army has stepped in again.

It's hard to see how this history qualifies Bangladesh to have been 'always democractic'.

Although I find it interesting that both posters seem to think that this army role is somehow justified. If democracy was functioning well, there should be civilian control of the military and such interventions shouldn't be necessary at all.

Quote from: _truth_
Bangladeshis have a strong sense of freedom because of the "mukthibhanis" or the freedom fighters. There is always a pride amongst them because they fought for their right to independence.

Hopefully Bangladesh in the years to come can become a even more secularized country far away from Muslim influential. Well one can hope

Sure. I hope so too. But if it takes a strong secularism or the relatively secular armies in these places to keep 'democracy' in place, isn't that a vote against Islam's compatibility with democracy?
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #8 - April 03, 2010, 04:50 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvAT7j4L1xY

Islam and democracy=KUFR

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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #9 - April 03, 2010, 04:56 PM

Quote from: sparky on April 03, 2010, 04:47 PM
Bangladesh separated from Pakistan in 1971. There was a military coup in 1975 (after Mujib had already implemented a single party system) and another in 1982. The first real elections happened in 1991 but in 1994 the opposition boycotted Parliament. In 1996 when Hasina won, the BNP did the same. In 2001, the BNP wins in a coalition with Islamist parties and by the end of that parliament the army has stepped in again.

It's hard to see how this history qualifies Bangladesh to have been 'always democractic'.

Although I find it interesting that both posters seem to think that this army role is somehow justified. If democracy was functioning well, there should be civilian control of the military and such interventions shouldn't be necessary at all.

Sure. I hope so too. But if it takes a strong secularism or the relatively secular armies in these places to keep 'democracy' in place, isn't that a vote against Islam's compatibility with democracy?

None of these military coups which you talk about have anything to do with Islam. Your argument has no validity here. These Military Coups are coming from corrupt leaders trying to get in power, not because they are trying implement what Islam wants.

Dont mix Islam into this because the two has nothing to do with it. History has shown countries go through governmental changes before it stabilizes down.

At the end of the day people in Bangladesh do vote and it is considered a Parliamentary republic
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #10 - April 03, 2010, 05:06 PM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on April 03, 2010, 10:34 AM
So our newest member, lily, posted this link in another thread http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/107166/elections

The author of the article is basically saying that democracy is incompatible with Shariah and that only "God's words" should be followed..blah blah blah

I have to say, I never heard this before although I'm not really surprised by it.

So what do you guys know about this? is this a mainstream opinion among Muslim scholars? and do you personally think that democracy is at odds with the message of Islam and the whole submission to Allah thing?

Shari'ah - if practised fully - is incompatible with Democracy.

The Muslim countries that have a Democracy (of sorts) are not implementing Shari'ah fully (thankfully.)
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #11 - April 04, 2010, 02:19 AM

Quote from: sparky on April 03, 2010, 03:59 PM
I'm not sure a country with a propensity to revert to military control can really claim to have a strong democratic system.Why should this be the case in Pakistan but not in India? Is the fact that one is majority muslim, the reason why democracy hasn't taken root in the same way?

I don't know really. Corrupt politicians being more rich in pakistan is certainly one of the causes.
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #12 - April 04, 2010, 06:35 AM

Quote from: _truth_
None of these military coups which you talk about have anything to do with Islam. Your argument has no validity here. These Military Coups are coming from corrupt leaders trying to get in power, not because they are trying implement what Islam wants.

But you just said that the last coup in Bangladesh was to clean up politics rather than to get in power.

And I didn't say that the coups were from Islam - in fact I said the opposite - it seems that in the cases of Pakistan, Bangladesh and Turkey, the military interventions seem to be to prevent political Islam from taking hold.

Quote from: _truth_
Dont mix Islam into this because the two has nothing to do with it. History has shown countries go through governmental changes before it stabilizes down.

Like I said, I suppose the compatibility between Islam and democracy is a theological question. All I am trying to point out is that from a practical point of view, examples of countries that are majority muslim and strongly democratic are hard to come by. But maybe we just need to be patient.

Quote from: _truth_
At the end of the day people in Bangladesh do vote and it is considered a Parliamentary republic.

Sure, today. A couple of years ago it was a military dictatorship.
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #13 - April 04, 2010, 06:47 AM

Quote from: liberated
I don't know really. Corrupt politicians being more rich in pakistan is certainly one of the causes

But in a democratic system, the balance between the institutions and free media serve to limit the scope for corruption. I find it hard to believe that the politicians in Pakistan are inherently more corrupt than those in India.
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #14 - April 04, 2010, 06:56 AM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on April 03, 2010, 10:34 AM
So our newest member, lily, posted this link in another thread http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/107166/elections

The author of the article is basically saying that democracy is incompatible with Shariah and that only "God's words" should be followed..blah blah blah

I have to say, I never heard this before although I'm not really surprised by it.

So what do you guys know about this? is this a mainstream opinion among Muslim scholars? and do you personally think that democracy is at odds with the message of Islam and the whole submission to Allah thing?

That surprises me that being from Iraq, a Muslim majority country, you have never heard this but I have been hearing this for a long time in Britain. The salafis have been pushing this for a long time and as far as I can remember, I have been seeing fly posters and stickers at election time saying "don't vote. It's haram".

Narrow minded bastards!

Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #15 - April 04, 2010, 07:02 AM

Quote from: Hassan on April 03, 2010, 05:06 PM
Shari'ah - if practised fully - is incompatible with Democracy.

The Muslim countries that have a Democracy (of sorts) are not implementing Shari'ah fully (thankfully.)

But isn't it deeper than that? The first answer in the link is more about the very concept of a God who gives laws than the content of those laws themselves. God is the only true law giver and true worship is obedience to God's laws. Obedience to laws that come from something else (such as 'man-made' democracy) is therefore shirk. Participation is justified only to limit evil but principally to change the system.

I'd be interested to read if there are alternative views of Islam that overcome this kind of objection.
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #16 - April 04, 2010, 07:13 AM

Sparky, I think what Hassan means is, the trick is not to think about it.
Like how there are plenty of christians who havent sold everything they own to live in a commune. Same thing with muslims. Think of how many muslims you know that actually follow all the sharia. They can't. It is simply not practical even, and religious people these days have generally had to turn cognitive dissonance into an art form.

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #17 - April 04, 2010, 07:44 AM

Quote from: Homer
Sparky, I think what Hassan means is, the trick is not to think about it.
Like how there are plenty of christians who havent sold everything they own to live in a commune. Same thing with muslims. Think of how many muslims you know that actually follow all the sharia. They can't. It is simply not practical even, and religious people these days have generally had to turn cognitive dissonance into an art form.

Hi Homer,
And I think that's what I was trying to get at. For Christianity, there clearly is a concept of 'man-made' laws - Christians are even told to obey them because those who issue them have a delegated authority to do so. You might even be able to see this in the creation account where man is told to 'rule' the earth. For Islam, I'm not sure if a similar concept exists - God is the only true law-giver and any other kind of law is inherently wrong. It's not so much that muslims have to ignore a particular inconvenient moral code but that they have to deny the very character of God and to worship something that is not God.
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #18 - April 04, 2010, 07:45 AM

Democracy is also about changing the laws of governance with the changing times. Does Islam allow changing of laws (Shariah)?

Answer this question to yourself and you will understand if Islam is compatible with democracy.

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #19 - April 04, 2010, 08:09 AM

ah, I see what you mean.
Yes, in general there is more conflict. Double with the commands to set up 'god law' and enforce it.

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #20 - April 04, 2010, 08:16 AM

Quote from: Homer on April 04, 2010, 08:09 AM
ah, I see what you mean.
Yes, in general there is more conflict. Double with the commands to set up 'god law' and enforce it.

Exactly. The choice of this or that Ayatollah or Comrade General Secretary is hardly a democracy.

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #21 - April 04, 2010, 08:47 AM

Quote from: sparky on April 04, 2010, 07:02 AM
But isn't it deeper than that? The first answer in the link is more about the very concept of a God who gives laws than the content of those laws themselves. God is the only true law giver and true worship is obedience to God's laws. Obedience to laws that come from something else (such as 'man-made' democracy) is therefore shirk.

Yes, and Shirk is exactly what the fundamentalists, Salafis, Muhajiroun etc... accuse those Muslims governments of - and why they want to topple them.

There is no question that the very concept of Shari'ah as a Divine Law contradicts Democracy and if implemented fully as the fundamentalists want there wouldn't even be a limited form of Democracy. But like I say many Muslim countries do not implement it fully - which is why the fundamentalists hate them and want to over-throw them.
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #22 - April 04, 2010, 09:02 AM

Quote from: sparky on April 04, 2010, 07:02 AM
I'd be interested to read if there are alternative views of Islam that overcome this kind of objection.

There are interpretations of Islam that do not regard Shari'ah as a complete and detailed Divine Law that directs how a political state should be run. Some regard it as something personal, spiritual/metaphoric or was only relevant to the context of Muhammad etc.. - such as many Sufis, Secular Muslims, Modernists, Moderate and Liberal views of Islam etc...

When I was a Muslim I used to argue that Shar'ah Law as it exists in the work of scholars is mainly a man-made construction and that only the general, personal spiritual, moral etc... precepts are relevant - while the laws Muhammad implemented were only for his time and were never meant to form part of an "Eternal Divine Law". (Of course I see the flaws in that argument - which is one reason I eventually rejected Islam - but many Muslims I know still cling to such a belief.)

You can do a search yourself, but here's a couple of examples:

http://www.free-minds.org/democracy

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis

Of course in my opinion they are following a 'made-up' and personal Islam - but that's what Muslims do to get round what is - as I say - a clear contradiction between Shar'iah and Democracy.
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #23 - April 04, 2010, 09:16 AM

Quote from: Homer on April 04, 2010, 07:13 AM
Sparky, I think what Hassan means is, the trick is not to think about it.
Like how there are plenty of christians who havent sold everything they own to live in a commune. Same thing with muslims. Think of how many muslims you know that actually follow all the sharia. They can't. It is simply not practical even, and religious people these days have generally had to turn cognitive dissonance into an art form.

Yes, most Muslims are either ignorant of the true nature of Shari'ah - or try not to think about it and avoid it. Paying lip-service to it while living lives that often totally contradict it.

Most politicians in Muslim countries that have a form of Democracy must be well aware of the contradictions but avoid it or just plain ignore it. A bit like the Emperors New Clothes. Most ordinary people are happy to play along as they don't want a Taliban type govt. Only the fundamentalists are shouting "The Emperor's got no clothes on!"
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #24 - April 04, 2010, 09:20 AM

Quote from: Hassan on April 04, 2010, 09:16 AM
Yes, most Muslims are either ignorant of the true nature of Shari'ah - or try not to think about it and avoid it. Paying lip-service to it while living lives that often totally contradict it.

That lip service is quite dangerous as it lends legitimacy and strength to those who are serious about it.

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #25 - April 04, 2010, 09:22 AM

Quote from: charlesmartel on April 04, 2010, 09:20 AM
That lip service is quite dangerous as it lends legitimacy and strength to those who are serious about it.

I agree and most Muslims don't realise this as they don't fully understand what they are paying lip-service to. They have a rosy image of Islam in their minds that is far removed from the version the fundamentalists want to implement.
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #26 - April 04, 2010, 09:34 AM

Quote from: Mixu Paatelainen on April 04, 2010, 06:56 AM
That surprises me that being from Iraq, a Muslim majority country, you have never heard this but I have been hearing this for a long time in Britain. The salafis have been pushing this for a long time and as far as I can remember, I have been seeing fly posters and stickers at election time saying "don't vote. It's haram".

Narrow minded bastards!

Would it surprise you if I told that I have seen more long-bearded blokes and full Niqabis in Manchester than in Baghdad?
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #27 - April 04, 2010, 09:58 AM

Quote from: Hassan on April 04, 2010, 09:22 AM
I agree and most Muslims don't realise this as they don't fully understand what they are paying lip-service to. They have a rosy image of Islam in their minds that is far removed from the version the fundamentalists want to implement.

That is why I think it is very essential to educate the masses about Shariah/Islam and its dangers. The Muslim world can not afford to remain ignorant of its own religion for much longer. Call me a scaremonger if you wish, but I see the day of confrontation between Muslim and non-Muslim world looming nearer and nearer because of the actions of nutty Islamists. If the day of reckoning arrives someday, the ignorant (and innocent because of their ignorance) Muslims would suffer along with rest of humanity.

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #28 - April 04, 2010, 10:00 AM

Quote
I see the day of confrontation between Muslim and non-Muslim world looming nearer and nearer

Yea, not really.
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Re: Islam and Democracy
Reply #29 - April 04, 2010, 11:29 AM

Quote from: charlesmartel on April 04, 2010, 09:58 AM
Call me a scaremonger if you wish

You're a scare monger!

(You said )

Seriously, I understand what you're saying but I firmly believe that man's humanity always overcome's narrow-minded dogma in most human beings.

Most Muslims are peaceful and will interpret Islam in moderate way - regardless of what you and I believe Islam actually says.

When I say I am not against Islam, I mean I am not against the vast majority of Muslims who interpret Islam in their own peaceful way - even though I may think their Islam is a made-up personal Islam.

Of course I believe I am free to give my opinion about Islam - and I do! But I am not as obsessive and paranoid as some are and can quite happily live with most Muslims without feeling the need I must change them in order to save humanity.

That's what I mean when I say I am not against Islam.
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