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 Topic: Chromosomes in quran?

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  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Chromosomes in quran?
     OP - April 04, 2010, 01:26 AM
    So I was discussing with a muslim the verse which says 'we have made everything in pairs'. He told me he would consult a sheikh about this, and this was his reply:

    Quote
    I consulted with a sheikh about your pairs question. He said this means that everything has a male and female gender or more specifically to single cellular organisms: two chromosomes....whatever species there is it has to have two to reproduce and exist. Whether or not a species can be male or female ,or have the will to change or become asexual...it still has to have both genders or at least two chromosomes to split to exist.


    So is it true that asexual organisms also need 2 chromosomes in order to reproduce? I do know that humans have a chrosome X and Y, but what about asexual organisms and plants, etc?
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #1 - April 04, 2010, 03:19 AM
    Ok, so far I've found that the Chrosome X and Chromosome Y which are probably what the sheikh was refering to, are only found in mammals/sexually producing animals.

    Is there any other truth to the claim that every species must have 2 chromosomes to reproduce asexually or that these chromosomes have any male/female characteristics?
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #2 - April 04, 2010, 03:25 AM
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-determination_system
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #3 - April 04, 2010, 03:30 AM
    @devsult, I'm trying to find any microorganisms which have 1 chromosome or an odd number of chrosomes like 3 or 5, anything in mind?
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #4 - April 04, 2010, 03:44 AM
    Oh I thought you were talking about sex chromosomes.  I honestly don't know, I hazily remember biology.  I know that Down Syndrome people have an extra copy of a chromosome and prions ( such as Mad Cow) are simply chunks of protein that replicate, they don't have a full dna strand.  Other than that I would have to do some google research Smiley

    Also there is the ever present question, if the Quran really speaks of Chromosomes, why did people only start interpreting that scripture in lights of Chromosomes only after they were discovered?  No one before the discovery of chromosomes interpreted it that way, does that mean the Quran's interpretation has changed? just my random thought.  
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #5 - April 04, 2010, 03:56 AM
    well the "in pairs" refers to male and female. these sheiks keep changing the meaning of the verses to suit their meaning. tell that to the idiot muslim you were arguing with.

    also it is a huge contradiction!!!

    it leaves out asexual organisms. i bet mo didnt know these existed in his times Smiley
    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #6 - April 04, 2010, 04:27 AM
    Yep, I also found that most unicellular organism have only ONE chromosome. That should kill that claim that every living thing needs 2 chromosomes to survive and reproduce.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteria#Genetics

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaea#Genetics
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #7 - April 04, 2010, 08:07 AM
    Also some species can reproduce by parthenogenesis. This ability is fairly common in reptiles. Presumably it would also be possible in amphibians but you'd have to check on that. AFAIK it is not possible in birds and mammals.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #8 - April 04, 2010, 08:35 AM
    I think archaea only have one chromosome.
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #9 - April 04, 2010, 08:42 AM
    Quote from: liberated on April 04, 2010, 04:27 AM
    Yep, I also found that most unicellular organism have only ONE chromosome. That should kill that claim that every living thing needs 2 chromosomes to survive and reproduce.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteria#Genetics

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaea#Genetics


    And I see you beat me to it.

    And this kind of thing is typical. Muslims try to reinterpret things until they fit.

    I discussed this with a Muslim guy and he started talking about DNA and all that, even though the verse says that 'all things,' not just DNA, are created in pairs.
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #10 - April 04, 2010, 09:29 AM
    It's not the chromosome that is paired.  When two creatures breed all of their DNA splits in half, and then into small segments.

    These segments move around until they find the best pairing match from the broken up DNA of the other creature, the two halves join together, and then the fragments rejoin to recreate a long DNA chain.

    Creatures like slugs which can reproduce with themselves also go through this process, but they can also breed with other slugs.  

    Things like viruses do NOT reproduce in DNA pairs.  They hijack a living cell which is normally responsible for acting like a factory, for example creating blood cells, and then getting that factory to reproduce the virus's DNA instead.

    So no, not only is "chromosome" the wrong word to use (I suppose it should be DNA base pairs) but it is untrue for viruses.  Viruses however do have DNA base pairs, so they are constructed from pairs - however this would mean then are created FROM pairs or OF pairs, it would not mean they are created IN pairs.

    Jinn: FROM fire
    Humans: FROM clay
    All animals: IN pairs

    It's clearly NOT describing the ORIGIN of a life but relationships.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #11 - April 04, 2010, 09:57 AM
    great explanation rationalizer Afro
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #12 - April 04, 2010, 02:27 PM
    sometimes however you can get xxxx or xxxy or xxy or xyy
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #13 - April 04, 2010, 04:21 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on April 04, 2010, 09:29 AM
    It's not the chromosome that is paired.  When two creatures breed all of their DNA splits in half, and then into small segments.

    These segments move around until they find the best pairing match from the broken up DNA of the other creature, the two halves join together, and then the fragments rejoin to recreate a long DNA chain.

    Creatures like slugs which can reproduce with themselves also go through this process, but they can also breed with other slugs.  

    Things like viruses do NOT reproduce in DNA pairs.  They hijack a living cell which is normally responsible for acting like a factory, for example creating blood cells, and then getting that factory to reproduce the virus's DNA instead.

    So no, not only is "chromosome" the wrong word to use (I suppose it should be DNA base pairs) but it is untrue for viruses.  Viruses however do have DNA base pairs, so they are constructed from pairs - however this would mean then are created FROM pairs or OF pairs, it would not mean they are created IN pairs.

    Jinn: FROM fire
    Humans: FROM clay
    All animals: IN pairs

    It's clearly NOT describing the ORIGIN of a life but relationships.


    Very well put.  Afro
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #14 - April 04, 2010, 04:42 PM
    @ @li
    Apparently, your muslim friend and the sheikh both don't know much about viruses and their genomes. Tongue
    I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
    In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
    Can't it be, can't it be mine

    https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #15 - April 04, 2010, 04:43 PM
    Hey Moe, Since you're an arabic speaker I have a question

    This is the verse which says 'we've made everything in pairs'
    وَمِن كُلِّ شَيْءٍ خَلَقْنَا زَوْجَيْنِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَذَكَّرُونَ

    the word used for 'pairs' here is zojain ( زَوْجَيْنِ)

    Now in urdu, which shares many words from arabic, derivatives of this word like 'zojah' (wife), azdawaji (marital) etc are used, and as an urdu speaker I think there is no possibility that this word (zojain) can be used in any other context than to speak of males/females or married couples. what's your opinion?
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #16 - April 04, 2010, 05:09 PM
    well zowj actually means 'pair'
    for example : زوج من الأحذية
    "zowj min al ahziya"
    Which means "a pair of shoes"
    so it's the opposite way around. The word zojah (as in 'wife') came from the word that means 'pair'. A married couple is a 'pair'.
    I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
    In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
    Can't it be, can't it be mine

    https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #17 - April 04, 2010, 05:19 PM
    So this word zawjain can be used in the context of non marital / non-male/female pairs?
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #18 - April 04, 2010, 05:32 PM
    yuppers yes
    I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
    In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
    Can't it be, can't it be mine

    https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #19 - April 04, 2010, 05:34 PM
    but as for the verse, it talks about pairing in living things.
    I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
    In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
    Can't it be, can't it be mine

    https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #20 - April 04, 2010, 06:12 PM
    All rightie Smiley Thanks for clearing that up
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #21 - April 04, 2010, 07:22 PM
    Now ask your friend's sheikh what he makes of isomeric bi-radial symmetry in both living and non living things. Are they pairs or not, and why so?
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #22 - April 04, 2010, 07:47 PM
    Quote from: sojournerlumus on April 04, 2010, 07:22 PM
    Now ask your friend's sheikh what he makes of isomeric bi-radial symmetry in both living and non living things. Are they pairs or not, and why so?


    Dare I ask what that is?  Huh?
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #23 - April 04, 2010, 09:41 PM
    Prokaryotes have no cell nucleus and no chromosomes
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #24 - April 06, 2010, 08:33 AM
    Quote from: HorrorVacui on April 04, 2010, 09:41 PM
    Prokaryotes have no cell nucleus and no chromosomes


    But they do have DNA?

    The Muslim guy obviously didn't know the difference between a DNA helix and a chromosome.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #25 - April 08, 2010, 04:20 PM
    The verse should be interpreted as referring to base pairing in DNA. Chemically, DNA consists of two long polymers of simple units called nucleotides, with backbones made of sugars and phosphate  groups joined by ester bonds. These two strands run in opposite directions to each other and are therefore anti-parallel.

    The structure of part of a DNA double helix
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #26 - April 08, 2010, 05:30 PM
    Quote from: JustTheFacts on April 08, 2010, 04:20 PM
    The verse should be interpreted as referring to base pairing in DNA. Chemically, DNA consists of two long polymers of simple units called nucleotides, with backbones made of sugars and phosphate  groups joined by ester bonds. These two strands run in opposite directions to each other and are therefore anti-parallel.

    The structure of part of a DNA double helix
    (Clicky for piccy!)


    But as I said, this would be created OF or FROM pairs, it would not be created IN pairs.  Quite simply, it means male/female because Muhammad was unaware of non-sexual reproduction.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #27 - April 08, 2010, 06:10 PM
    I don't know how important the Tafsirs are, but here is one for 51:49.

    Tafsir al-Jalalayn
    And of all things (wa-min kulli shay’in is semantically connected to His [following] words khalaqnā) We created pairs, two kinds, such as male and female, heaven and earth, sun and moon, plain and mountain, summer and winter, sweet and bitter, light and darkness, that perhaps you might remember (tadhakkarūna: one of the two original tā’ letters [of tatadhakkarūna] has been omitted), and hence realise that the Creator of pairs is [Himself] Singular, that you might then worship him.

    I personally think it refers to animals having two sexes. Of course as they later found asexual animals (see link) this couldn't possibly be what the infallible creator of the Universe meant, so they had to find something else.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnemidophorus

    There is also a small organism that doesn't have (it's own) DNA.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bdelloidea
    Bukhari 62:142 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:
       The Prophet used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives.
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #28 - April 08, 2010, 09:41 PM
    Quote from: TheLastKnight on April 08, 2010, 06:10 PM
    I personally think it refers to animals having two sexes. Of course as they later found asexual animals (see link) this couldn't possibly be what the infallible creator of the Universe meant, so they had to find something else.


    It's obvious that the author of the Quran believed the Earth was flat and that everything in the universe orbited it - and that everything would come to an end one day when the Moon would crash into the Sun.

    If you assume the most simple explanation for words in the Quran suddenly everything within it matches the inaccurate beliefs commonly held at the time.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Chromosomes in quran?
     Reply #29 - April 10, 2010, 07:12 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on April 06, 2010, 08:33 AM
    But they do have DNA?

    Yes, a single loop of DNA, free in the cytoplasm

    Quote
    The Muslim guy obviously didn't know the difference between a DNA helix and a chromosome.

    So how can he know to what the Qur'an refers then?
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