Women

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Re: Women
Reply #30 - April 08, 2010, 02:04 AM

Absolutely *no* apologies here. That was a joke, and if you can't take it then that's your problem. Not mine.

@Manat
Go fuck yourself. You're a preachy, self righteous, angry, bitter, feminist ideologue and I'd rather jerk myself off with sand paper before I give a miserable woman like yourself a fucking inch. And when I said 'go fuck yourself', I mean it literally. Get a dildo or something. You need it. Bad. Okay.. now <that's sexist!

@admins
The above is a known as a personal attack - AKA 'flame'. I am at 2 smites. Lets add another one and be done with this bullshit.

Good bye. Nice chatting with you all. Much love.

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Re: Women
Reply #31 - April 08, 2010, 02:06 AM

Gotta love that e-drama.

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Re: Women
Reply #32 - April 08, 2010, 02:25 AM

Just when I thought we got rid of the massive troll attack and the forum would get back to normal !!!

Is it all because of one member Iblis? I mean if you know you're right why give a fuck? why work yourself up on it and lose everyone else even those who liked you and respected you?

I have say I am absolutely stunned. I never thought you would cross the line.
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Re: Women
Reply #33 - April 08, 2010, 02:31 AM

I have been reading this website for sometime now and some members make jokes which are misconstrued as being misogynistic, to state that this website is swimming in misogyny is a gross exaggeration of the facts.

Manat is having difficulties dealing with some of her lingering previous experiences I think she needs to address those then the misconstrued misogyny she has witnessed. One can equally make the argument that Manats post is somewhat misandrist in tone.
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Re: Women
Reply #34 - April 08, 2010, 02:43 AM

Quote from: Iblis on April 08, 2010, 02:04 AM
Absolutely *no* apologies here. That was a joke, and if you can't take it then that's your problem. Not mine.

@Manat
Go fuck yourself. You're a preachy, self righteous, angry, bitter, feminist ideologue and I'd rather jerk myself off with sand paper before I give a miserable woman like yourself a fucking inch. And when I said 'go fuck yourself', I mean it literally. Get a dildo or something. You need it. Bad. Okay.. now <that's sexist!

@admins
The above is a known as a personal attack - AKA 'flame'. I am at 2 smites. Lets add another one and be done with this bullshit.

Good bye. Nice chatting with you all. Much love.

I saw it coming.
You need to chillax dude, but I guess I am too late now. Anyways, I hope it doesn't get worse than this. We've had enough drama with the trolls at FFI.

Quote from: JustTheFacts on April 08, 2010, 02:31 AM
I have been reading this website for sometime now and some members make jokes which are misconstrued as being misogynistic, to state that this website is swimming in misogyny is a gross exaggeration of the facts.

Manat is having difficulties dealing with some of her lingering previous experiences I think she needs to address those then the misconstrued misogyny she has witnessed. One can equally make the argument that Manats post is somewhat misandrist in tone.

Who are you?

"In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan
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Re: Women
Reply #35 - April 08, 2010, 03:06 AM

I always thought that the freedom from religion means the freedom from sexual oppression in multiple senses of the word. There is the obvious inequality of sexes but there is a general " covering up" of sexual urges and desires that goes on religion that pretends that men and women either don't have sexual urges or that these urges should be hidden.

Frankly, I think the beauty of the freedom is the recognition that we all have sexual desires and urges and we should be able to express them. Yes men AND women have dirty nasty sexual thoughts, yes men and women usually bitch and objectify the opposite sex, BUT with this freedom we can recognize that we are not helpless animals who need some invisible entity or shame or "impurity" to control us. We are perfectly capable of self censorship of our own desires, urges, language and viewpoints. We are capable of accommodation and if necessary change.

The issue isn't covering up or shaming or anything else. It is open, honest, frank discussion between everyone on what their sexual and social views are. Only in this way can the most benefit come from the human experience.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: Women
Reply #36 - April 08, 2010, 03:15 AM

Quote from: Infidel on April 08, 2010, 02:43 AM
Who are you?

Sorry I don't understand?
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Re: Women
Reply #37 - April 08, 2010, 03:20 AM

Quote from: JustTheFacts on April 08, 2010, 03:15 AM
Sorry I don't understand?

Sorry, I just under-read your post and misunderstood it.
Welcome to the site

Perhaps I should have phrased it as: "Mind telling us a bit about yourself?"

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Re: Women
Reply #38 - April 08, 2010, 03:33 AM

Nooo, don't ban iblis! Was he banned?

I don't get all the drama here. Who made misgonyst comments? Can someone enlighten me
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Re: Women
Reply #39 - April 08, 2010, 03:37 AM

Quote from: Infidel on April 08, 2010, 03:20 AM
Sorry, I just under-read your post and misunderstood it.
Welcome to the site

Perhaps I should have phrased it as: "Mind telling us a bit about yourself?"

That is fine. I am not too comfortable stating my life story or personal information about me. I feel it detracts from a persons posts, and also gives potential fuel to adversaries to attack you with. I just prefer to be in the background, like a gnome.
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Re: Women
Reply #40 - April 08, 2010, 04:47 AM

Quote from: PeruvianSkies on April 07, 2010, 09:34 PM
Agreed. Please don't think about leaving Manat. Your opinions are highly valued here and so are you.

No no I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I *was* thinking about leaving about six weeks, two months ago because of the frat house atmosphere - and if I'm the only one who's going to say it on the board, so be it. It's my participation that I'm talking about primarily (therefore my own comfort level here is my concern), as well as some of the concerns I have about how this forum could be perceived by both those we want to support and those who would use our stuff against us (as happens all the time, of course).

Then instead, I decided to hang around a bit, and became a moderator when I was asked to. Although I wasn't thinking about leaving, I'm not sure now. I have the time for it - right now I do - but I'm wondering if I want to put up with it.

(sorry edited b/c i post as i read instead of reading entire threads and *then* posting).

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Re: Women
Reply #41 - April 08, 2010, 04:51 AM

Quote from: Heyjustlooking on April 07, 2010, 09:43 PM
I appreciate what you're saying Manat but what crap are you referring to which you deem sexist or offensive in some way?

Do you want to mention anyone by name who you feel has been making unsuitable comments?

I got a feeling I know who you're talking about but I won't say just in case.

No, I didn't post this to call someone out of their name. That's not what this was about. That *included* Iblis, who decided on his own that this was all about him -- which it most certainly was not. I don't know that I can drag out any specific posts ATM -- it's more of a general atmosphere. (Although, in edit, I will say that yes, his post about being a gigolo for fat women was both sexist and sizeist and I don't give a fuck if it was "just a joke" he got off of a cartoon show known for being offensive. "Just a joke" is always the last refuge of someone spouting off homophobia, sexism, racism, etc. Oh and hey, his blatantly misogynistic personal attack against me, which I notice got everyone up in arms...)

This is some thoughts I have been having about the forum for *months* now, not just today or since last week. Like I said, it's my thoughts. I'm not the one who wants to get involved in forum drama - I'm really not - but I have noticed that other people don't feel a hesitation to post their thoughts on particular individuals or things being posted, and I decided to do the same.

(edited b/c i read the thread and am fixing it to be in that context).

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Re: Women
Reply #42 - April 08, 2010, 04:57 AM

Quote from: Heyjustlooking on April 07, 2010, 09:59 PM
I got the impression from the OP, that Manat was saying that when you leave religion, some feel more inclined to be disprespectful.

No, that they feel freer to express it in coarse language. The language of Muslims regarding "women's dignity" is a double talk - we all know that... and so that language is really useless or meaningless to some of us. I wouldn't use that rhetoric myself when speaking of women. I notice that ex-Muslims, when speaking about women in a general sense, tend to speak of women in terms of human rights, but you don't hear a lot of that "as a society we must give women dignity and protection" shit, even if people do believe that, for example, society needs to enact stronger anti-rape or DV laws.

We all know that if you start talking about porn stars or ho-bags or whatever in the general Muslim setting, an auntie or uncle is going to smack you upside the head for it. Even if they themselves have sexist views. To engage in the sort of talk that perhaps others in one's peer group engage in , or seem to, can feel like one of the things that you're now liberated (from Islam) to do.

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Re: Women
Reply #43 - April 08, 2010, 05:00 AM

Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on April 07, 2010, 10:09 PM
I mean if someone posted a racist comment would you not say anything?

Therein lies the rub. Blatantly racist speech is pretty much taboo in our culture. Misogynistic or sexist speech isn't. Certainly homophobic speech isn't.

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Re: Women
Reply #44 - April 08, 2010, 05:04 AM

Quote from: PeruvianSkies on April 07, 2010, 10:27 PM
Completely understand your feelings for misandrism, it bothers me that this side is ignored too. Though this is a pattern found everywhere and not just here.

I wouldn't even begin to equate the "men are dumb" type jokes and comments here with the sexism and the onslaught of "boys club" porn shit that has been going on because in a patriarchal culture - which our culture is - the two are nowhere near being the same. It might be wrong - yes - but it's not the same thing at all. It's like comparing the disdain of some gays for "breeders" with the homophobia of the general society. Both are wrong, but we know that they're not the same thing at all.

Also, if not clear - I didn't post this "as a mod." I posted it as a member.

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Re: Women
Reply #45 - April 08, 2010, 05:30 AM

Quote from: JustTheFacts on April 08, 2010, 02:31 AM
One can equally make the argument that Manats post is somewhat misandrist in tone.

LOL. I never railed against men, nor did I say the problem was with male posters. I just compared the atmosphere to a frat house.

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Re: Women
Reply #46 - April 08, 2010, 05:34 AM

Is Iblis really banned Manat?

I did think he go overboard, but I hope he isn't banned.

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Re: Women
Reply #47 - April 08, 2010, 05:50 AM

Quote from: Cool Canadian on April 08, 2010, 05:34 AM
Is Iblis really banned Manat?

I did think he go overboard, but I hope he isn't banned.

I doubt he is. If I wasn't banned for pulling the TommyGate, I doubt Iblis will be banned for this.

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Re: Women
Reply #48 - April 08, 2010, 05:54 AM

Quote from: Cool Canadian on April 08, 2010, 05:34 AM
Is Iblis really banned Manat?

I did think he go overboard, but I hope he isn't banned.

I don't know. I'm a (new) moderator, not an administrator. Moderators do not ban people. Iblis has apparently been warned about his behavior in the past by the administrators and seems to expect that the next step would be a ban. I don't know the history of his interactions with the staff or even with other members. To ban him or not ban him is not my decision - I want that to be very clear.

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Re: Women
Reply #49 - April 08, 2010, 05:56 AM

Quote from: Manat on April 08, 2010, 05:54 AM
I don't know. I'm a (new) moderator, not an administrator. Moderators do not ban people. Iblis has apparently been warned about his behavior in the past by the administrators and seems to expect that the next step would be a ban. I don't know the history of his interactions with the staff or even with other members. To ban him or not ban him is not my decision - I want that to be very clear.

Gotcha

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Re: Women
Reply #50 - April 08, 2010, 08:13 AM

Quote from: The Ass Patter on April 08, 2010, 05:50 AM
I doubt he is. If I wasn't banned for pulling the TommyGate, I doubt Iblis will be banned for this.

Iblis is not bulletproof. The staff will be discussing this.

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Re: Women
Reply #51 - April 08, 2010, 08:19 AM

Quote from: JustTheFacts on April 08, 2010, 02:31 AM
I have been reading this website for sometime now and some members make jokes which are misconstrued as being misogynistic, to state that this website is swimming in misogyny is a gross exaggeration of the facts.

Manat is having difficulties dealing with some of her lingering previous experiences I think she needs to address those then the misconstrued misogyny she has witnessed. One can equally make the argument that Manats post is somewhat misandrist in tone.

I see. Since you are apparently an expert on her difficulties, and no doubt have an appropriate degree in psychoanalysis, perhaps you could enlighten us about the relevant problems.

For the record, I didn't regard her OP as at all misandrist and I'm a heterosexual male. I'll also state that what prompted her to let off steam was that when she joined the staff yesterday we already had a discussion in progress about this issue. It isn't just Manat who thinks the frat house atmosphere is over the top. It's the whole damned staff, including me.

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Re: Women
Reply #52 - April 08, 2010, 09:21 AM

Quote from: Mixu Paatelainen on April 07, 2010, 09:29 PM
Anyway, I'm not gonna lie - I have found the use of words such as hoe, slut, fag, slag (unless slag is being used in "the sweeney" sense of the word) rather uncomfortable. These are offensive words which are as offensive as nigger, and i don't think there is any real need for it.

Yes. I always found no reason for using such words. Leaving Islam or any religion not necessary give you the right to start offending others. The forum is being visited by all kind of people, so maybe we should remember that there might be some members who don't like hearing excessive swearing and cussing.

Quote from: RIBS on April 07, 2010, 08:29 PM
Good post Manat. Totally agree. Respecting others is a must, not a choice!

I still think Manat's OP is well said and we should respect her views.

Quote from: Tlaloc on April 07, 2010, 10:22 PM
I agree with Manat.
For example, I find a little disturbing how many guys on these forums feel the need to mention that they find ZOMGitsCriss hot.
On the other hand, I also see misandrist jokes, and usually nobody gives a shit about those, not even "feminist women".

I guess I am bothered by any form of sexism, cause I have an unhealthy aversion for it ^_^

And for ZOMGitsCriss, can't you see that she is really ~~hot~~ attractive? Can't you see that? .....

Criss, if you are reading this.... I meant it as a compliment and not anything else

...
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Re: Women
Reply #53 - April 08, 2010, 09:49 AM

Quote from: Manat on April 08, 2010, 04:51 AM
(Although, in edit, I will say that yes, his post about being a gigolo for fat women was both sexist and sizeist and I don't give a fuck if it was "just a joke"

Oh come on now, give me a break. There's no such thing as 'sizeist' and I hope this forum won't turn into the abyss of political correctness. If someone is fat - they need to join a gym and lose their weight instead of complaining if others make jokes about fat people in general - not even directed at them.

Seriously, this is getting ridiculous and seriously trampling on the free speech record of this forum if any action is taken based on this.
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Re: Women
Reply #54 - April 08, 2010, 09:56 AM

Quote from: Manat on April 08, 2010, 04:51 AM
This is some thoughts I have been having about the forum for *months* now, not just today or since last week. Like I said, it's my thoughts. I'm not the one who wants to get involved in forum drama - I'm really not - but I have noticed that other people don't feel a hesitation to post their thoughts on particular individuals or things being posted, and I decided to do the same.

No offense but you're being a drama queen here. If you want to leave, just leave. No need to make a lot of posts saying 'oh i don't know, i can stay but i'm not sure if i should, etc'. This makes it seem like you're pretty much just after attention.
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Re: Women
Reply #55 - April 08, 2010, 10:20 AM

Quote from: @li on April 08, 2010, 09:49 AM
Oh come on now, give me a break. There's no such thing as 'sizeist' and I hope this forum won't turn into the abyss of political correctness. If someone is fat - they need to join a gym and lose their weight instead of complaining if others make jokes about fat people in general - not even directed at them.

I detect a logical fallacy.

If there were no discrimination by size, then what do the jokes about fat people represent?
They are being ridiculed because being fat is considered a bad thing by the joke teller.

Then why should the onus be on the fat person?
If they hated being fat regardless of the jokes, then I agree they should try and lose weight instead of complaining.
But for those who would like being fat or would not mind being fat if it were not for the ridicule they are subject to... why should they have to either deal with being the subject of jokes or stop being fat?

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Re: Women
Reply #56 - April 08, 2010, 10:45 AM

If there was such rampant sexim or misogny on this board then I would be joining in with Manats post and denouncing it but I dont see such a level of it on here to merit the severity of the post. Having said that I dont read every category on the forum so maybe I missed it.
One thing Im puzzled with though Manat. If you are so tuned in to misogynist behaviour, and I agree joking is used sometimes to disguise underlying truths about the persons attitude, then why the avatar? I dont see anything bad in it , in fact I think it is great , however it doesnt compute with the level you are sensitive to sexism. Is it the same that Jews can make jokes about Jews and the Irish about the Irish etc but if someone else does it is automatically deemd rascist ?
I dont think your avatar is in anyway sexist , in fact I think it makes a great point, its just that if your sexism radar is set to such a high level it just strikes me an odd choice of avatar.

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Re: Women
Reply #57 - April 08, 2010, 11:00 AM

It is unfortunate to see Iblis go, if he really is gone.
In the open and brave spirit of this thread I would also like to raise an opinion: the cosmos is far too grand and beautiful and important to be taken seriously

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Re: Women
Reply #58 - April 08, 2010, 11:07 AM

Quote from: Manat on April 08, 2010, 04:51 AM
... if it was "just a joke" he got off of a cartoon show known for being offensive.

Family guy is undoubtedly offensive to some but does this mean that you personally find it offensive?
Also do you think that watching cartoons is immature or “wrong” in some way?
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Re: Women
Reply #59 - April 08, 2010, 11:10 AM

Quote from: z10 on April 08, 2010, 11:00 AM
It is unfortunate to see Iblis go, if he really is gone.
In the open and brave spirit of this thread I would also like to raise an opinion: the cosmos is far too grand and beautiful and important to be taken seriously

Seconded. Iblis is a good guy. As I said before, the internet is a treacherous place for misunderstanding tenor and tone and humour sometimes, wires can get crossed, and things can be taken out of turn. Iblis is not a misogynist, he just has a quick tongue and the worst that can be said for him is he doesn't filter enough sometimes. I hope he comes back after a while.

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