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Theme Changer

 Topic: Why is there something rather than nothing?

 (Read 19200 times)
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  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #90 - February 07, 2015, 10:02 AM

    (As a matter of interest, is it more blasphemous for me to have used the term "allah" above instead of "god"?)

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #91 - February 07, 2015, 10:11 AM

    Isn't "nothing" logically impossible?  By proposing it hasn't it been created?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #92 - February 07, 2015, 10:44 AM

    Quote from: qtian
    Apologists are very quick to talk about logical possibilities, I'd like to argue that the notion of something coming from absolute nothing is a logical impossibility. Similar to a square circle... it is not coherent, I can't even envisage it.


    Quote from: qtian
    Something coming from nothing assumes "absolute nothing" to be a normal, or a real state of affairs, but everything we know of comes from pre-existing material.


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #93 - February 07, 2015, 10:57 AM

    As a side note, I have problem with the title of Lawrence Krauss' book : " A Universe from Nothing".

    What part of "nothing" does he not understand?

    Conveniently redefining a preexisting state of quantum foam as "nothing" doesn't show that the universe came from nothing.

    Could he not have titled the book "A Universe from my basic inability to grasp the English language"?

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #94 - February 07, 2015, 11:07 AM

    Atheist featherweight Jerry Coyne -- slammed Krauss’s amateurish foray into philosophy.  Here’s some take-to-the-bank advice to would-be atheist provocateurs: When even Jerry Coyne thinks your attempt at atheist apologetics “mediocre,” it’s time to throw in the towel.  Causa finita est.  Game over.  Shut the hell up already. 


    LOL

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #95 - February 07, 2015, 11:24 AM

    Quote
    It’s easy to get tricked into thinking that simplicity is somehow preferable. After all, Occam’s Razor exhorts us to stick to simple explanations. But that’s a way to compare different explanations that equivalently account for the same sets of facts; comparing different sets of possible underlying rules for the universe is a different kettle of fish entirely. And, to be honest, it’s true that most working physicists have a hope (or a prejudice) that the principles underlying our universe are in fact pretty simple. But that’s simply an expression of our selfish desire, not a philosophical precondition on the space of possible universes. When it comes to the actual universe, ultimately we’ll just have to take what we get.


    This is not correct. It is not simplistic, simple or any of the above but economic. The words are similar but a simple explanation is not always economic. This quote directly shows how a misunderstanding creates such a situation in which "God did it" is the simplistic explanation. Such a misunderstand that the author makes. Using economic identifies the "waste" produced by the "God did it" claim. The waste being unanswered questions regarding God and how God in fact "did it" If one sticks to "simple" then merely repeating "God did it" or theological views to answer all question becomes the simple answer.   
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #96 - February 07, 2015, 12:13 PM

    What Sean Carroll is saying is that whilst OR is a useful heuristic, it should never be the final arbiter with regards to a (scientific) theory.

    The idea of OR is that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions and equal explanatory power should be chosen, which is what "simplicity" (parsimony) means in this case, it's not a dictionary definition of the word as it is related to hypothesis testing.  In this case, the "waste" would be the extra assumptions required to support "God did it".  So I fail to see how it is not correct, as the dictionary definition of simplistic is a straw man of what it means within the context of hypothesis testing.

    What SC is saying is that when push comes to shove, we can throw OR out of the window if needed.



    We value explanatory power -> The ability of a hypothesis to explain phenomena

    and parsimony -> how many assumptions a hypothesis makes, an assumption can still be complex but only when justifiable and necessary.


    Let's say that we have two theories, A and B.

    A explains C,D,E,F and B explains C,D,E,F.

    A makes assumptions G,H,I,J and B makes assumptions G,H,I,J,K.


    Parsimony would then claim that A is more likely (or the better choice). The reasoning behind this would be that A explains the same amount of phenomena as B, but entails less.


    Now, let's look at theories L and M.

    L explains N,O,P whilst M explains N,O,P,Q

    L makes assumptions R,S,T,U  whilst M makes assumptions R,S,T,U

    According to explanatory power, we should pick the theory which explains more phenomena. Explanatory power would claim that M is more likely.

    Quote
    This quote directly shows how a misunderstanding creates such a situation in which "God did it" is the simplistic explanation


    Why would "God did it" be a simpler explanation?

    "God did" it entails everything we know + the auxiliary of supernaturalism. An alternative hypothesis such as naturalism only entails a closed system. Especially in the case of theism, theism is a specific instance of supernaturalism (basic set theory). Theism therefore makes more assumptions than specified naturalism, even if we assume that supernaturalism & naturalism are symmetrical from the outset.

    Given all of that, a proper reading of parsimony shouldn't make "God did it" simpler.

    OR only favours "God did it"  if your interpretation of explanatory power is prior (what "God did it" purports to explain instead of what it actually explains). I disagree with this view as my interpretation of explanatory power is posterior (What "God did it" actually explains). Given the data that we have, "God did it" pretty much fails in explanatory terms.

    So "God did it" does not have equal explanatory power against a competing hypothesis such as naturalism. Therefore, even if it is "simpler" (which I doubt as it entails supernaturalism), OR could not imply "God did it" over naturalism in light of relevant observations.


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #97 - February 07, 2015, 12:46 PM

    A key feature is necessity.

    If we can explain more from a naturalistic framework, why do we need to necessarily invoke "God did it"?
    Why should we give it a level playing field, by entertaining it in the form of OR?

    My thoughts are that theories such as "God did it" aren't even subject to Occam's Razor. Until one can actually demonstrate the explanatory value of "God did it" against something such as "unidentified process X", they are begging the question.

    After all, "God did it" is an ever receding theory. As we discover more, the fruitfulness of "God did it" as a model begins to evaporate.

    On balance, I wouldn't' even consider intellectual cop outs in terms of parsimony and explanatory power.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #98 - February 07, 2015, 01:01 PM

    I realize your point and accept it. The issue is with the quote itself and the language used. Often when experts are talking to laymen we need to reduce the use of terminology inside a field for the benefit for laymen. This is common in every popular publication for the masses and lower tiers of education. We need to use a language both laymen and experts have in common in order to communicate ideas. Unfortunately the use of the layman's language with minimum technical jargon as the standard used the majority of the time. So when one say "simple" we are not using the technical terminology but the layman's simple. Simple to them is the answer which covers every aspect of a question and is easy to understand. God with the 3 big omni is capable of anything logically possible. Any answer naturalism provides a theist can ask why or how, find us unable to answer, propose God thus get their simple answer. Take evolution as an example. People do not like the unknown or I do not know as answers. First theists opposed it, now it is part of many religious view but not all. Those that accept evolution do so on the basis of evidence while also smuggling in a question which God can answer. A theist will ask how did life begin. We can provide a number of answers which can be accepted or rejected. A further question is asked, so on and so on. This is moving the goal posts and god of the gaps. However experts are the ones reducing their ideas to the lowest common denominator so we create this situation. This becomes worse when there is no secondary material for an explanation of terminology which has be "dumbed-down".

    Keep in mind I am not putting forward such thinking as my own but merely the thoughts of those that have no education in fields the concept of God can cover. I have seen theists link me what they thought were studies when in reality were blogs, newspapers and random websites making bold claims. In most cases the source had no links to formal reviewed studies nor research. Just baseless assertions made by a varieties of people which usually had no education in anything they talked about. If people can not understand what is a credible study or research paper in afield how can we expect people to understand our reduced terminology? The fact that my own simplified comment was misunderstood by you and required explanation shows that even an casual exchange between two which agree can be misunderstood.  Smiley

    This is not my field so I am forced to use what language I know. As a habit I do reduce my language to a standard most can understand. However if you look at my posts about the bible you will see I can be more technical.  At times I have had to explain basic linguistics to people which have no formal training which makes such a task almost impossible. Some explanations require so much work that I should be paid for my time. How do I begin to teach someone Egyptian hieroglyphs, Hebrew, Greek or various Assyrian based cuneiform enough so they can read it for themselves without my aid? Such is a dilemma between academia and the world.

    I think we had a fine explain of "language games" as per Ludwig Wittgenstein. Which I advice anyone and everyone should read and understand. 
     
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #99 - February 07, 2015, 01:08 PM

    Yes, I agree with that. Apologies if it came across as argumentative, I was just trying to elaborate my point as it's a habit. Given a proper understanding of OR, I don't see why "economic" is needed.

    However, if one isn't aware of what parsimony actually entails then misinterpretations can happen.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #100 - February 07, 2015, 01:52 PM

    Nothing is the absence of something and something is the absence of nothing. Before I was born there was nothing, now everything exists and sometimes I wonder if this everything will cease to exist once I die.
    There's something because there's nothing to not be something. But if nothing is something, then something is nothing.

    The small loops, within the bigger spiral in your last two sentences there, has my head spinning. That's a head-fuck, and my eyes have followed the words round and round, searching for the enlightenment that I know lies within there; but unfortunately I think that enlightenment has proven just beyond my grasp. I'll keep returning and trying though.

    Hi
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #101 - February 07, 2015, 02:03 PM

    Yes, I agree with that. Apologies if it came across as argumentative, I was just trying to elaborate my point as it's a habit. Given a proper understanding of OR, I don't see why "economic" is needed.

    However, if one isn't aware of what parsimony actually entails then misinterpretations can happen.


    Not argumentative at all. I had a good laugh at my expense since I did used the same method of communication I was criticizing.

    Economic is merely a reduced term for the methodology used and evaluation. Take your example of a noise in the house, footprints and foot size of the pets. The dog is ruled out due to footprint size thus is not as economical as the cat hypothesis. It is amusing that there are at least 2 reduced terms used as an oversimplified explanation of methodology. Method to economical to simple.   
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #102 - February 07, 2015, 02:07 PM

    I guess this is where another breakdown in communication could have occurred , since Economics was one of my fields of study, I tend to over think reductive usages of terms.

    "Economic, what does he mean, Is he talking about Pareto efficiency, productivity?"

    Those were my thoughts, lol.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #103 - February 07, 2015, 02:11 PM

    The small loops, within the bigger spiral in your last two sentences there, has my head spinning. That's a head-fuck, and my eyes have followed the words round and round, searching for the enlightenment that I know lies within there; but unfortunately I think that enlightenment has proven just beyond my grasp. I'll keep returning and trying though.


    It's solipsism which is one of the only views which can not be refuted and is easiest to defend. In other words "I exist", a basic belief My existence is self-evident. Everything else may not. So we are left with few options. Accept that reality exist external to self as an axiom or accept that you are a brain in vat as an axiom.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #104 - February 07, 2015, 02:15 PM

    I have noticed solipsists confusing "what there is" with "what we know about what there is". By claiming that since you can't know if anything else exists, you are the only thing that exists, you are confusing ontology with epistemology.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #105 - February 07, 2015, 02:17 PM

    I guess this is where another breakdown in communication could have occurred , since Economics was one of my fields of study, I tend to over think reductive usages of terms.

    "Economic, what does he mean, Is he talking about Pareto efficiency, productivity?"

    Those were my thoughts, lol.



    Yup, I admit my definition is one of the last used which also requires modification of associated terms used are used as an explanation. Think of efficiency as probability or explanatory power. Productive as results and predictability. Waste as unnecessary assumptions.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #106 - February 07, 2015, 02:19 PM

    Quote
    Think of efficiency as probability or explanatory power. Productive as results and predictability. Waste as unnecessary assumptions.


    Efficiency is a pretty loaded term, which many people aren't aware of.

    Now, another breakdown due to my second field (statistics).

    What type of probability, subjective, epistemic, empirical? Are we talking about : frequentist, bayesian or logical probability?

    I guess you and I should just stop communicating with one another, lol.


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #107 - February 07, 2015, 02:20 PM

    I have noticed solipsists confusing "what there is" with "what we know about what there is". By claiming that since you can't know if anything else exists, you are the only thing that exists, you are confusing ontology with epistemology.


    Yes it is often used as an ad hoc defense following the basic misunderstanding you point out.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #108 - February 07, 2015, 02:54 PM

    Musivore, you absolutely love reading this thread Tongue

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #109 - February 07, 2015, 03:10 PM

    Do not even monotheists accept the impossibility of nothing?  They do assert there is a god/allah who created everything ex nihilo (or did he use a bit of him/her,itself?)

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #110 - February 07, 2015, 03:14 PM

    That's an issue I have too.

    The "standard" Islamic narrative seems to affirm creation ex nihilo, which seems to be a metaphysical impossibility.
    Ex nihilo, nihil fit.

    As far as I can see, the only way out for the dawah boy is to drop the assumption that omnipotence is constrained by logical possibility, but this then opens the door to paradoxes of old.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #111 - February 07, 2015, 06:57 PM

    I hope this question is not taken too seriously by anyone. I only want to get everyone's honest opinion on the biggest question of all (at least to me). Be brave, be open, dare to speculate. No answer is too silly. Do not be afraid of sounding dogmatic for no theory is ever completely certain.
    I know that you all have well-honed skills of analysis and reduction but for now, let your imagination loose. Let us speak like two old friends on a park bench on a leafy spring morning.
    Tell me, what does your heart tell you about the universe? What really is it all about?  Smiley




    Why not?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #112 - February 07, 2015, 07:02 PM

    ^


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #113 - February 07, 2015, 07:21 PM

    Zackly. The question is predicated on the assumption that having something really is an awful lot of bother, and it'd be much easier to just stick with nothing, because y'know making universes and stuff is bloody hard work.

    This is a purely anthropocentric way of looking at the whole thing, since the average ape finds constructing a universe on Sunday afternoon to be quite a daunting prospect. Obviously though, it's not the case for whatever does construct universes. For all we know, having a universe may well be a lot easier than not having one.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #114 - February 07, 2015, 07:24 PM

    There is only way to achieve absolute nothing (the absence of everything, no clue wtf that means though), there are many ways to achieve something.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #115 - February 07, 2015, 07:32 PM

    Right, and I don't mean to be abrasive or something, but being that there is in fact something, and not nothing questions about why seem to be pretty stupid, unless they are also coupled with answers to how. Current scientific consensus of how seems to end (begin) with the big bang, and why is a topic that only physicists could seem to really have access to.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #116 - February 07, 2015, 07:34 PM

    I've already argued that "something from nothing" questions make no sense.
    You're asking how you get spatio-temporality from a state which lacks both of those properties, it's just a semantic game.

    Still fun.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #117 - February 07, 2015, 07:35 PM

    It's interesting, but as Asbie says the "how" is the important bit. Otherwise it's just wanking.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #118 - February 07, 2015, 07:37 PM

    I'd like to know "why", but I've come to realise that asking "why" in this context is the same as asking "qeyhrthyuhsuh?". It's a weird exercise in ontology to say the least.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Why is there something rather than nothing?
     Reply #119 - February 07, 2015, 07:40 PM

    Yup. I figured out a long time ago that whatever the answer is, it's quite likely to seem completely illogical to us. IOW, anyone who is looking for an "intellectually satisfying" answer is basically valuing their own ego over the reality.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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