Orientalism by Edward Said

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Orientalism by Edward Said
OP - April 20, 2010, 10:07 AM

I have never read the book so I was wondering what you guys think of the book and the concept. Is it any good and does it make much sense?

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #1 - April 20, 2010, 10:25 AM

This could be a very long thread indeed.

It has been one of the most influential, perhaps the most influential book in academia and the humanities and literary criticism of the last 40 years. He basically contests that 'Orientalism', the academic study of the orient, was, not nessecarily through design or deliberately, complicit in the colonial project. This was clear in the art of Europe, the novels, poetry and so on too - a process of 'essentiallising' and 'stereotyping' 'the East'. He pays particular focus on the Arab and Islamic world and ties it into how they are perpetual victims of the 'gaze' of imperialists, and have been turned by orientalists and artists into 'the other'. Even though the word hadn't been invented when he wrote it, it also feeds into the thesis of 'Islamophobia' that is peddled alot these days.

Its not that some of what he says does not have some merit, its that he overplays his hand, and his followers have overplayed their hands too. Ibn Warraq writes a critique of it that is fairly engaging, but there are others out there from a less polemical position who have taken issue with him too.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #2 - April 20, 2010, 10:27 AM

Quote from: Mixu Paatelainen on April 20, 2010, 10:07 AM
I have never read the book so I was wondering what you guys think of the book and the concept. Is it any good and does it make much sense?

He (Edward Said) is an opportunistic scumbag; read his stuff before the book and then read orientalism; it is a complete 180 in direction. He has single handily provided a dictionary of excuses to lazy fucks around the world as to why their country hasn't progressed forward - the forever blaming of the West for the ineptitude of certain countries not getting their act together.

What has the west stereotyped about the east? I'd love to hear the so-called stereotypes and clear cut argument how these stereotypes are incorrect. The horrible treatment of women - is that just an 'orientalist judgement of a different way of living" or is it actually calling for what it is, the horrible treatment of women?

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #3 - April 20, 2010, 10:33 AM

Here is an edited version of a longer article of Warraq's critique of 'Orientalism' by Edward Said:

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/2003/debunking-edward-said/

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #4 - April 20, 2010, 10:34 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on April 20, 2010, 10:27 AM
He (Edward Said) is an opportunistic scumbag

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #5 - April 20, 2010, 10:38 AM

Quote from: billy on April 20, 2010, 10:34 AM

Mate, read his writings before he wrote the book 'Orientalism' then come back and tell me it wasn't opportunism to deliberately write a book that would generate massive book sales. He threw intellectual honesty out the window in favour of making a name for himself.

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #6 - April 20, 2010, 10:39 AM

I've been on the fence about reading this book for years.

Think it's one of those books I'd rather get from the library as I don't think I want to spend the money on it.

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #7 - April 20, 2010, 10:40 AM

He wasn't a scumbag.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #8 - April 20, 2010, 10:47 AM

Quote from: Mixu Paatelainen on April 20, 2010, 10:07 AM
I have never read the book so I was wondering what you guys think of the book and the concept. Is it any good and does it make much sense?

It was a very important and definitely positive contribution. It is flawed, to be sure, as Said acknowledged. Having later understood how it came about later after reading it, I realise it's a shame it wasn't a project given more time. Still, it gives a good overview and criticism of many overall tendencies that are still very strong, maybe even stronger than they were back then - all the anti-Arab racism that's perfectly acceptable, not to mention all that stuff about demographics.

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #9 - April 20, 2010, 10:48 AM

Quote from: billy on April 20, 2010, 10:40 AM
He wasn't a scumbag.

He single handily provided over a billion people an excuse for not throwing off their backwards ways - "we're not backwards, its the evil west who doesn't understand us".

Yes, your acid throwing, women stoning, gay killing, sharia law promoting, public flogging celebrating, suicide bombing allahuakbar screaming fucks are backwards.

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #10 - April 20, 2010, 10:49 AM

Shut up, you haven't even read it.

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #11 - April 20, 2010, 10:51 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on April 20, 2010, 10:48 AM
He single handily provided over a billion people an excuse for not throwing off their backwards ways - "we're not backwards, its the evil west who doesn't understand us".

Yes, your acid throwing, women stoning, gay killing, sharia law promoting, public flogging celebrating, suicide bombing allahuakbar screaming fucks are backwards.

Why do you act like such a wretchedly hysterical troll sometimes?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #12 - April 20, 2010, 10:53 AM

Quote from: panoptic on April 20, 2010, 10:49 AM
Shut up, you haven't even read it.

I have and I have also read Ibn Warraq's critique of Orientalism (Defending the West).

Christ, I did a whole paper on the 'romanticisation of the other' and came out with an A- on it. So yes, I am knowledgeable of his work.

Again, read his writings before Orientalism.

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #13 - April 20, 2010, 10:58 AM

If that's so you can definitely do better than your first post(s).

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #14 - April 20, 2010, 11:01 AM

Quote from: panoptic on April 20, 2010, 10:58 AM
If that's so you can definitely do better than your first post(s).

Why waste a post that'll simply get ignored? I've made posts of reasonable quality and they were ignored - so why even try?

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #15 - April 20, 2010, 11:04 AM

You don't have to troll.

I'd say 40% of posts get ignored most of the time.

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #16 - April 20, 2010, 11:12 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on April 20, 2010, 11:01 AM
Why waste a post that'll simply get ignored? I've made posts of reasonable quality and they were ignored - so why even try?

Well, IIIII always read your posts Mr. Kaiwai.

I also watched your Youtube vids. Not bad, though I don't necessarily agree.

And as for Orientalism, I haven't read it. Something I'll have to do when I get the time.
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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #17 - April 20, 2010, 11:47 AM

So if anything, the book is at least important

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #18 - April 20, 2010, 11:55 AM

Another one is Maxime Rodinson's Europe and the Mystique of Islam.

It's a brief, more objective but less ambitious account of European knowledge of 'Islam/Near East'. Sorta pamphlet-sized.

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #19 - April 20, 2010, 12:00 PM

Quote from: Mixu Paatelainen on April 20, 2010, 11:47 AM
So if anything, the book is at least important.

I don't disagree; it is important, in the same way that Sayyid Qutb's writings are important along with Mein Kempf and Mao's little red book.

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #20 - April 20, 2010, 12:13 PM

Quote from: kaiwai on April 20, 2010, 11:01 AM
Why waste a post that'll simply get ignored? I've made posts of reasonable quality and they were ignored - so why even try?

So you are desperate for attention?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #21 - April 20, 2010, 12:14 PM

Quote from: kaiwai on April 20, 2010, 12:00 PM
I don't disagree; it is important, in the same way that Sayyid Qutb's writings are important along with Mein Kempf and Mao's little red book.

Yeah. Just like Hitler and Mao.

Utterly preposterous.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #22 - April 20, 2010, 12:16 PM

Quote from: kaiwai on April 20, 2010, 10:53 AM
So yes, I am knowledgeable of his work.

Uh huh.

Quote
Again, read his writings before Orientalism.

What about them?

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #23 - April 20, 2010, 12:21 PM

I'm reading one of Sayyid Qutb's books now.

Quite a good insight into the Islamist perspective.

It's interesting. A lot of these types seem to say the same thing. They're not evil people, nor are they imperialists, per se.

They genuinely believe that Islam's taking over the world and the imposing of shari'ah is actually in the best interests of all people.
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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #24 - April 20, 2010, 12:45 PM

Quote from: panoptic on April 20, 2010, 12:16 PM
Uh huh.

What about them?

The fact that Edward Said didn't always hold the views which he expressed in 'Orientalism'; that for many years he was fervently critical of the Muslim and developing world and their incessant blaming of the West for the woes of their countries. Hence what I would like to know is why, after years of holding one view does he do a complete 180? I can understand a minor adjustment over a period of years but 'Orientalism' was a dramatic turn from one position to the opposite position.

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #25 - April 20, 2010, 12:59 PM

Quote from: kaiwai on April 20, 2010, 12:45 PM
The fact that Edward Said didn't always hold the views which he expressed in 'Orientalism'; that for many years he was fervently critical of the Muslim and developing world and their incessant blaming of the West for the woes of their countries.

Oh yeah? Like when?

Which prior work to Orientalism are you referring to?

Because neither contain what you say they do in the above...

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #26 - April 20, 2010, 01:05 PM

Quote
The fact that Edward Said didn't always hold the views which he expressed in 'Orientalism'; that for many years he was fervently critical of the Muslim and developing world and their incessant blaming of the West for the woes of their countries.

where did you get that dear kaiwai? Was he critical of Muslims? or was he critical of Islam?? And what kind of Muslims are you talking?? You mean Muslim rulers?

Well he was bluntly against Israel with time he changed that to criticize any one who supported the existene of Israel including Muslim kings.. rulers and he also did that to Arafat also as Israelis expanded their territories after that stupid war by Muslim rulers that are surrounding Israel

I don't think he ever wrote anything criticizing Muhammad and his Islam .. Let me know if you have read anything on that from Edward Said ..

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #27 - April 20, 2010, 01:08 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on April 20, 2010, 01:05 PM
where did you get that dear kaiwai? Was he critical of Muslims? or was he critical of Islam?? And what kind of Muslims are you talking?? You mean Muslim rulers?

Well he was bluntly against Israel with time he changed that to criticize amy one supported the existence of Israel including Muslim kings.. rulers and he also did that to Arafat..

He was a critic of anti-Semitic tendencies and 'occidentalism' (stereotyping of European and American societies, not understanding them properly etc..).

But that was for years after he wrote Orientalism.

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Re: Orientalism by Edward Said
Reply #28 - March 04, 2011, 05:07 PM

not my cup of tea, but for anyone keen on the history of orientalism (promoting this for a youtube comrade)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgLO04O0lpo

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