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Theme Changer

 Topic: Come back to Allah

 (Read 64973 times)
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  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #120 - May 04, 2010, 02:57 PM

    I heard that's not actually true. That is, that there were pre-Islamic Arabic grammarians who formalised, to some extent, Arabic grammar.


    I think what Zakir Naik is saying is that if Allah uses grammar in such and such a way then it must be correct. Therefore, the claim that the Qur'an has made a grammatical error is refuted. Therefore, the Qur'an is grammatically perfect and must have come from Allah. Circular argument.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #121 - May 04, 2010, 03:08 PM

    What's annoying about that reply by Naik is he didn't even address the specific question. What reason does it say Sabi'oon when it should say Sabi'een.

    I have no doubt he doesn't know and that's why he resorts to "There can be no mistakes because the Qur'an is perfect and as such is the basis of grammar!"

    It's like saying the Cockney dialect is perfect according to the Cockney dialect.

    There is no objective basis for saying it's perfect! Any "mistake" is just explained as the "miraculous" nature of the Qur'an.

    However any objective person looking at the error I posted cannot fail to see there is something wrong there.

  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #122 - May 04, 2010, 04:24 PM

    thanks for the comprehensive explanation Hass - will be adding it to my future arsenal of arguments  Afro

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  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #123 - May 04, 2010, 04:41 PM

    What's annoying about that reply by Naik is he didn't even address the specific question. What reason does it say Sabi'oon when it should say Sabi'een.

    I have no doubt he doesn't know and that's why he resorts to "There can be no mistakes because the Qur'an is perfect and as such is the basis of grammar!"

    It's like saying the Cockney dialect is perfect according to the Cockney dialect.

    There is no objective basis for saying it's perfect! Any "mistake" is just explained as the "miraculous" nature of the Qur'an.

    However any objective person looking at the error I posted cannot fail to see there is something wrong there.




    I don't know too much about this sort of stuff (arabic language, grammar, poetry etc.) but i trust your explanations on these and it seems you make a strong case. however one major issue i still have is that each and every one of the passages of the Quran must have been recited over and over again - thousands of times by the companions of the Prophet as well as the Prophet himself - if there were things that were deemed to be errors, they would for sure have been recognised. but it seems there were no complaints about these errors at the time of the Prophet (and it seems no attempt to correct them), perhaps suggesting they may have not been considered 'errors' at all?

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #124 - May 04, 2010, 04:53 PM

    Well Ahmed, the first 2 links you sent me talked about Yusuf Estes's conversion, and the last link seems fishy to be honest. You said you would give me a video of it, but you gave me a suspicious link.

    You obviously do not know how to listen, and you can't answer basic questions. Stupid plonker

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #125 - May 04, 2010, 04:58 PM

    i just read the thread title again... and somehow an imaginary TV spot formed in my head...

    As if Allah was some kind of fast food restaurant or something... i even got a song with a melody in my head for the spot.

    "Come to Allah... lah lah... best food around halla." I dont know what that means.

    Weird.

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves." - from Goethes Faust
    "Only the wisest and the stupidest men never change." - Confuzios
    "there is no religion of peace, only people who are peaceful while being religious."
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #126 - May 04, 2010, 05:07 PM

    I don't know too much about this sort of stuff (arabic language, grammar, poetry etc.) but i trust your explanations on these and it seems you make a strong case. however one major issue i still have is that each and every one of the passages of the Quran must have been recited over and over again - thousands of times by the companions of the Prophet as well as the Prophet himself - if there were things that were deemed to be errors, they would for sure have been recognised. but it seems there were no complaints about these errors at the time of the Prophet (and it seems no attempt to correct them), perhaps suggesting they may have not been considered 'errors' at all?


    Fair point, but I think there maybe several reasons. One is that some may indeed have seen minor errors but their views have not be left for posterity. We know there were many who were not convinced by Muhammad's utterings and he had a long physical struggle to win Arabia over. Secondly they are minor errors and many probably never noticed (we are talking about a mostly illiterate people) or they either justified it in much the same way the later scholars did - as the mysterious ways of Allah - or were simply unconcerned. As it happens I believe they knew very well these were the words of Muhammad - albeit under divine inspiration - and it was only later generations that began to raise the Qur'an to the height of infallibility. In my opinion the reverence we have for the Qur'an today is far removed from the mentality of the people at the time. There are even several instances where companions wanted to change some things. Umar for example decided to abolish the spoils allotted to the Muslims fighters saying it must now go to the Bayt-ul-Mal. In other words directly discarding a clear injunction of the Qur'an. (When I was still a Muslim and believed that Islam needed reforming I was convinced that we needed to return to that attitude of discarding anything that was no longer applicable and often cited the examples of early companions like Umar and Abu Bakr). Thirdly the very process of repeating something over and over again in faith and devotion makes the banal seem special.
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #127 - May 04, 2010, 05:16 PM

    interesting thoughts. out of curiosity, where did you do you PhD studies on Arabic language Dr Hassan. did you enjoy it? was there a specific topic?

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #128 - May 04, 2010, 05:27 PM

    interesting thoughts. out of curiosity, where did you do you PhD studies on Arabic language Dr Hassan. did you enjoy it? was there a specific topic?


    I never completed my Phd.

    I did one year at SOAS studying the tafseer of Zamashari. Forgotten the title I submitted - it was something like "The views of Zamakhsari regarding reason and revelation and how he was a both a staunch Mu'tazilite and yet a freethinker" or something on those lines.

    I suspended it after a year due to family problems with the full intention of finishing it - but never did.
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #129 - May 04, 2010, 05:30 PM

    Come back to Allah sounds like a love song "Come back to me love don't leave me here all alone"
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #130 - May 04, 2010, 05:33 PM

    Come back to Allah sounds like a love song "Come back to me love don't leave me here all alone"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgSEgwmF-JY
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #131 - May 04, 2010, 05:40 PM

     Cheesy
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #132 - May 04, 2010, 05:42 PM

    I never completed my Phd.

    I did one year at SOAS studying the tafseer of Zamashari. Forgotten the title I submitted - it was something like "The views of Zamakhsari regarding reason and revelation and how he was a both a staunch Mu'tazilite and yet a freethinker" or something on those lines.

    I suspended it after a year due to family problems with the full intention of finishing it - but never did.


    shame you didn't get to finish, although you would have considered it somewhat a waste of time now i guess.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #133 - May 04, 2010, 07:22 PM

    however one major issue i still have is that each and every one of the passages of the Quran must have been recited over and over again - thousands of times by the companions of the Prophet as well as the Prophet himself - if there were things that were deemed to be errors, they would for sure have been recognised. but it seems there were no complaints about these errors at the time of the Prophet (and it seems no attempt to correct them), perhaps suggesting they may have not been considered 'errors' at all?

    Isn't it possible that they were simply unwilling to question the authority of Muhammad (God, revelation)?

    Furthermore it was vital for Muhammad himself that everybody sticks with the initial version otherwise some might see alterations (even perfectly sensible grammatical ones) as proof that he is making it all up.
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #134 - May 04, 2010, 07:29 PM

    Here is a new video I found on YouTube, that is relevant for our friend Ahmed,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppk6MRVcCps

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #135 - May 04, 2010, 07:35 PM

    They believed he spoke with an angel without seeing any proof you really think they'd reflect over the grammar?

    Besides there was one dude who apostatized for this very reason, his scribe, and Muhammed wanted to kill him. But of course you won't believe this because you don't believe Hadiths and Tafsirs only when suitable, like this instance when you go "well they didn't seem to notice any errors."
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #136 - May 04, 2010, 08:33 PM

    Hassan, do you think this could be a copying error?

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  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #137 - May 04, 2010, 08:45 PM

    Fair point, but I think there maybe several reasons. One is that some may indeed have seen minor errors but their views have not be left for posterity. We know there were many who were not convinced by Muhammad's utterings and he had a long physical struggle to win Arabia over. Secondly they are minor errors and many probably never noticed (we are talking about a mostly illiterate people) or they either justified it in much the same way the later scholars did - as the mysterious ways of Allah - or were simply unconcerned. As it happens I believe they knew very well these were the words of Muhammad - albeit under divine inspiration - and it was only later generations that began to raise the Qur'an to the height of infallibility. In my opinion the reverence we have for the Qur'an today is far removed from the mentality of the people at the time. There are even several instances where companions wanted to change some things. Umar for example decided to abolish the spoils allotted to the Muslims fighters saying it must now go to the Bayt-ul-Mal. In other words directly discarding a clear injunction of the Qur'an. (When I was still a Muslim and believed that Islam needed reforming I was convinced that we needed to return to that attitude of discarding anything that was no longer applicable and often cited the examples of early companions like Umar and Abu Bakr). Thirdly the very process of repeating something over and over again in faith and devotion makes the banal seem special.



    Of course Umar knew the Quran was made up. He co-authored it.  Wink

    Volume 1, Book 8, Number 395:

    Narrated 'Umar (bin Al-Khattab):

    My Lord agreed with me in three things:

    1. I said,"O Allah's Apostle, I wish we took the station of Abraham as our praying place (for some of our prayers). So came the Divine Inspiration: And take you (people) the station of Abraham as a place of prayer (for some of your prayers e.g. two Rakat of Tawaf of Ka'ba)". (2.125)

    2. And as regards the (verse of) the veiling of the women, I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! I wish you ordered your wives to cover themselves from the men because good and bad ones talk to them.' So the verse of the veiling of the women was revealed.

    3. Once the wives of the Prophet made a united front against the Prophet and I said to them, 'It may be if he (the Prophet) divorced you, (all) that his Lord (Allah) will give him instead of you wives better than you.' So this verse (the same as I had said) was revealed." (66.5).
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #138 - May 04, 2010, 08:48 PM

    Hassan, do you think this could be a copying error?


    You mean an error of one of the scribes? Possible. Though less likely than it being Muhammad's own error imho as it would have been dictated and sabi'een sounds quite different from sabi'oon.

    But scribal error is almost certain to have occurred - whether here or elsewhere - it is frankly unreasonable to think it wouldn't have.
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #139 - May 04, 2010, 09:00 PM

    Of course Umar knew the Quran was made up. He co-authored it.  Wink

    Volume 1, Book 8, Number 395:

    Narrated 'Umar (bin Al-Khattab):

    My Lord agreed with me in three things:

    1. I said,"O Allah's Apostle, I wish we took the station of Abraham as our praying place (for some of our prayers). So came the Divine Inspiration: And take you (people) the station of Abraham as a place of prayer (for some of your prayers e.g. two Rakat of Tawaf of Ka'ba)". (2.125)

    2. And as regards the (verse of) the veiling of the women, I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! I wish you ordered your wives to cover themselves from the men because good and bad ones talk to them.' So the verse of the veiling of the women was revealed.

    3. Once the wives of the Prophet made a united front against the Prophet and I said to them, 'It may be if he (the Prophet) divorced you, (all) that his Lord (Allah) will give him instead of you wives better than you.' So this verse (the same as I had said) was revealed." (66.5).


    The way Muslims interpret this haidth is like, see guys Umar was sooo close to Allah that he knew what He "Allah" was gonna say.
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #140 - May 04, 2010, 09:11 PM

    The way Muslims interpret this haidth is like, see guys Umar was sooo close to Allah that he knew what He "Allah" was gonna say.



    And yet we can't not understand Allah lol

    Momo knew how to work people. It's that simple, the man understood people pretty damn well.
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #141 - May 04, 2010, 09:22 PM

    And yet we can't not understand Allah lol

    Momo knew how to work people. It's that simple, the man understood people pretty damn well.


    I think certain character types are naturally and subconsciously manipulative of others - and I believe Muhammad was in that category.
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #142 - May 04, 2010, 09:22 PM

    The way Muslims interpret this haidth is like, see guys Umar was sooo close to Allah that he knew what He "Allah" was gonna say.



    Yeah. It's pretty funny that Allah revealed some of the Qur'an to Umar before he revealed it even to Muhammad.

    The shahada should have Umar's name in it.
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #143 - May 04, 2010, 09:25 PM

    I think certain character types are naturally and subconsciously manipulative of others - and I believe Muhammad was in that category.



    You mean he was the motherly type?

    Hmm good theory.





     grin12 (sorry mothers of the world)
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #144 - May 05, 2010, 08:20 AM

    I think certain character types are naturally and subconsciously manipulative of others - and I believe Muhammad was in that category.



    Momo knew how to work people. It's that simple, the man understood people pretty damn well.




    I think thats whats called emotional intelligence.
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #145 - May 05, 2010, 08:26 AM

    Yeah. It's pretty funny that Allah revealed some of the Qur'an to Umar before he revealed it even to Muhammad.

    The shahada should have Umar's name in it.


    Put your self in Mohameds shoes the guy has more than 10 wives, fights battle and wars, his flock of people to take care of, and a God that does not want to talk to anybody else except him, so its a very good idea to take whatever Umar is saying or anybody else and say, you are a good man this is what Allah told me as well...   Cheesy
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #146 - May 06, 2010, 08:58 PM

    You mean an error of one of the scribes? Possible. Though less likely than it being Muhammad's own error imho as it would have been dictated and sabi'een sounds quite different from sabi'oon.

    But scribal error is almost certain to have occurred - whether here or elsewhere - it is frankly unreasonable to think it wouldn't have.


    So they can take their pick: Allah made a grammatical mistake or Allah failed to protect the Qur'an  Tongue

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #147 - January 01, 2011, 11:00 PM

    Its 2011. I am again asking you to do the right thing. Re-revert now.

    Lots of people are converting to Islam. Tony Blair's  relative Lauren Booth converted to Islam two months ago.

    Has anyone of you decided to come back to Allah.

    If you haven't, then remember time is short. We saw the film 2012. Its almost the end of the world. Its gonna end.

    Allah is about to judge the world. Trust me, you dont want to go to Hell.

    so, don't wait till after 2012. Do it now. Come back to Allah.



  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #148 - January 01, 2011, 11:04 PM

    Haha... some people really do get all their info from fiction: Hollywood movies, the Quran, Bible etc. etc.
     Cheesy

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Come back to Allah
     Reply #149 - January 01, 2011, 11:04 PM

    Its 2011.

    Lots of people are converting to Islam. Tony Blair's  relative Lauren Booth converted to Islam two months ago.

    Has anyone of you decided to come back to Allah.

    If you havent, then remember time is short. We saw the film 2012. Its almost the end of the world.

    Allah is about to judge the world. Trust me, you dont want to go to Hell.

    so, dont wait till after 2012. Do it now. Come back to Allah.





    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

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