Slave girls & wives

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Slave girls & wives
OP - January 10, 2012, 12:19 AM

Okay, this has been discussed here again and again but I got really angry about it.

I was on islamqa (to gather some pearls of wisdom) and it amazes me how shamelessly the muftis/mullahs/islamic scholars justify misogyny.

This was the question:

"Could you please clarify for me something that has been troubling me for a while. This concerns the right of a man to have sexual relations with slave girls. Is this so? If it is then is the man allowed to have relations with her as well his wife/wives. Also, is it true that a man can have sexual relations with any number of slave girls and with their own wife/wives also? I have read that Hazrat Ali had 17 slave girls and Hazrat Umar also had many. Surely if a man were allowed this freedom then this could lead to neglecting the wife's needs. Could you also tell clarify wether the wife has got any say in this matter."

And the scholar ended the answer with:

"The wife has no right to object to her husband owning female slaves or to his having intercourse with them. And Allaah knows best."

Like really? Do Muslims really think that Allah made wives to be subservient to men? Don't these bast**** give any importance to a woman's feeling and emotions? And most importantly, how do Muslim women justify such behavior towards them?
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Re: Slave girls & wives
Reply #1 - January 11, 2012, 05:43 AM

Quote from: yeehaw98 on January 10, 2012, 12:19 AM
Okay, this has been discussed here again and again but I got really angry about it.

I was on islamqa (to gather some pearls of wisdom) and it amazes me how shamelessly the muftis/mullahs/islamic scholars justify misogyny.

yeehaw98.. man.. you should give links when you write something like that..

yes islamqa ., there are many internet mulllahs that opened this Q&A bussiness and one of them is this one., I wonder whether you are getting info from there or some other link..
Quote
Quote
Quote
This was the question:

"Could you please clarify for me something that has been troubling me for a while. This concerns the right of a man to have sexual relations with slave girls. Is this so? If it is then is the man allowed to have relations with her as well his wife/wives. Also, is it true that a man can have sexual relations with any number of slave girls and with their own wife/wives also? I have read that Hazrat Ali had 17 slave girls and Hazrat Umar also had many. Surely if a man were allowed this freedom then this could lead to neglecting the wife's needs. Could you also tell clarify wether the wife has got any say in this matter."

And the scholar ended the answer with:
Quote
"The wife has no right to object to her husband owning female slaves or to his having intercourse with them. And Allaah knows best."

Like really? Do Muslims really think that Allah made wives to be subservient to men? Don't these bast**** give any importance to a woman's feeling and emotions? And most importantly, how do Muslim women justify such behavior towards them?

In Islam woman.. man .. dog.. life is no important . the only thing that is important is allah.. it is all Allah.. the voodoo hooded doll..

so that is the reason in Islam women are put in to these tents..

and my good friend Shaukat Ali wrote a story on that in Women in Islam at this link ..Read it ..

But his goal is writing against "Attack on Islam with pictures of how Juice kill Muslim children..

propaganda at it worst..

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Re: Slave girls & wives
Reply #2 - January 11, 2012, 07:00 AM

Hi YeeHaaw98,

you look like a fellow newbie, here, let me post the link that Yeezevee couldn't find.

Hi Yeezevee,

you said, "there are many internet mulllahs that opened this Q&A bussiness and one of them is this one., I wonder whether you are getting info from there or some other link.. "

Yes that's the right one and the page URL is easy to find
http://islamqa.info/en/ref/10382

and coincidentally the same Q&A business is quoted here;
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Adultery_is_Permitted_in_Islam

Er ... hang on ... you two are definitely different posters, Yes? Yee-newbie who forgot to post a link and Yee-veteran who couldn't find the link easily, Right? No?

So I'm not helping anybody out, here, at all then?

I'll stick to posting lame videos, then.

"And you, you are a fantasy, a view from where you'd like to think the world should see, just be true, and you will likely find a few building a vision, doing justice to our times."
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Re: Slave girls & wives
Reply #3 - January 11, 2012, 07:32 AM

Quote from: peaceheretic on January 11, 2012, 07:00 AM
........................

Er ... hang on ... you two are definitely different posters, Yes? Yee-newbie who forgot to post a link and Yee-veteran who couldn't find the link easily, Right? No?

So I'm not helping anybody out, here, at all then?

I'll stick to posting lame videos, then.

that is good one peaceheretic and that is a good link ., Thanks for not linking to some porno or some horrible blood chilling pictures..

Well you are not only the guy who thinks yeezevee has multiple nicks in CEMB in FFI and in other forums..

So you think Yee-newbie is same as Yee-veteran .. it is possible., yeezevee is the biggest rascal around anti_Islamic forums.. Allah knows the best.. lol..

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Re: Slave girls & wives
Reply #4 - January 11, 2012, 08:01 AM

This Xmas/New Year break I went to Istanbul, and visited a couple of palaces with their huge Harems that housed thousands of slave/concubine girls.
Did you know that the Ottoman Sultan was not allowed to marry, just have concubine/slave girls, obviously no Muslim woman is permitted to be a slave, so all the slave girls in the Harem were of non-Muslim origin mostly Christians etc… so there it is all Ottoman Sultans were born from slave women.

It was really interesting to hear about the Ottoman Harem, may try to get a book on it.

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Re: Slave girls & wives
Reply #5 - January 11, 2012, 08:07 AM

In other words, it was a place for sexy orgies? I can't believe I ever believed in this Islam bullshit. Alarms bells should have rang as soon as I read about this sex slave/concubine thing concept in Islam.
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Reply #6 - January 11, 2012, 08:22 AM

I would have thought Islam's views on sex slaves would suit men, wonder if this is the reason many men convert to Islam

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Re: Slave girls & wives
Reply #7 - January 11, 2012, 08:25 AM

Basically the Ottoman Harem was the early more sophisticated model that later was adopted by Hugh Hefner !!

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Re: Slave girls & wives
Reply #8 - January 11, 2012, 08:27 AM

Quote from: Fara7 on January 11, 2012, 08:01 AM
This Xmas/New Year break I went to Istanbul, and visited a couple of palaces with their huge Harems t...................

It was really interesting to hear about the Ottoman Harem, may try to get a book on it.

I would greatly appreciate any translated books on that.. But forget Prophet of Islam, whether he was real or Muhammad was a simple name for multiple persons of early Islam is still debatable, but the stories of Caliphs must have some truth in it. Unfortunately all of them come from Hadiths or books around hadiths. Some time back I tried to explore Islam w.r.t Caliphs.... it is a mind boggling BLOODY INTERNAL history of Islam..

well just to let readers know about Caliphs briefly these are the major characters

Quote
Year AD Year Hijra Caliph's official name

The Rashiduns

632-34 11-13 Abu Bakr
634-44 13-23 Umar ibnu l-Khattab
644-56 23-35 Uthman ibn Affan
656-61 35-40 Ali ibn Abi Talib

The Ummawiyys

661-80 41-60 Mu'awiyya ibn Abi Sufyan
680-83 60-64 Yazid I
683-84 64 Mu'awiyya II
684-85 64-65 Marwan ibnu l-Hakam
685-705 65-86 Abu l-Malik
705-15 86-96 al-Walid
715-17 96-99 Sulayman
717-20 99-101 Umar II ibnu Abdi l-Aziz
720-24 101-05 Yazid II
724-43 105-24 Hisham
743-44 125-26 al-Walid II
744 126 Yazid III
744 126-27 Ibrahim
744-50 127-32 Marwan II al-Himar

The Abbasids

749-54 132-36 as-Saffah
754-75 136-58 al-Mansur
775-85 158-69 al-Mahdi
785-86 169-70 al-Hadi
786-809 170-93 Harunu r-Rashid
809-13 193-98 al-Amin ibn Harun
813-33 198-218 al-Ma'mun ibn Harun
833-42 218-27 al-Mu'tasim ibn Harun
842-47 227-32 al-Wathiq
847-61 232-47 al-Mutawakkil
861-62 247-48 al-Muntasir
862-66 248-52 al-Musta'in
866-69 252-55 al-Mu'tazz
869-70 255-56 al-Muhtadi
870-92 256-79 al-Mu'tamid
892-902 279-89 al-Mu'tadid
902-08 289-95 al-Muktafi ibnu l-Mu'tadid
908-32 295-320 Muqtadir bi'llahi bni l-Mu'tadid
932-34 320-22 al-Qahir bi'llahi bni l-Mu'tadid
934-40 322-29 al-Radi bi'llahi bni l-Muqtadir
940-44 329-33 al-Mutaqqi li'llahi bni l-Muqtadir
944-46 333-34 al-Mustakfi bi'llahi bni l-Muktafi
946-74 334-63 al-Muti' ibni l-Muqtadir
974-91 363-81 al-Tai'i' ibni l-Muti'
991-1031 381-422 al-Qadir bi-amri'llah
1031-75 422-67 al-Qa'im
1075-94 467-87 al-Muqtadi
1094-1118 487-512 al-Mustazhir
1118-35 512-29 al-Mustarshid
1135-36 529-30 ar-Rashid
1136-60 530-55 al-Muqtafi
1160-70 555-66 al-Mustanjid
1170-80 566-75 al-Mustadi'
1180-1225 575-622 an-Nasir li-Dini llah
1225-26 622-23 az-Zahir
1226-42 623-40 al-Mustansir
1242-58 640-656 al-Musta'sim

And Each of those guys have his own Islam ..The Central Character that they follow in the foot steps is being Prophet of Islam.. "Muhammad"...

Quote from: Fara7 on January 11, 2012, 08:22 AM
I would have thought Islam's views on sex slaves would suit men, wonder if this is the reason many men convert to Islam

There is very little doubt on that and there are 10s of 1000s of examples..

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Re: Slave girls & wives
Reply #9 - January 11, 2012, 08:27 AM

Although, a place full of whores for my pleasure is not something I would neccessatily turn down. But as something from God.... fuck ooooooooooooooooooff!
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Re: Slave girls & wives
Reply #10 - January 11, 2012, 08:34 AM

Quote
Although, a place full of whores for my pleasure is not something I would neccessatily turn down. But as something from God.... fuck ooooooooooooooooooff! Cheesy

Maybe he likes to watch...

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Re: Slave girls & wives
Reply #11 - January 11, 2012, 08:48 AM

Quote
Quote from: The Demba on January 11, 2012, 08:27 AM
Although, a place full of whores for my pleasure is not something I would neccessatily turn down. But as something from God.... .... fuck ooooooooooooooooooff!

Quote from: Stuff on January 11, 2012, 08:34 AM
Maybe he likes to watch...

Yap.. Demba like to watch., Demba is god..

take it easy demba... lol..

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Re: Slave girls & wives
Reply #12 - January 11, 2012, 08:52 AM

Quote from: Stuff on January 11, 2012, 08:34 AM
Maybe he likes to watch...

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Re: Slave girls & wives
Reply #13 - January 11, 2012, 09:01 AM

What a shame I didn't get the books in the gift shops when I toured Dolmabahce Palace (which bankrupted the country when built btw as it had tons and tons of gold... biggest ceremony hall in the world... it was out of the this world .. so extravagant ) and Topkapi Place (the older palace which is also amazing) I thought I wanted to get those books from Amazon or something... but the whole history of Istanbul is mind blowing, from the Greeks, to the Romans, to the Ottomans, and the way they converted Old Churches like Aya Sofia (Hagiya Sofia ) to Mosques, also in the mosques they displayed the plates for : Allah, Mohamed, Abu-Baker, Omar, Othman, Ali .... then plates for Hassan and Hussain !! interesting, seems they have had their own Shiate population, but seems the Turkish Shiaht is different from the Persian..

The most dangerous place in the Palace usually is the Harem, lots of people had accidents and got poisoned lol, it was easy for slave girls to get pregnant and get sons for the Sultan, but the survival rate of those sons wasn't high, because other jealous concubines would find a ways to eliminate them !!

Teach us to care and not to care / Teach us to sit still.
What do we live for; if it is not to make life less difficult to each other
You are the music while the music lasts.
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Re: Slave girls & wives
Reply #14 - January 11, 2012, 06:32 PM

Quote from: yeehaw98 on January 10, 2012, 12:19 AM
Okay, this has been discussed here again and again but I got really angry about it.

I was on islamqa (to gather some pearls of wisdom) and it amazes me how shamelessly the muftis/mullahs/islamic scholars justify misogyny.

This was the question:

"Could you please clarify for me something that has been troubling me for a while. This concerns the right of a man to have sexual relations with slave girls. Is this so? If it is then is the man allowed to have relations with her as well his wife/wives. Also, is it true that a man can have sexual relations with any number of slave girls and with their own wife/wives also? I have read that Hazrat Ali had 17 slave girls and Hazrat Umar also had many. Surely if a man were allowed this freedom then this could lead to neglecting the wife's needs. Could you also tell clarify wether the wife has got any say in this matter."

And the scholar ended the answer with:

"The wife has no right to object to her husband owning female slaves or to his having intercourse with them. And Allaah knows best."

Like really? Do Muslims really think that Allah made wives to be subservient to men? Don't these bast**** give any importance to a woman's feeling and emotions? And most importantly, how do Muslim women justify such behavior towards them?

Well, of course. You get to fuck once every four months.

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Re: Slave girls & wives
Reply #15 - January 11, 2012, 07:04 PM

Of course the politics in the harem was fierce! From what i remember,
the sultan's favorite got her own apartments, and also was allowed to
bring other harem girls as her personal servants. She was for all
intensive purposes, like a queen, and was treated as such, allbeit in
a guilded cage.

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Re: Slave girls & wives
Reply #16 - January 12, 2012, 01:46 AM

J&T, it seems the first lady in the Harem was the mother of the eldest son for the Sultan, not all slave girls made it to be the sultan's lovers, some never made it (perhaps not pretty enough, or the mother of the Sultan didn't like them enough, as all the Sultan lovers had to be chosen by his mother) if these slave girls didn't make it to be the Sultan lovers, they are usually destined to be servants until their early twenties (shelf life) then they were freed (given certificate of freedom) married off to one of the Sultan court men.

A slave girl becomes part of the Sultan official harem (lovers) even if he slept with her only once, if that happens then she lived in the harem as one of his ladies as long as she lived, she was not allowed to marry anyone else and not allowed to be freed.
Well this is the story I heard from the Tour Guide lol... interesting really, I am glad I am no longer Muslim, if I was I would have had serious issues with this, and even started to justify it !!

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What do we live for; if it is not to make life less difficult to each other
You are the music while the music lasts.
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Re: Slave girls & wives
Reply #17 - January 12, 2012, 02:26 AM

Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on January 11, 2012, 07:04 PM
.....allbeit in a guilded cage.

Oi!

That's "gilded". I'm on a grammar Nazi rampage. Some silly bugger was talking about "guilding the lily" somewhere else today.

Quote
Adjective gild-ed or gilt
Active verb gild-ing

Definition of GILD
transitive verb

1: to overlay with or as if with a thin covering of gold

2
a: to give money to
b: to give an attractive but often deceptive appearance to
c (archaic): to make bloody

gild-er noun
gild the lily: to add unnecessary ornamentation to something beautiful in its own right

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Re: Slave girls & wives
Reply #18 - January 15, 2012, 09:00 PM

Quote from: The Demba on January 11, 2012, 08:07 AM
In other words, it was a place for sexy orgies? I can't believe I ever believed in this Islam bullshit. Alarms bells should have rang as soon as I read about this sex slave/concubine thing concept in Islam.

This was in my list of things that bothered me when I was a Muslim. Even though I was a Muslim man i found this to be very barbaric, cruel and absurd. Its slavery. How can you in one sentence say: "Islam is tolerant, peaceful blablabla" and in the same time JUSTIFY and CONDONE sexual slavery!

And you got all of these dawagandist who go around and grab their beard meanwhile they are saying: "Eh its not slavery, they are servants. Its not like the slaves which Christians/Jews/Non-Muslims have! You have to treat your servants very good. Masha Allah! All hikmah belongs to Allah!"

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Reply #19 - October 26, 2013, 07:54 PM

OP - Madonna/whore complex. Women have their own version.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Reply #20 - October 26, 2013, 11:34 PM

"wife has no right to object to her husband owning female slaves or to his having intercourse with them."

Muslims believe this easily because Islam accepts patriarchy as the dominant form of social construction. Female slavery is a unique subordination in that the slave is now controlled not only physically, but sexually as well. I believe this kind of property ownership lead into every woman's sexual value as a social commodity, slave or not.

It's sadly no wonder the responder doesn't mention the wive's emotions. Property can't have any.

a Muslim woman would be upset if her husband neglects her to sleep with his slave-girls but a kind of learned helplessness exists here, especially because, you know, allah knows the best.

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Reply #21 - October 27, 2013, 01:54 PM

It doesn't accept patriarchy it demands it.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #22 - October 27, 2013, 02:12 PM

I remember asking about this when I went to a Islamic retreat in the early days of becoming Muslim, and the response was, well there's no such thing as slavery anymore, so there's no need to worry about it and Allah knows best. I thought it was avoiding the question but thought I would look into and find a reason to "accept" it. The whole "they wouldn't have anyone to take care of them otherwise, and its a fitna for them to be in the house of a man, he is seeing to their needs how merciful of a duty" was the alternative answer lol. There was a lot of alarm bells in the beginning, I'm not sure why I pushed them aside.

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Reply #23 - October 27, 2013, 03:44 PM

Quote from: lerhodora on October 26, 2013, 11:34 PM
"wife has no right to object to her husband owning female slaves or to his having intercourse with them."

well that shows us the "Power of Bad incentives in Human race" from one criminal to another criminal. I am not sure such incentive process is there in animal species .. And.. and if that bad incentive is coming from allah and makes the man happy .. what else the guy needs in life? jannah on earth and jannah after death..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt2gSQCa4Tc

it leaks on earth and it leaks in heavens... and eternal erection.. what else a man needs??

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Reply #24 - October 27, 2013, 06:08 PM

Quote from: Jibbs on October 27, 2013, 02:12 PM
I remember asking about this when I went to a Islamic retreat in the early days of becoming Muslim, and the response was, well there's no such thing as slavery anymore, so there's no need to worry about it and Allah knows best. I thought it was avoiding the question but thought I would look into and find a reason to "accept" it. The whole "they wouldn't have anyone to take care of them otherwise, and its a fitna for them to be in the house of a man, he is seeing to their needs how merciful of a duty" was the alternative answer lol. There was a lot of alarm bells in the beginning, I'm not sure why I pushed them aside.

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Reply #25 - October 27, 2013, 06:28 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on October 27, 2013, 01:54 PM
It doesn't accept patriarchy it demands it.

Women can't be trusted to be leaders. We're too busy pleasing our husbands and birthing out babies.

Quote from: Jibbs on October 27, 2013, 02:12 PM
I remember asking about this when I went to a Islamic retreat in the early days of becoming Muslim, and the response was, well there's no such thing as slavery anymore, so there's no need to worry about it and Allah knows best. I thought it was avoiding the question but thought I would look into and find a reason to "accept" it. The whole "they wouldn't have anyone to take care of them otherwise, and its a fitna for them to be in the house of a man, he is seeing to their needs how merciful of a duty" was the alternative answer lol. There was a lot of alarm bells in the beginning, I'm not sure why I pushed them aside.

I heard this reasoning, too. Another one? "Most men had concubines at that time. The prophet had to let them have slave girls! How else would he have gotten them to convert to Islam? He couldn't have banned the practice!"

Also, if I hear "Allah knows best" as an excuse for something shitty in Islam again, my head might just explode.
Another variation, "God is to us what we are to ants. Ants cannot even begin to understand the way we think, why are you trying to understand God?"

"so now, if you leave (Allahu A?lam is you already have) what will u do??? go out and show ur body to all the men??? sleep with countless men?? maashaAllah if you think think this is freedom or womens right then may Allah guide you to that which is correct."
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Reply #26 - October 27, 2013, 06:31 PM

Quote from: Ex Hijabi on October 27, 2013, 06:28 PM
Women can't be trusted to be leaders. We're too busy pleasing our husbands and birthing out babies.

You sound like our latest prime minister.

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Reply #27 - October 27, 2013, 06:34 PM

Oh? Prime Minister of what country? I suddenly want to search this guy up...

"so now, if you leave (Allahu A?lam is you already have) what will u do??? go out and show ur body to all the men??? sleep with countless men?? maashaAllah if you think think this is freedom or womens right then may Allah guide you to that which is correct."
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Reply #28 - October 27, 2013, 06:39 PM

Australia. Tony Abbot. He's a bit of a knuckle dragger.

Quote
On women:

4. ‘The problem with the Australian practice of abortion is that an objectively grave matter has been reduced to a question of the mother’s convenience.’

5. ‘I think it would be folly to expect that women will ever dominate or even approach equal representation in a large number of areas simply because their aptitudes, abilities and interests are different for physiological reasons’

6. ‘I think there does need to be give and take on both sides, and this idea that sex is kind of a woman’s right to absolutely withhold, just as the idea that sex is a man’s right to demand I think they are both they both need to be moderated, so to speak’

7. ‘What the housewives of Australia need to understand as they do the ironing is that if they get it done commercially it’s going to go up in price and their own power bills when they switch the iron on are going to go up, every year…’

Australia is going through a bit of a Dubya era at the moment. However, we've survived worse.

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Re: Slave girls & wives
Reply #29 - October 27, 2013, 06:41 PM

Quote from: Ex Hijabi on October 27, 2013, 06:28 PM
Women can't be trusted to be leaders. We're too busy pleasing our husbands and birthing out babies.

Women aren't as proactive as men, they are usually reactive usually lol. Matriarchal societies had probably a more egalitarian approach, bonobo-like as I call it, whilst patriarchal socities are based more on chimps. Apes exhibit patriarchy and matriarchy, does this mean both these two are not social/cultural but biological.

Women camn beleaders now when men have already done all the hard work lol. I wonder if it was women only how long it would have taken them to invent the wheel, axle.x4 (I don't know this stuff) stick an engine it, never. They don't need to.

3 - there is a sistahood contrary to what I said previously - one hundred men on an island - few years - numbers would be reduced
sisters on an island - I suspect most of them would be alive.

Also women bitch too much about each other, that is what unites them, men can talk about football.

back to xhijabi - Cheers

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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