Why would they lie??

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Why would they lie??
OP - September 18, 2010, 07:13 AM

i came across Aron ra vedios ... it just kept me wondering

why would creationists lie?

that question , allowed me to ask further

why do u think mohammed lied??
muslims would say he was abused , ridiculed ,offered wealth and leadership over qurish ... why then did he lie??
assuming he did ofcourse

just wanted to know ur opinions on this

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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #1 - September 18, 2010, 07:34 AM

Maybe he didn't lie, maybe he believed it himself?

Delusions and mental disorders are common and according to some, it was khadija who saw his delusions as an opportunity. It was her who convinced mohammed that the things he had seen, were real, and meant he was a prophet.

So maybe mohammed actually grew to believe his delusions were real?

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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #2 - September 18, 2010, 09:20 AM

1. Power
2. Money
3. Whores
4. ? ? ?

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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #3 - September 18, 2010, 09:51 AM

Quote
1. Power
2. Money
3. Whores
4. ? ? ?

4. little boys.

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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #4 - September 18, 2010, 09:57 AM

5. beards

If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #5 - September 18, 2010, 09:59 AM

Quote
5. beards

beards make you lie?

"We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves." - from Goethes Faust
"Only the wisest and the stupidest men never change." - Confuzios
"there is no religion of peace, only people who are peaceful while being religious."
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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #6 - September 18, 2010, 10:12 AM

Quote from: tabun on September 18, 2010, 07:13 AM
why then did he lie??

He may have thought that he knew better than everyone else and if he could shape society in his own image he could improve the world.

He may even have believed it. I did when I went through my "false messiah" phase (that's embarrassing to admit) - now if people had started to believe me I probably wouldn't ever have got over it. Despite my strong compulsion to convince people that God was sending me messages to better humanity it seems that the few people I spoke to simply weren't convinced, and for that I am grateful.

So why did *I* lie? I simply convinced myself that I wasn't lying. The process of "thinking stuff up" was excused as "God is speaking to me in a non-verbal way that I am not yet used to".

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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #7 - September 18, 2010, 11:24 AM

TR, I believe you. Go on start over....

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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #8 - September 18, 2010, 12:43 PM

Quote from: RIBS on September 18, 2010, 11:24 AM
TR, I believe you. Go on start over....

God said you should kiss my ass

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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #9 - September 18, 2010, 01:12 PM

Read his biography; Mohamed was not rich even if he could; he died poor and lived nothing. Many days he lived without eating. When he has money he gave it to the poor; when somebody asked ohm something he gave it. No characteristic of a dictator; he ask the people to pray God only and not himself. I think that most here do have a biased view of the Prophet. Most of the critics I read about Islam are in facts more critics about the bad behaviors of man Muslims sadly; this is affecting me as well but I try to to make the difference between them and Islam.
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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #10 - September 18, 2010, 01:14 PM

Oh boy.....

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #11 - September 18, 2010, 01:18 PM

Quote from: Julien on September 18, 2010, 01:12 PM
Read his biography; Mohamed was not rich even if he could; he died poor and lived nothing. Many days he lived without eating. When he has money he gave it to the poor; when somebody asked ohm something he gave it. No characteristic of a dictator; he ask the people to pray God only and not himself. I think that most here do have a biased view of the Prophet. Most of the critics I read about Islam are in facts more critics about the bad behaviors of man Muslims sadly; this is affecting me as well but I try to to make the difference between them and Islam.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #12 - September 18, 2010, 01:22 PM

Quote from: Julien on September 18, 2010, 01:12 PM
Read his biography; Mohamed was not rich even if he could; he died poor and lived nothing. Many days he lived without eating. When he has money he gave it to the poor; when somebody asked ohm something he gave it. No characteristic of a dictator; he ask the people to pray God only and not himself. I think that most here do have a biased view of the Prophet. Most of the critics I read about Islam are in facts more critics about the bad behaviors of man Muslims sadly; this is affecting me as well but I try to to make the difference between them and Islam.

Point 1: When he died he owned an entire village named "Fadak". The people of this village gave Muhammad everything they owned in exchange for 2 things
A: He didn't attack them
B: They lived their lives as Dhimmis
C: They would work the land and in exchange keep 50% to live off, the other 50% would go to Muhammad PERSONALLY

Point 2: Why would he need money? Really, what use is it? He was the leader, if he wanted something he only needed to say so and it would have been offered to him free of charge. The mistake you are making is to place value on money. Today's society sees money as valuable and that's what gives it its value, people's willingness to exchange goods and services for it. If you have the goods and services at your disposal what do you need money for?

Money can bring you power, but if you already have power you don't need money.

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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #13 - September 18, 2010, 01:48 PM

Well said, TheRationalizer.

Quote from: BerberElla on September 18, 2010, 07:34 AM
Maybe he didn't lie, maybe he believed it himself?

Delusions and mental disorders are common and according to some, it was khadija who saw his delusions as an opportunity. It was her who convinced mohammed that the things he had seen, were real, and meant he was a prophet.

So maybe mohammed actually grew to believe his delusions were real?

Interesting. Thanks, BerberElla.

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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #14 - September 18, 2010, 04:31 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on September 18, 2010, 01:22 PM
Point 1: When he died he owned an entire village named "Fadak". The people of this village gave Muhammad everything they owned in exchange for 2 things
A: He didn't attack them
B: They lived their lives as Dhimmis
C: They would work the land and in exchange keep 50% to live off, the other 50% would go to Muhammad PERSONALLY

Point 2: Why would he need money? Really, what use is it? He was the leader, if he wanted something he only needed to say so and it would have been offered to him free of charge. The mistake you are making is to place value on money. Today's society sees money as valuable and that's what gives it its value, people's willingness to exchange goods and services for it. If you have the goods and services at your disposal what do you need money for?

Money can bring you power, but if you already have power you don't need money.

Can you provide the source please? didn't heard about it before. I always heard the following hadith witch is considerate as sahih (Muslim)

"A narration attributed to A'isha reports:“ When the Messenger of God died, his wives made up their minds to send Uthman ibn Affan (as their spokesman) to Abu Bakr to demand from him their share from the legacy of the Holy Prophet. (At this), Aisha said to them: Hasn't the Messenger of God said: "We (Prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"?
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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #15 - September 18, 2010, 04:37 PM

Quote from: tabun on September 18, 2010, 07:13 AM
i came across Aron ra vedios ... it just kept me wondering

why do u think mohammed lied??
muslims would say he was abused , ridiculed ,offered wealth and leadership over qurish ... why then did he lie??
assuming he did ofcourse

just wanted to know ur opinions on this

He wasn't (atleast there's nothing to support that notion).
Based on any information available (which muslims reject)
He was the oppressor and he was the one causing the problems and he was the one who attacked them and broke the treaty.
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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #16 - September 18, 2010, 04:45 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on September 18, 2010, 01:22 PM

When he died he owned an entire village named "Fadak".

But it was given to charity; the shia do have another view on this. Don't know if you were an ex-shia but we can't apply the arguments of a little sect to the majority and orthodoxy.
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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #17 - September 18, 2010, 06:50 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on September 18, 2010, 12:43 PM
God said you should kiss my ass

I would kiss your ass , Oh Prophet, but only if you are anything like Berbs avatar, or even this one:

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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #18 - September 18, 2010, 07:46 PM

Quote from: Julien on September 18, 2010, 04:45 PM
But it was given to charity.

So, if Bill gates lay dying in bed tomorrow and gave his last penny to charity he died a poor man, right? Do you think this accurately matches what people perceive the meaning to be of the phrase "He died a poor man"? No. The claim is deceptive. Apart from that, as I said, he didn't actually NEED money.

Quote from: Julien on September 18, 2010, 04:31 PM
"A narration attributed to A'isha reports:“ When the Messenger of God died, his wives made up their minds to send Uthman ibn Affan (as their spokesman) to Abu Bakr to demand from him their share from the legacy of the Holy Prophet. (At this), Aisha said to them: Hasn't the Messenger of God said: "We (Prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"?

In what way do you think "We do not have any heirs" is the same as "We have nothing to leave to our heirs"? Would a millionaire with no heirs be poor? No. Why would his family gather to claim their share of his estate if he had no estate?

This guy will have some good references you can check:
http://the-koran.blogspot.com/2010/05/muhammads-wealth-part-221.html

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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #19 - September 18, 2010, 07:57 PM

i dont really like the narriator of that vedio u have just posted a link to .... he misleads alot saw a bunch of vedios whom he narriated didnt really like him ... but i will still watch it lets see what he has to say

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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #20 - September 19, 2010, 01:51 AM

Quote from: tabun on September 18, 2010, 07:13 AM
i came across Aron ra vedios ... it just kept me wondering

why would creationists lie?

that question , allowed me to ask further

why do u think mohammed lied??
muslims would say he was abused , ridiculed ,offered wealth and leadership over qurish ... why then did he lie??
assuming he did ofcourse

just wanted to know ur opinions on this

Why did Muhammed lie? He did it for power and wealth.
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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #21 - September 19, 2010, 01:55 AM

I can't assign a definable answer. People do things for a multitude of reasons and even lie to themselves as the reasons to why they do things. The important thing is that Muhammad was wrong. Very wrong. I don't care if he was well intentioned or an evil mastermind. I am sure that to me it might be more comforting to think Muhammad was completely evil, but I know that the most evil things have been committed by people with the best of intentions.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #22 - September 19, 2010, 08:44 AM

There is something very important to draw attention to. When asked "Why would he lie?" the answer is "Who cares?".

It is simply an argument from ignorance "I can't think why he would lie, therefore he didn't" - it's a similar question to "If he made it up why would he make it so hard?".

The fact is there is ZERO evidence suggesting that the source is supernatural, therefore there is no reason to believe it was. Just because the answer to some unimportant question is "Who knows?" doesn't suddenly mean there is an intelligent creator of the universe who authored a book and spoke to Muhammad.

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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #23 - September 19, 2010, 08:53 AM

Confucius:
"What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #24 - September 19, 2010, 09:27 AM

Assuming he did lie, the lie would soon have reached astronomical proportions. After all, who, if they value their lives, is going to contradict a delusional, blood thirsty dictator?

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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #25 - September 19, 2010, 09:37 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on September 18, 2010, 10:12 AM
He may even have believed it. I did when I went through my "false messiah" phase (that's embarrassing to admit) - now if people had started to believe me I probably wouldn't ever have got over it. Despite my strong compulsion to convince people that God was sending me messages to better humanity it seems that the few people I spoke to simply weren't convinced, and for that I am grateful.

embarrassing admittedly but interesting nonetheless..

1) how long ago did it happen
2) was it diagnosed
3) what do you think it was due to

My brother is a psychiatrist, I might ask him about it too

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Re: Why would they lie??
Reply #26 - September 19, 2010, 09:41 AM

Quote from: sojournerlumus on September 19, 2010, 09:27 AM
Assuming he did lie, the lie would soon have reached astronomical proportions. After all, who, if they value their lives, is going to contradict a delusional, blood thirsty dictator?

Including on his death bed when he said that prophets do not have heirs, which contradicts
27:16 And Solomon was David's heir

And yet all who heard probably just stood there and accepted it. Everyone was by now brainwashed, so anyone speaking out against him would have been killed by his zombies even after his death.

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