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 Topic: The Rationalist Claim

 (Read 4777 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The Rationalist Claim
     OP - March 09, 2010, 04:51 PM

    The rationalist claim (in the western world at least) has always been that the universe is completely knowable.
    This does not mean that the universe is knowable now or even knowable by humans, but that the reality, as it is, is completely knowable in principle; that the entire universe can be intellectually grasped, logically systemised, perfectly known to every last detail.

    However, there has also been a long-standing philosophical tradition of a transcendental reality. As Kant famously put it, we can know things as they appear, the phenomena of the world but we can never know things as they are in themselves, for themselves; the noumena of reality is impossible to grasp through intellect at all. Of course, this does not mean that it cannot be grasped at all, much mystical thought centres around the idea that while this immanent, transcendental cannot be intelligently and logically known, it can however, be felt. The idea being that reality may not in the end conform to our peculiarly human systems of logic, but that what it is in itself, can be experienced in totality without the hindrance of attempting to rationalise it. We are speaking, of course, of the proverbial ineffable, numinous experience that much of humanity has felt.

    Wittgenstein, the darling child of the logical analysts themselves, was even aware of this mystical reality. His famous last proposition in the tractacus was that "what we cannot speak about, we must pass over in silence." To those committed to the logical paradigm, like Russell, this sentence was the crowning glory of the whole idea, that to speak is to render intelligible and thus what was unintelligible didn't deserve our attention. However, there is another interpretation of this proposition and the one that Wittgenstein favoured was that while it is true that the logical paradigm has no place for the ineffable - the real questions of life, the questions of metaphysics and morality and aesthetics could not be placed in logical language and thus logic itself was inadequate.

    There is not much discussion in contemporary thought about this rationalistic idea, perhaps because of the spectacular success of empirical scientism and its adamant, aggressive plans to conquer everything and make it all rational, intelligible, impeccably logical. However, and this is the question I want to ask here, is this rationalistic paradigm deserved? Is reality, in all its totality completely knowable?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #1 - March 09, 2010, 06:40 PM

    Can I ask, do you think that mysticism has some sort of legitimacy to it?
  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #2 - March 10, 2010, 05:59 AM

    I think your question can be split into two. Whether or not the mystical/ transcendent/ ineffable experience exists and then whether this experience can be used to erect a fundamental ontology.
    To the first part, I think there is great legitimacy in the experience itself. It has been felt by many humans throughout all cultures and all periods of time from ancients like Plotinus and Buddha to contemporary thinkers like Simone Weil and Krishnamurti. The experience itself cannot be doubted, it is a definate reality.
    Now, can this experience tell us anything important about the world? I am not sure if this question can be answered without having a mystical experience for oneself. The very point of the experience is that it is unintelligible, it cannot be spoken about intelligently and therefore, there is nothing that can be said about it from the outside that has any relevance. Only once one has had the experience for oneself can one decide whether it elucidates the nature of reality or not.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #3 - March 10, 2010, 06:21 AM

    So if you can take that...and actually do something with it...then it is worth exploring.
    However, it just seems like philosophical masterbation

    'mystical reality' if it exists, would be part of reality.

    Quote
    Is reality, in all its totality completely knowable?


    I think so, but cant know that to be the case, however, we should try.
    I get annoyed with the new agery mystic stuff because

    1) it goes nowhere and adds nothing
    2) Its a way of saying "its mystical, so whatever I pull out my bum is completely valid" and breeds superstition.

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #4 - March 10, 2010, 06:58 AM

    I think your question can be split into two. Whether or not the mystical/ transcendent/ ineffable experience exists and then whether this experience can be used to erect a fundamental ontology.


    I really do think this experience is related to certain parts of the neuro circuitry being transmitted and has nothing to do with some other reality. It is also subjective and says absolutely nothing to the person who is a "seeker".

    Quote
    To the first part, I think there is great legitimacy in the experience itself. It has been felt by many humans throughout all cultures and all periods of time from ancients like Plotinus and Buddha to contemporary thinkers like Simone Weil and Krishnamurti. The experience itself cannot be doubted, it is a definate reality.


    Do you see where all this is leading? If you grant these people the validity of sufism, then you would need to also grant Muhammad, Jesus, Baha-Ullah, Joseph Smith, Abu Hamid Al-Ghazali, Ibn Arabi, Maulana Rumi, Shams-e-Tabriz, Abu Madyan and a whole host of others. This could automatically grant Muhammad the benefit of veracity to his claim, along with all the sufi sages and saints who have followed.

    Quote
    Now, can this experience tell us anything important about the world? I am not sure if this question can be answered without having a mystical experience for oneself. The very point of the experience is that it is unintelligible, it cannot be spoken about intelligently and therefore, there is nothing that can be said about it from the outside that has any relevance. Only once one has had the experience for oneself can one decide whether it elucidates the nature of reality or not.


    If it isn't intelligible then of course it can't say anything objective about anything at all. I remember when I was struggling with my own doubts, I was told that the only way I could come to know Allah was if I didn't obstruct this "ayn-al-ruh" Now I understand it's supposed to be metaphorical, but is that the only way? What's wrong with our other senses?
  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #5 - March 10, 2010, 08:24 AM

    So if you can take that...and actually do something with it...then it is worth exploring.
    However, it just seems like philosophical masterbation

    'mystical reality' if it exists, would be part of reality.

    I think so, but cant know that to be the case, however, we should try.
    I get annoyed with the new agery mystic stuff because

    1) it goes nowhere and adds nothing
    2) Its a way of saying "its mystical, so whatever I pull out my bum is completely valid" and breeds superstition.


    Well, I don't think I am proposing anything 'new-agey' or the like though I understand your concern. I'm not trying to prove that mysticism is the truth of everything, I am merely asking if the rational idea is possible to fulfill. This is a concern that has dogged the best minds of all time, let alone just some superstitious band-wagon jumping new-agers.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #6 - March 10, 2010, 08:32 AM

    I really do think this experience is related to certain parts of the neuro circuitry being transmitted and has nothing to do with some other reality. It is also subjective and says absolutely nothing to the person who is a "seeker".

    Do you see where all this is leading? If you grant these people the validity of sufism, then you would need to also grant Muhammad, Jesus, Baha-Ullah, Joseph Smith, Abu Hamid Al-Ghazali, Ibn Arabi, Maulana Rumi, Shams-e-Tabriz, Abu Madyan and a whole host of others. This could automatically grant Muhammad the benefit of veracity to his claim, along with all the sufi sages and saints who have followed.

    If it isn't intelligible then of course it can't say anything objective about anything at all. I remember when I was struggling with my own doubts, I was told that the only way I could come to know Allah was if I didn't obstruct this "ayn-al-ruh" Now I understand it's supposed to be metaphorical, but is that the only way? What's wrong with our other senses?


    Well, I think we need to appreciate the difference between the content and the interpretation of an experience. The experience itself exists, whether it is just the brain working or not is beside the point. The fact that there is such an experience to be felt by humans is beyond doubt, the interpretation of what that experience means is a question that I don't think we have an answer to.

    Also, just because a mystical experience is possible and even if it gives us something of the truth does not mean that those who claim to be mystics are always correct. Muhammad may have been right about one or two things, but he was probably completely wrong about most things. His experiences don't change that.

    Will I guess my question is an attempt to understand whether only objective, logical, intelligible discourse will get us to the truth. I don't know if the attempt to make all of reality objective will give us the total truth, and so I don't think there is any a priori to rule out something just because it can only be known subjectively. After all, the objective world is an abstraction, reality is always subjective.

    Finally, perhaps the word mysticism just has too many negative connotations. Perhaps transcendental is a better word because it doesn't have the dogmatic superstitious background hindering it.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #7 - May 28, 2010, 06:57 PM

    bump for Islame and Hassan on the transcendence/ rationalist difference

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #8 - May 28, 2010, 07:20 PM

    After all, the objective world is an abstraction, reality is always subjective.


    I think it would be more correct to say that reality is always experienced subjectively. Reality itself is not subjective.
  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #9 - May 28, 2010, 07:37 PM

    Yes, you are correct that reality is always experienced subjectively. I suppose what reality is outside of our experience of reality cannot be known - if there is a reality at all.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #10 - May 28, 2010, 08:24 PM

    I personally believe (what a sinful word here), that everything is potentially knowable, but any sentient being with the capability of exploration will die out long before they come even close to knowing everything. This does not mean exploration is worthless, it is good brain activity and also it is very interesting. I am myself a "sexed up atheist", which is a naturalistic pantheist, I believe that everything that has, does and will exist is "divine", meaning beautiful and enthralling, but also with a negative side to it too. This "god" that exists therefore is not good or bad, it's just what is around us, both bad and good, and the only thinking bit of it is in organisms, they are fallible things.
  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #11 - May 28, 2010, 08:42 PM

    bump for Islame and Hassan on the transcendence/ rationalist difference

    Sorry I missed your question?

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  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #12 - May 28, 2010, 11:05 PM

    Ah, I bumped the thread so that you could see my thoughts on why I think the transcendent is an obvious part of reality. To put it simply - because rationalism can never be complete.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #13 - May 28, 2010, 11:35 PM

    If thats what the rationalist claim is, that the universe is completely knowable, then I dont subscribe to that pov. 

    There may be things that are too difficult to reach and happened so long ago in the past (14,000,000,000 years) to  that its impossible to gain the evidence to prove such a stance.

    Thats why I as a utilitarian feel it necessary to plug the gaping holes in rationalism with reductionism.  Hence my philosophical stance seems complete to me, and gives me great comfort with where I stand currently on a wide range of issues. 

    I know that may come across as cocky, but I try my best not to appear that way, its just comes as part of the parcel and works for me.

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    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #14 - November 03, 2010, 05:13 PM

    @z10

    So how do you propose we go about finding out?
  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #15 - November 03, 2010, 05:52 PM

    If thats what the rationalist claim is, that the universe is completely knowable, then I dont subscribe to that pov.  

    There may be things that are too difficult to reach and happened so long ago in the past (14,000,000,000 years) to  that its impossible to gain the evidence to prove such a stance


    Thats why I as a utilitarian feel it necessary to plug the gaping holes in rationalism with reductionism.  Hence my philosophical stance seems complete to me, and gives me great comfort with where I stand currently on a wide range of issues.  

    I know that may come across as cocky, but I try my best not to appear that way, its just comes as part of the parcel and works for me.


    I think what z10 meant is that the claim is everything is knowable in principle i.e. if we had all the possible scientific data available then we would have the intelligence to know everything - providing we were sufficiently smart enough.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #16 - November 03, 2010, 07:03 PM

    The rationalist claim (in the western world at least) has always been that the universe is completely knowable.
    This does not mean that the universe is knowable now or even knowable by humans, but that the reality, as it is, is completely knowable in principle; that the entire universe can be intellectually grasped, logically systemised, perfectly known to every last detail.

    However, there has also been a long-standing philosophical tradition of a transcendental reality. As Kant famously put it, we can know things as they appear, the phenomena of the world but we can never know things as they are in themselves, for themselves; the noumena of reality is impossible to grasp through intellect at all. Of course, this does not mean that it cannot be grasped at all, much mystical thought centres around the idea that while this immanent, transcendental cannot be intelligently and logically known, it can however, be felt. The idea being that reality may not in the end conform to our peculiarly human systems of logic, but that what it is in itself, can be experienced in totality without the hindrance of attempting to rationalise it. We are speaking, of course, of the proverbial ineffable, numinous experience that much of humanity has felt.

    Wittgenstein, the darling child of the logical analysts themselves, was even aware of this mystical reality. His famous last proposition in the tractacus was that "what we cannot speak about, we must pass over in silence." To those committed to the logical paradigm, like Russell, this sentence was the crowning glory of the whole idea, that to speak is to render intelligible and thus what was unintelligible didn't deserve our attention. However, there is another interpretation of this proposition and the one that Wittgenstein favoured was that while it is true that the logical paradigm has no place for the ineffable - the real questions of life, the questions of metaphysics and morality and aesthetics could not be placed in logical language and thus logic itself was inadequate.

    There is not much discussion in contemporary thought about this rationalistic idea, perhaps because of the spectacular success of empirical scientism and its adamant, aggressive plans to conquer everything and make it all rational, intelligible, impeccably logical. However, and this is the question I want to ask here, is this rationalistic paradigm deserved? Is reality, in all its totality completely knowable?


    I have a headache just reading this. You seem to be trying hard trying to say something coherent while speaking in riddles.
  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #17 - November 03, 2010, 07:16 PM

    I have a headache just reading this. You seem to be trying hard trying to say something coherent while speaking in riddles.

    lol- you ever come across a subject called 'philosophy'?

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  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #18 - November 03, 2010, 07:25 PM

    The rationalist claim (in the western world at least) has always been that the universe is completely knowable.
    This does not mean that the universe is knowable now or even knowable by humans, but that the reality, as it is, is completely knowable in principle; that the entire universe can be intellectually grasped, logically systemised, perfectly known to every last detail.

    However, there has also been a long-standing philosophical tradition of a transcendental reality. As Kant famously put it, we can know things as they appear, the phenomena of the world but we can never know things as they are in themselves, for themselves; the noumena of reality is impossible to grasp through intellect at all. Of course, this does not mean that it cannot be grasped at all, much mystical thought centres around the idea that while this immanent, transcendental cannot be intelligently and logically known, it can however, be felt. The idea being that reality may not in the end conform to our peculiarly human systems of logic, but that what it is in itself, can be experienced in totality without the hindrance of attempting to rationalise it. We are speaking, of course, of the proverbial ineffable, numinous experience that much of humanity has felt.

    Wittgenstein, the darling child of the logical analysts themselves, was even aware of this mystical reality. His famous last proposition in the tractacus was that "what we cannot speak about, we must pass over in silence." To those committed to the logical paradigm, like Russell, this sentence was the crowning glory of the whole idea, that to speak is to render intelligible and thus what was unintelligible didn't deserve our attention. However, there is another interpretation of this proposition and the one that Wittgenstein favoured was that while it is true that the logical paradigm has no place for the ineffable - the real questions of life, the questions of metaphysics and morality and aesthetics could not be placed in logical language and thus logic itself was inadequate.

    There is not much discussion in contemporary thought about this rationalistic idea, perhaps because of the spectacular success of empirical scientism and its adamant, aggressive plans to conquer everything and make it all rational, intelligible, impeccably logical. However, and this is the question I want to ask here, is this rationalistic paradigm deserved? Is reality, in all its totality completely knowable?


    I'm sorry proverbial ineffable? I think not.

    Sure Sufism may have something to say about this. Considering that after settling down from their Jihadistic moods in the Indian subcontinent they essentially stole alot from Hindu theology. For example concepts like Wahdat Al-Wujud screams plagiary from Hindu philosophy.

    And we may find the concept of "Dao" in Daoism as well. Etymological analysis of the word Dao indicates numerous Indo-European cognates possibly indicating the origin of this word and its concept having transferred to the Chinese.
  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #19 - November 03, 2010, 07:44 PM

    z10

    ~ mysticism: a word that is used to shield criticism from scientists and logicians
    ~ nothing can ever be known for sure / this would be an absolute truth statement from him, this in itself is a positive assertion, a ground by which statements regarding metaphysics are to be stood but leaving nothing permanently to stand surely. Based upon such a premise knowledge can never be built confidently, since there is no fundamental basis for us to, as all would be cast aside

    the affairs of mankind have always been the same throughout the ages. always there are groups who hold certain opinions regarding which they exclusively are adamant about. if every man who aspires to believe in something confidently knowing that he would die with this belief lasting till the end of times or forever(whichever is longer), listen to these people. Most certainly he would come to ruin.
  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #20 - November 08, 2010, 08:57 PM

    @z10

    So how do you propose we go about finding out?


    I don't know if it is possible to know everything so I wouldn't know where to start to begin finding out. There are certain options that have been proposed:


    People like Jung and Joseph Campbell have proposed that to come to a complete understanding of oneself, you have to embrace the non-rational parts of your own psyche - the shadow hiding beneath your facade of being logical
    For others, especially mystics, the idea is to attempt direct experience of the Truth, I don't know how this is done but supposedly direct experience cannot be wrong like an abstract system of thought can
    Another option, mainly a post-structuralist one, is to abandon the idea of an underlying truth and instead to construct your own creative concepts of the Truth, however it seems to you in your own subjective viewing of reality

    I don't know which method is best or even if one of these should be pursued - but I do think they may have something to say that cannot be reached through being coldly analytic alone.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: The Rationalist Claim
     Reply #21 - December 04, 2010, 08:20 AM

    Btw how is Allah the Ineffable?

    Vast majority of Atheists dont seem to have a problem with a "God" that is more of an intellectual concept without the superstitious and dogmatic components. They just feel that still such a thing is non-existent according to their sanity or dismissable without effort since there is no tangible evidence for it.

    Growing up as a Hindu, I always thought and felt "Allah" was "just some other God" much like the rest of Gods mankind have spoken of based on how Muslims spoke about Him and behaved. I especially thought Allah was male just like the Judeo-Christian "Heavenly Father" because of their usage of "He"/"Him" when referring.
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