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Theme Changer

 Topic: Question for Muslims

 (Read 1855 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Question for Muslims
     OP - February 18, 2011, 10:33 AM

    If my life depended on it I cannot see how I could possibly defend 67:5

    "We have beautified the nearest heaven with lamps and we have made them as missiles for the devils."

    The lamps are stars, but the Quran seems to be saying that these missiles (shooting stars) are actually stars OR it is saying that "shooting stars" are also lamps, which they are not.

    If you haven't given this verse some thought could you please do so and explain to me how this verse can make sense in light of modern knowledge?  If you have already thought about it, could you please explain it to me?  I'm pretty good at making up BS excuses for stuff if I choose to make claims without evidence to support it, but on this one I am at a complete loss.



    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Question for Muslims
     Reply #1 - February 18, 2011, 10:43 AM

    Rationaliser, are you aware of the concept of the seven heavens and how it links with the moon, mercury, venus, the sun, mars, jupiter and saturn? Its just becuase if you look at this verse in this context, that means the stars are closer to the earth than all the planets and the sun, as the stars are in the first heavenly sphere of the moon.

    However, this is something that Muslims would probably reject, as it doesn't specifically say that.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Question for Muslims
     Reply #2 - February 18, 2011, 01:32 PM

    If you wanna see a moderate Muslims pull a load of exegetical acrobatics then look no further than Muhammad Asad's interpretation of the Qur'an. Seriously, it's pretty damn funny. Just look up any of the ridiculous or morally dubious verses and get ready to lol. He really out-does himself in trying to explain away this stuff in surah 72

    [67:5]
    And, indeed, We have adorned the skies nearest to the earth with lights, and have made them the object of futile guesses for the evil ones [from among men]: and for them have We readied suffering through a blazing flame

    * v.5 : Lit., “lamps” – i.e., stars: cf. 37:6 “We have adorned the skies nearest to the earth with the beauty of stars.”
    * For the wider meaning of shayātīn – a term which in this context points specifically to “the satans from among mankind, that is, the astrologers” (Baydāwī) – see sūrah 15, note 16. As regards the term rajm (pl. rujūm), which literally denotes the “throwing [of something] like a stone,” – i.e., at random – it is often used metaphorically in the sense of “speaking conjecturally” or “making [something] the object of guesswork” (Jawharī, Rāghib – the latter connecting this metaphor explicitly with the above verse, Lisān al-‘Arab, Qāmūs, Tāj al-‘Arūs, etc.). Cf. also 37:6-10.
  • Re: Question for Muslims
     Reply #3 - February 18, 2011, 03:16 PM

    I haven't given this verse any thought before, so looking at it now, I would say that Mo was talking about shooting stars (i.e. meteors).  I imagine even back then people would have seen shooting stars with the naked eye or will at least have heard of them.  I guess Muslims will say that shooting stars do give off their own light, which is true (coz' they burn up in our atmosphere), but they are NOT stars.  lol

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Question for Muslims
     Reply #4 - February 18, 2011, 03:31 PM

    teapot, but it seems to say "We put stars up there, and some of them are there to shoot down Jinn"

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Question for Muslims
     Reply #5 - February 18, 2011, 04:06 PM

    If my life depended on it I cannot see how I could possibly defend 67:5

    "We have beautified the nearest heaven with lamps and we have made them as missiles for the devils."

    If you wanna see a moderate Muslims pull a load of exegetical acrobatics then look no further than Muhammad Asad's interpretation of the Qur'an. Seriously, it's pretty damn funny... 

    [67:5]
    And, indeed, We have adorned the skies nearest to the earth with lights, and have made them the object of futile guesses for the evil ones [from among men]: and for them have We readied suffering through a blazing flame

    I fully agree with you guys that Q'uran is silly book that is put together 10s of years after the death of a perosn called Muhammad. I am also of the opinion it was put together by more than one person at different time each one not reading what is there in earlier versions. So what you have is confusion.. confusion and confusion if one is trying to understand logic/rational behind it.

    Any ways, aftre reading Quran tons of times, I have realized two things., one use the translation of SHAKIR and 2). read atleast 5 verses above and below of the verse that one is trying to understand. So if we  want to look in to that 67.005 ., one must read 67.001 to 67.010 to make any sense out of 67.005.

    Quote
    067.001 : Blessed is He in Whose hand is the kingdom, and He has power over all things,

    067.002: Who created death and life that He may try you-- which of you is best in deeds; and He is the Mighty, the Forgiving,

    067.003: Who created the seven heavens one above another; you see no incongruity in the creation of the Beneficent Allah; then look again, can you see any disorder?

    067.004: Then turn back the eye again and again; your look shall '~ come back to you confused while it is fatigued.

    067.005: And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with lamps and We have made these missiles for the Shaitans, and We have prepared for them the chastisement of burning.

    067.006: And for those who disbelieve in their Lord is the punishment of hell, and evil is the resort.

    067.007: When they shall be cast therein, they shall hear a loud moaning of it as it heaves,

    067.008: Almost bursting for fury. Whenever a group is cast into it, its keeper shall ask them: Did there not come to you a warner?

    067.009: They shall say: Yea! indeed there came to us a warner, but we rejected (him) and said: Allah has not revealed anything, you are only in a great error.

    067.010: And they shall say: Had we but listened or pondered, we should not have been among the inmates of the burning fire.

    there you go now you tell me the meaning of 67.005.,

    The other thing one must realize is that  apparently these verses were revealed in Makkah that is before Prophet of Islam migrated to Madina after the death of his first wife Khadija..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Question for Muslims
     Reply #6 - February 18, 2011, 04:33 PM

    Well, it's very obvious what the verses are saying when you look at them all, and there are many.

    Q. 15:16-18

    And truly we have set in the heaven constellations and have adorned it for the beholders, and we have guarded it from every outcast satan, except one who listens by stealth; he is then followed by a clear meteor.

    41:12

    And we have adorned the world's heaven with lamps and guard.

    37:6-9

    And truly we have adorned the world's heaven with an adornment; the planets, and to guard from every rebellious satan, they cannot listen to the highest council for they are struck from every side; repelled, theirs is a lasting punishment.

    67:5

    And truly we have adorned the world's heaven with lamps (same word as 41:12) and we made them missiles for the satans.

    72:9

    We (the jinn) used to sit in places to listen, but not who listens finds for himself a meteor
  • Re: Question for Muslims
     Reply #7 - February 18, 2011, 04:35 PM

    Those rocks have been on course for thousands of years. Allah is claimed to know the future. So, considering the Jinn know that whenever they do whatever it is that requires a meteorite the meteorite WILL appear why would they still bother doing whatever that thing is?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Question for Muslims
     Reply #8 - February 19, 2011, 02:16 AM

    teapot, but it seems to say "We put stars up there, and some of them are there to shoot down Jinn"

    Like I said, Muhammad (like everyone else during his time) thought the meteors shooting momentarily across the sky were also stars.  I think that's what the verse is referring to, and it's quite hilarious that the verse says that they are shooting down devils.  lol

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
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