Composition of the Quran question

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Composition of the Quran question
OP - March 18, 2011, 02:29 PM

As I understand it, islam is tacked onto the judaic religion. Does the quran have the entire jewish bible as part and parcel with the Mo sections added on.

I see all muslims acknowledging moses and jesus as prophets.

Is it like the xian bible of old testament and new testament

TY

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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #1 - March 18, 2011, 02:35 PM

The Islamic claim is that Jews used to hide bits of the Torah, and that Christians are misled by early Christians who made stuff up.

Mo came to clear things up. If I were omnipotent I'd know why an omnipotent god didn't know this would all happen in the first place, but anyway...

He then came out with the Quran. If something in the Quran says something in the Torah/Bible is wrong then it is wrong, if some Quran verse corroborates them then they are right. If it does neither then nobody knows

Essentially I think the idea is to look at Muhammad's life and emulate him as much as possible, because he was perfect (if that's not a cult then I don't know what is.)

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http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #2 - March 18, 2011, 02:40 PM

Quote from: SeekerSA on March 18, 2011, 02:29 PM
As I understand it, islam is tacked onto the judaic religion. Does the quran have the entire jewish bible as part and parcel with the Mo sections added on.

No, actually quran is always read alone by itself.

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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #3 - March 18, 2011, 03:22 PM

The reason I asked is that there was a reference to Lot fathering his daughters children which is in the jewish and xian bibles on one of the threads. Someone said the quaran was written 10 years after his death so maybe they plagiarized some bits.

I think most religions have an iconic perfect person. It is just that when these muslim apologists come with their preaching, they try validate or invalidate stuff from the other three.

As an ex christian I have no interest in sampling what I consider another myth so excuse my ignorance and questions.

Their favorite seems to be an appeal to science as if us atheists will suddenly bow down to the majesterium of another goatherder's ramblings. You have some good stuff here and i hope you do not mind me using what I find appropriate in countering their BS, I do like to be fair in my critique of all three abrahamic religions

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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #4 - March 18, 2011, 03:26 PM

Think of it this way. Some shit happened. Some witnesses said what happened but their statements kept getting changed, bits added in or removed. Then Muhammad turned up with the star witness, CCTV, but it only shows the bits the camera operator thought were interesting.

That's the best way I can think to put it

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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #5 - March 19, 2011, 03:57 AM

I'm going to be exploring the Biblical Plagiarisms in the Qur'an in a video series (The Origins of the Qur'an)
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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #6 - March 20, 2011, 02:18 PM

That's cool. Will you also do a transcript? I have a real problem watching You Tube Vids with our pathetic internet here in SA, unless you pay a shitload of money for a decent connection, you are stuck with a ADSL that is not really much faster than modem speeds esp with flash apps.

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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #7 - April 04, 2011, 02:22 AM

The very foundation of the three Abrahamic faiths are based on fairytales, fables, and lies. Moses is a mythical figure who probably never existed and the historicity of Jesus is questionable. Koran's acknowledgement of previous scriptures is enough to dismiss the Koran as fabricated literature, because there were no previous scriptures. The OT and NT are works of fiction written by men of yore. Here is one example:

5:26 - He said: So it shall surely be forbidden to them for forty years, they shall wander about in the land, therefore do not grieve for the nation of transgressors.

I believe this verse alludes to the exodus led by Moses, an exodus that never took place. There is not one single archeological evidence of the exodus. The Koran is a lie.
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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #8 - April 04, 2011, 02:34 AM

I wonder if zionists, seeing that Islam is a plagiarism of Judaism, wish Moses never talked to the damn bush in the first place?

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #9 - April 04, 2011, 04:37 AM

Quote from: SeekerSA on March 18, 2011, 02:29 PM
As I understand it, islam is tacked onto the judaic religion. Does the quran have the entire jewish bible as part and parcel with the Mo sections added on.

I see all muslims acknowledging moses and jesus as prophets.

Is it like the xian bible of old testament and new testament

No. Not at all.

There are some stories shared between the Quran and the Bible, but the Quran has its stories pieced togeather from multiple versions of the stories of the Bible AND the non-canonical Jewish and Christian books. Naturally, this means that evrery story in the Quran is a severly distorted version of any story you can find in the Bible or the non-canonical books. for example, the story of Jesus in the Quran, while very short and retold sporadically all over the Quran, it's pieced togeather from about 10 different books (the 4 canonized Gospels and non-canonical gospels).

any story in the Quran you can think of is altered (perhaps except for the story of Joseph, although it's alot shorter in the Quran). for example, Aaron built the Golden Calf according to the Bible... the Quran's version: Aaron *opposed* building the Golden Calf, and someone else did. Solomon died an idolater in the Bible, the Quran says Solomon was never a disbeliever... even as small a detail as the response of God towards the israelites for complaining about their food is altered (the Bible says God killed a lot of them by sending them a plague; the Quran says God told them to go back to Egypt if they don't like their new and better food), etc, etc.

another example is the story of satan's fall of grace in the Quran. It is completely different from the one in the Bible, but has great resemblence with an old Jewish non-canonical book. i posted some info regarding this before, i'll look for the link.

EDIT: here they are.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8595.msg218614#msg218614

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8595.msg218673#msg218673

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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #10 - April 04, 2011, 04:41 AM

Quoting Debunker:

" Naturally, this means that evrery story in the Quran is a severly distorted version of any story you can find in the Bible or the non-canonical books."

Don't you mean that every story in the Koran is the correct version of the distorted ones in previous books, brother in kufr? WTF, seriously man!

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #11 - April 04, 2011, 04:49 AM

Quote
Quoting Debunker:

" Naturally, this means that evrery story in the Quran is a severly distorted version of any story you can find in the Bible or the non-canonical books."

Don't you mean that every story in the Koran is the correct version of the distorted ones in previous books, brother in kufr? WTF, seriously man!

i'm talking from the viewpoint of someone who believes all of these are fairytales. With this as the premise, it only follows logically that the author of the Quran distorted the versions available in the other books (the canonical and non-canonical ones) in order to be able to piece them togeather. Too much unnecessary and difficult work for an illiterate author, I know, but hey.

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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #12 - April 04, 2011, 04:51 AM

@ TR

please vote for me to be POTM. i need your help, billy is closing in!

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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #13 - April 04, 2011, 04:55 AM

Politicking seemed beneath debunker. I guess not.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #14 - April 04, 2011, 05:01 AM

Quote from: debunker on April 04, 2011, 04:49 AM
i'm talking from the viewpoint of someone who believes all of these are fairytales. With this as the premise, it only follows logically that the author of the Quran distorted the versions available in the other books (the canonical and non-canonical ones) in order to be able to piece them togeather. Too much unnecessary and difficult work for an illiterate author, I know, but hey.

And why did you choose such a point of view to elucidate matters related to salvation of our eternal souls to a random curious person?

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #15 - April 04, 2011, 05:06 AM

Quote from: deusvult on April 04, 2011, 04:55 AM
Politicking seemed beneath debunker. I guess not.

Ah! i totally forgot you're a real angel who would vote for me! so did you?

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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #16 - April 04, 2011, 05:07 AM

Not yet. Do you promise a chicken in every pot?

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #17 - April 04, 2011, 05:09 AM

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on April 04, 2011, 05:01 AM
And why did you choose such a point of view to elucidate matters related to salvation of our eternal souls to a random curious person?

i'm not making dawah here, alex... just having fun is all.

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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #18 - April 04, 2011, 05:11 AM

Quote from: deusvult on April 04, 2011, 05:07 AM
Not yet. Do you promise a chicken in every pot?

yes sir, i do!

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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #19 - April 04, 2011, 05:15 AM

@Debunker,

I'm fine with you having fun and not dawah, but it doesn;t answer my question: why choose a point of view, which is alien to you, despite the fact that you may very well comprehend it.

Now let me go all Yeezevee on you and say just this:

"do you want to say to yourself" so what are you debunker?*

*(too lazy to link with a reference)

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #20 - April 04, 2011, 05:20 AM

Quote
I'm fine with you having fun and not dawah, but it doesn;t answer my question: why choose a point of view, which is alien to you, despite the fact that you may very well comprehend it.

he wasn't arguing or debating a certain idea. he asked for information...

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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #21 - April 04, 2011, 05:21 AM

So why would you knowingly give false information, brother?

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #22 - April 04, 2011, 05:29 AM

Quote
So why would you knowingly give false information, brother?

ok, just imagine i told him: "no, no, the Quran is different because it has the correct version.... yeah, my holy book is cool just like that!"

the conversation would have changed from seeking info to a debate about my unfounded claims.

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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #23 - April 04, 2011, 12:17 PM

The Bible & Torah were legitimized by rabbis and monks otherwise they themselves are apocryphal. Therefore any narrative found in the Koran that corroborates any of the anecdotes in the OT & NT are fables.

Secondly, there are several passages found in the Koran plagiarized from text pre-dating Islam such as the Seven Sleepers of Ehpesus.
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Re: Composition of the Quran question
Reply #24 - April 04, 2011, 02:24 PM

Quote from: debunker on April 04, 2011, 05:29 AM
ok, just imagine i told him: "no, no, the Quran is different because it has the correct version.... yeah, my holy book is cool just like that!"

the conversation would have changed from seeking info to a debate about my unfounded claims.

Neither saying that your book is the kewlest one nor claiming that it is a mere plagiarism were necessary. Don't you think there was another way?

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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