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Theme Changer

 Topic: Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏

 (Read 4808 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     OP - April 08, 2013, 06:44 PM

    http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/response-to-controversy2/

    Quote
    My views on Islam:

    My criticism of faith-based religion focuses on what I consider to be bad ideas, held for bad reasons, leading to bad behavior. Because I am concerned about the logical and behavioral consequences of specific beliefs, I do not treat all religions the same. Not all religious doctrines are mistaken to the same degree, intellectually or ethically, and it would be dishonest and ultimately dangerous to pretend otherwise. People in every tradition can be seen making the same errors, of course—e.g. relying on faith instead of evidence in matters of great personal and public concern—but the doctrines and authorities in which they place their faith run the gamut from the quaint to the psychopathic. For instance, a dogmatic belief in the spiritual and ethical necessity of complete nonviolence lies at the very core of Jainism, whereas an equally dogmatic commitment to using violence to defend one’s faith, both from within and without, is similarly central to the doctrine of Islam. These beliefs, though held for identical reasons (faith) and in varying degrees by individual practitioners of these religions, could not be more different. And this difference has consequences in the real world. (Let that be the first barrier to entry into this conversation: If you will not concede this point, you will not understand anything I say about Islam. Unfortunately, many of my most voluble critics cannot clear this bar—and no amount of quotation from the Koran, the hadith, the ravings of modern Islamists, or from the plaints of their victims, makes a bit of difference.)

    Facts of this kind demand that we make distinctions among faiths that many confused or dishonest people will interpret as a sign of bigotry. For instance, I have said on more than one occasion that Mormonism is objectively less credible than Christianity, because Mormons are committed to believing nearly all the implausible things that Christians believe plus many additional implausible things. It is mathematically true to say that whatever probability one assigns to Jesus’ returning to earth to judge the living and the dead, one must assign a lesser probability to his doing so from Jackson County, Missouri. The glare of history is likewise unkind to Mormonism, for we simply know much more about Joseph Smith than we do about the twelve Apostles, and we have very good reasons to believe that he was a gifted con man. It is not a sign of bigotry against Mormons as people to honestly discuss these things. And I believe that atheists, secularists, and humanists do the world no favors by insisting that all religions be criticized in precisely the same terms and to the same degree.

    Because I consider Islam to be especially belligerent and inimical to the norms of civil discourse, my views are often described as “racist” by my critics. It is said that I am suffering a terrible case of “Islamophobia.” Worse, I am spreading this disease to others and using a veneer of philosophical atheism and scientific skepticism to justify the political oppression, torture, and murder of innocent Muslims around the world. I am a “neo-con goon,” a “war monger,” and a friend to “fascists.” In other words, I have blood on my hands.

    [Continued in link above]


    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #1 - April 08, 2013, 06:46 PM

    I think Sam Harris views on profiling are very unfortunate.

    I think some of the rhetoric of his critics may have over reached though.






    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #2 - April 08, 2013, 06:52 PM

    There is NO excuse for Sam Harris' blatantly racist views on racial profiling:

    Quote
    We should profile Muslims, or anyone who looks like he or she could conceivably be Muslim, and we should be honest about it. And, again, I wouldn’t put someone who looks like me entirely outside the bull’s-eye (after all, what would Adam Gadahn look like if he cleaned himself up?) But there are people who do not stand a chance of being jihadists, and TSA screeners can know this at a glance.


    PZ Myers destroys it here.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #3 - April 08, 2013, 07:06 PM

    I am surprised and appalled by Harris’s simplistic thinking here—more so surprised. Intelligence in one area does not guarantee correctness in another I guess.   
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #4 - April 08, 2013, 07:12 PM

    If the critics were calling him an Islamophobe for his statements on profiling, they might have some kind of flimsy logic to fall back on. But they are not. It's nearly always without exception a lazy, sweeping criticism of high-profile "New Atheists" and their audacity for criticising Islam publicly.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #5 - April 08, 2013, 08:49 PM

    Yup. He may be wrong about profiling, but that doesn't make him wrong about everything. I'm currently about one quarter of the way through the article linked in the OP, and so far it's very level-headed and well-written. I've just reached this sentence, which I think is rather good.

    Quote
    The term “Islamophobia” is now being used as a kind of intellectual blood libel to protect intrinsically harmful ideas from criticism.


    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #6 - April 08, 2013, 08:53 PM

    Quote
    The term “Islamophobia” is now being used as a kind of intellectual blood libel to protect intrinsically harmful ideas from criticism.


    That's genius!
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #7 - April 08, 2013, 08:55 PM

    Just found another very good one. Afro

    Quote
    I hope it goes without saying that the Afghan girls who even now are risking their lives by merely learning to read would not be best compensated for their struggles by being handed copies of Chomsky’s books enumerating the sins of the West. 


    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #8 - April 08, 2013, 09:05 PM

    Quote
    but the doctrines and authorities in which they place their faith run the gamut from the quaint to the psychopathic. For instance, a dogmatic belief in the spiritual and ethical necessity of complete nonviolence lies at the very core of Jainism, whereas an equally dogmatic commitment to using violence to defend one’s faith, both from within and without, is similarly central to the doctrine of Islam. These beliefs, though held for identical reasons (faith) and in varying degrees by individual practitioners of these religions, could not be more different. And this difference has consequences in the real world. (Let that be the first barrier to entry into this conversation: If you will not concede this point, you will not understand anything I say about Islam. Unfortunately, many of my most voluble critics cannot clear this bar—and no amount of quotation from the Koran, the hadith, the ravings of modern Islamists, or from the plaints of their victims, makes a bit of difference.)
    .


    Well that summarises why I get a bad vibe fro him. But this isn't the first time. I read the article where he had to defend his pre-emtive strike comments. Now THAT really pissed me off and his rebuttle to his critics was as bad as this. Ooh Islam is special, so we've gotta nuke em, and if you don't agree, you simply don't understand".

    Quote
    justify the political oppression, torture, and murder of innocent Muslims around the world. I am a “neo-con goon,” a “war monger,” and a friend to “fascists.” In other words, I have blood on my hands

    He knows it, yeah. I've seen people defend his view on racial profiling to the death. I was reading the comments on "the friendly atheist" which is a site I love, however, people there are so blinded by his fame as an atheist that they couldn't even see that racial profiling is wrong. He is thee definition of an Islamophobe, even if that word didn't exist, it would be invented just for him. He targets Islam and he explains why, and his reasons are stupid. "Kill em first, 10's of millions may die, but that's the price". Genocidal Islamophobia, no regard for the facts of the people in Iran, no reference to a revolution, nope, just that we have to preemtively strike and 10 million is a potential number of collateral damage. I suddenly feel so sick.

    Anyway, it's a matter of time when this whole thing will blow over. I am noticing a very strong pattern of right wing crime reporting in the USA. I was watching a news video about 2 politicians that were shot dead by Nazis in America. Too much neo nazi, white crimes going on now and the proof will be in the pudding for Harris. Hopefully the flavour will be strong enough to wake him up, or at least some of his followers who live in their little bubbles.

    Um what is with that attack on Chomsky?

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #9 - April 08, 2013, 09:18 PM

    Umm, did you ever read what Harris himself actually wrote about nukes?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #10 - April 08, 2013, 09:22 PM

    Um what is with that attack on Chomsky?

    I think Chomsky drew first blood when he criticised "New Atheism" on the grounds of it being akin to religious militancy. He also seems to want to blame everything that is wrong with Islam on the Western world. Or something.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #11 - April 08, 2013, 09:38 PM

    Umm, did you ever read what Harris himself actually wrote about nukes?

    The quote repeated on that page? I read it about a million times yeah, last year, and horrified once again as I saw it this morning. I will be converted to Sam Harris on the day he advocates that everyone disarms their nukes rather than advocates preemtively striking random people. Am I alone in noticing he has a strange disregard for human life? He's so cold...

    Quote
    I think Chomsky drew first blood when he criticised "New Atheism" on the grounds of it being akin to religious militancy. He also seems to want to blame everything that is wrong with Islam on the Western world. Or something.

    Well one question that is always on my mind is what the hell "new" atheism is. But I guess now that the term is coined it's all we have to describe a certain group of people.
    Chomsky is boring to listen to but he is very smart and humane at the same time. His vibe is basically, if you don;t want it done to you, don't do it to anyone else. I borrowed a few of his books last year and the bulk of what I read was about exactly what the "new atheist" quote is, but not actually about them...it was anti government, all of it. His old quotes can be applied to many new ideas today. Eg. I remember a chapter about obedient students, the perfect type of citizens and so on, these are ideas regurgitated by writers like Naomi Wolf and they have nothing to do with West/Islam, but they can definitely be applied somehow. Wolf has also been criticized as an pro Islamist, but it's not like you can say something and then be like "wait but this doesn't apply to this and that group". (Well I just realised that is ironic considering it is what Harris is talking about in this very rebuttle, and the reason why he got attention).

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #12 - April 08, 2013, 09:43 PM

    We have a Bosnian Muslim lady on twitter who considers Chomsky to be a genocide denier over what happened in Yugoslavia.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #13 - April 08, 2013, 09:47 PM

    Well one question that is always on my mind is what the hell "new" atheism is. But I guess now that the term is coined it's all we have to describe a certain group of people.

    It means contemporary atheists who have an opinion. For some reason this is a new and unsettling thing to certain people.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #14 - April 08, 2013, 09:51 PM

    We discussed Hariss's comments on profiling at the the time

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=20639.0


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #15 - April 08, 2013, 09:54 PM

    The quote repeated on that page? I read it about a million times yeah, last year, and horrified once again as I saw it this morning. I will be converted to Sam Harris on the day he advocates that everyone disarms their nukes rather than advocates preemtively striking random people.

    Ok, now I'm curious. Would you please, for the edification of the obviously senile like myself, point out precisely where in that quote he advocates pre-emptive nuclear attacks on random people?

    I'd also be interested in hearing exactly what you find so horrific about that quote, in general. Also, what basis do you have for this?

    Genocidal Islamophobia, no regard for the facts of the people in Iran, no reference to a revolution, nope, just that we have to preemtively strike and 10 million is a potential number of collateral damage.


    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #16 - April 08, 2013, 10:07 PM

    The part where he says it's unthinkable, then adds "but" and just goes on as it the but makes his idea any more sane. Btw when I say random people, it's those who will get affected, who probably don't even know what is going on. It's not like 10 million Iranis want to nuke America or something. Oh then he does that thing where he puts himself in the shoes of the other side for a sec, and he recognises that what his view is will be seen as genocide. I would rather die than even be alive to see it about to happen. If he is talking game theory (since he mentions the cold war in the beginning), then it is probably something that wont happen, so then the fact that he draws it out, with a number given for the casualties is even more disturbing.

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #17 - April 08, 2013, 10:10 PM

    You seem to be completely overlooking the fact that he does not include Iran as a possible target, and in fact specifically excludes it. IOW, you seem to be having a massive emotional reaction based on your feelings about nukes rather than on what Harris actually wrote. Why dump that on him?

    He's thinking about a horrible scenario, in which millions of people are likely to die no matter what choice is made.. That alone doesn't make him a monster. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with considering the possiblity of such situations.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #18 - April 08, 2013, 10:43 PM

    Thinkers have been wrestling with dilemmas like this for centuries without being called monsters.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #19 - April 08, 2013, 10:46 PM

    Finking ain't wot it used to be.

    Sadly.
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #20 - April 08, 2013, 11:56 PM

    You seem to be completely overlooking the fact that he does not include Iran as a possible target, and in fact specifically excludes it. IOW, you seem to be having a massive emotional reaction based on your feelings about nukes rather than on what Harris actually wrote. Why dump that on him?

    He's thinking about a horrible scenario, in which millions of people are likely to die no matter what choice is made.. That alone doesn't make him a monster. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with considering the possiblity of such situations.

    I don't think I dump it on him, but this topic is him. Actually, some of the other thing he talks about in the link I didn't even know he said. This topic came up in class last year and I argued for disarmament back then as well and the class had nothing to do with Harris, just a moral dilemma in a politics class.. but the lecturer did explicitly mention Iran as an example and played devil's advocate.

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #21 - April 09, 2013, 12:06 AM

    I don't think I dump it on him, but this topic is him. Actually, some of the other thing he talks about in the link I didn't even know he said. This topic came up in class last year and I argued for disarmament back then as well and the class had nothing to do with Harris, just a moral dilemma in a politics class.. but the lecturer did explicitly mention Iran as an example and played devil's advocate.

    Harris is right wing Islamophobes ., the  worst of all All these Islmaophobes, They  don't want any Islamic nation having Atomic weapons . I say Iran should make many  such weapons and distribute among Shia Muslims..  Same thing Sunni  Islamic nations should do it..  Now they all can play thin Ind-Pak game that happened in 1999 ,,,,just 14 years back.,  

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CQbxi8T1Cc

      many of the cemb members were only 3 year old...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #22 - April 09, 2013, 12:25 AM

    I thought this article was great. On first visit to this thread, I saw some hate for Sam Harris. I wondered why until I saw his views on profiling. But I think he's spot on here about Islamophobia. It's something I observed myself how I feel Islamophobia is a perfect defense mechanism by muslims to place Islam beyond reproach.
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #23 - April 09, 2013, 12:44 AM

    Criticising his ideas isn't hate, its just taking issue with his views on some things.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #24 - April 09, 2013, 01:19 AM

    I don't think I dump it on him, but this topic is him.

    What I meant was you seem to be reacting to things he hasn't actually said.


    Quote
    Actually, some of the other thing he talks about in the link I didn't even know he said. This topic came up in class last year and I argued for disarmament back then as well and the class had nothing to do with Harris, just a moral dilemma in a politics class.. but the lecturer did explicitly mention Iran as an example and played devil's advocate.

    Disarmament is great in theory, if you can get every nutter to do it. The last bit is the tricky bit.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #25 - April 09, 2013, 01:21 AM

    I thought this article was great. On first visit to this thread, I saw some hate for Sam Harris. I wondered why until I saw his views on profiling. But I think he's spot on here about Islamophobia. It's something I observed myself how I feel Islamophobia is a perfect defense mechanism by muslims to place Islam beyond reproach.

    I think he defo put his foot in it with the profiling thing. OTOH, I don't think he's racist. He just didn't think that one through very well. The main problem with his idea, IMO, is not that it's unethical (arguably, it isn't) but that it would be ineffective.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #26 - April 09, 2013, 08:34 AM

    Don't forget to read Loons on this subject..

    Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens: New Atheists flirt with Islamophobia  by NATHAN LEAN at Loons

    Sam Harris and ‘New Atheists’ Upset that their Anti-Muslim Animus is Being Scrutinized by   Garibaldi At Loons

    and That Glenn Greenwald at guardian UK on  Sam Harris, the New Atheists, and anti-Muslim animus

    many fools in the west and millions of Muslims in the east don't know the difference between Islamophobia and Muslim Phobia .. Crust of the problem lies right there.. Most of these loonies    think criticizing faiths  and rubbish books of faith or even educating people on the history of faiths is equivalent to hyping the phobia in the public  against those who follow these silly faiths..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #27 - April 09, 2013, 08:58 AM

    Don't forget to read Loons on this subject..

    Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens: New Atheists flirt with Islamophobia  by NATHAN LEAN at Loons

    Sam Harris and ‘New Atheists’ Upset that their Anti-Muslim Animus is Being Scrutinized by   Garibaldi At Loons

    and That Glenn Greenwald at guardian UK on  Sam Harris, the New Atheists, and anti-Muslim animus

    Neither of those whiny douchebags have made any argument about how hating Islam is the equivalent to hating Muslims. They have no actual justification for that significant shift in subject. It's just click-bait. Accuse some high profile atheists of racism, quote a couple of mild tweets about them saying Islam is stupid, fill in the rest with hollow and slanderous rhetoric and fallacious extrapolation = profit from the traffic it generates.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Sam Harris On "Islamophobia" and Other Libels‏
     Reply #28 - April 09, 2013, 09:08 AM

    ............... Accuse some high profile atheists of racism, quote a couple of mild tweets about them saying Islam is stupid, fill in the rest with hollow and slanderous rhetoric and fallacious extrapolation = profit from the traffic it generates.

    Nooooooooooooo......  

    write books like "The Islamophobia Industry: How the Right Manufactures Fear of Muslims add  chapters in it on   foolish uneducated mindless unbelievers  like Dawkins,  Harris ,   Hitchens.......... Daniel Dennett...



    so they can sell it to millions of out of high school Muslim kids .. that is how you can make money.. I would also suggest to that  nathanlean to join Adnan Oktar of turkey to make more money through oil kingdom donations..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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