Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →
↑ ↓
CEMB → Forum → Life, The Universe & Everything → Religions and Gods → apostasy = treason

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts

New Britain
Today at 09:26 PM
Do humans have needed kno...
June 18, 2025, 09:24 PM
What music are you listen...
by zeca
June 17, 2025, 11:23 PM
Is Iran/Persia going to b...
by zeca
June 17, 2025, 10:20 PM
News From Syria
June 17, 2025, 05:58 PM
Muslim grooming gangs sti...
June 17, 2025, 10:47 AM
الحبيب من يشبه اكثر؟؟؟
by akay
June 14, 2025, 10:20 AM
Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
June 13, 2025, 06:51 AM
Lights on the way
by akay
June 12, 2025, 09:49 AM
ماذا يحدث هذه الايام؟؟؟.
by akay
June 02, 2025, 10:25 AM
What happens in these day...
June 02, 2025, 09:27 AM
What's happened to the fo...
June 01, 2025, 10:43 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: apostasy = treason

 (Read 4080 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • apostasy = treason
     OP - March 22, 2013, 04:18 PM
    What do you make of this comparison commonly made by Muslims as a defence of apostasy rules in sharia?
  • apostasy = treason
     Reply #1 - March 22, 2013, 04:20 PM
    At best, a pseudo-utilitarian attempt to justify enforced ideological conformity? Why, what do you think?
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • apostasy = treason
     Reply #2 - March 22, 2013, 04:21 PM
    Is the death penalty for treason justified?
  • apostasy = treason
     Reply #3 - March 22, 2013, 04:51 PM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Coux2mS4tbg



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • apostasy = treason
     Reply #4 - March 22, 2013, 04:56 PM
    The "apostasy = treason" rhetoric begs the question: Is Islam intrinsically a political entity first and foremost? Muslims like to say that Islam is not inherently political but has been "misinterpreted" or used that way. Yet when they support the death penalty for apostasy (which, to be fair, not all Muslims do), it is implicit in that stance that Islam is firstly a political state, not a religion which does not necessarily have to be political or state-based, but a set of personal beliefs.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • apostasy = treason
     Reply #5 - March 22, 2013, 05:01 PM
    Even if we accept that Islam is a political entity, what modern countries prescribe the death penalty for moving to another country and gaining citizenship? This is a poor attempt at an analogy when there are no similarities between the two.
  • apostasy = treason
     Reply #6 - March 22, 2013, 05:23 PM
    Quote
    Even if we accept that Islam is a political entity, what modern countries prescribe the death penalty for moving to another country and gaining citizenship? This is a poor attempt at an analogy when there are no similarities between the two.


    Well North Korea still does that (if by modern state you mean state that still exists today).

    And if the muslims want to compare Islam to North Korea I'd say it's a fairly accurate analogy in my honest opinion.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • apostasy = treason
     Reply #7 - March 23, 2013, 04:39 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on March 22, 2013, 05:01 PM
    Even if we accept that Islam is a political entity, what modern countries prescribe the death penalty for moving to another country and gaining citizenship? This is a poor attempt at an analogy when there are no similarities between the two.

    What about an apostate living in a Muslim country who wishes to remain there? I think that's who Muslims are referring to because it's not like they can kill apostates who flee and live in non-Muslim, non-sharia'ah lands.
  • apostasy = treason
     Reply #8 - March 23, 2013, 05:48 AM
    what's up with yeezeeee's obsession with youtube?
  • apostasy = treason
     Reply #9 - March 23, 2013, 09:15 AM
    IMO, "apostasy = treason" implies that Muslims regard non-Muslims as enemies, and so if anyone changes sides they should be killed. It also means that they are at war with non-Muslims.

  • apostasy = treason
     Reply #10 - March 23, 2013, 01:55 PM
    One day a Muslim proudly told me that the US army used to kill the traitors, and that because apostasy is considered as a treason, death penalty is not a big deal. The problem with that is if Islam was divine you shouldn't be able to compare it with human laws... but Muslims don't understand that.
    If the abrahamic god judged himself according to his own moral standards, he'd go to hell.

    He's jealous, full of pride, he created evil, he doesn't heal sick people while he could, he's attacking people who are weaker than him, he follows his own desires and he commits murders all the time.
  • apostasy = treason
     Reply #11 - March 23, 2013, 01:57 PM
    often Muslims say that the death penalty only applies to apostates who also speak/fight against Islam. Is this true?
  • apostasy = treason
     Reply #12 - March 23, 2013, 02:09 PM
    ^ No. Publicly announcing that you've renounced Islam = death.
  • apostasy = treason
     Reply #13 - March 23, 2013, 02:12 PM
    Quote from: Lluvia on March 23, 2013, 01:55 PM
    One day a Muslim proudly told me that the US army used to kill the traitors, and that because apostasy is considered as a treason, death penalty is not a big deal. The problem with that is if Islam was divine you shouldn't be able to compare it with human laws... but Muslims don't understand that.

    The real problem with that is that Islam claims to be a peaceful religion and not an army or some kind of militant political entity.
  • apostasy = treason
     Reply #14 - March 23, 2013, 03:03 PM
    This is the sort of bullshit too many Muslims swallow with unbelievable ease. If you don't believe in our entity anymore you've committed an act of treason and you're prone to capital punishment. This is to say that you can be punished for things that are completely out of your control. Like whether you sincerely believe in God. You can't choose to believe in something.

    This is what Orwell meant with thought-crime. What occurs in your mind, when presented to challenging facts are not under the realm of your control. So, to punish you for how you process new knowledge is to punish you for "crimes" you are not responsible for.

    So for a Muslim society to apply this law of apostasy equals treason, one would've needed a round a clock supervising telescreen, not unlike those described in 1984. By then the Islamic vicar of Allah would supervise your every facial expression, every twitch of the eye and every turn of the lip. Maybe then would the sincerity of your belief be provable?
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • apostasy = treason
     Reply #15 - March 23, 2013, 03:04 PM
    True, Al-Alethia. I think Mulsims who say Islam isn't political hide the political aspect of Islam or just ignore it.
    If the abrahamic god judged himself according to his own moral standards, he'd go to hell.

    He's jealous, full of pride, he created evil, he doesn't heal sick people while he could, he's attacking people who are weaker than him, he follows his own desires and he commits murders all the time.
  • apostasy = treason
     Reply #16 - March 23, 2013, 03:35 PM

    Punishment for apostasy presupposes doxastic voluntarism.

    As far as I know we are not directly in control of our beliefs.

    You can tell that they have justified reason for their laws concerning apostasy.
  • apostasy = treason
     Reply #17 - May 27, 2013, 07:45 AM
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on March 23, 2013, 02:09 PM
    ^ No. Publicly announcing that you've renounced Islam = death.


    Why is that Hamza Tzortzis said that it is only punishable once you attack the state? He lied?

    By public announcement, are you implying that just by saying "I am an apostate", you will be punished?
  • apostasy = treason
     Reply #18 - May 27, 2013, 07:55 AM
    ^ In a proper shari'ah state, you should be but that doesn't really happen.

    There's at least two ahadith where Muhammad says that those who leave Islam must be killed and many ulema to this day subscribe to this view; I know for certain that that's the Salafi view and all four Sunni madhabs subscribe to some form of "give them 3 chances to revert and if they don't, kill them". Although one madhab -- I forget which one -- holds that female apostates are not to be killed but rather imprisoned until they revert. I don't about what the Shi'a believe. 

    Of course, that's not the *only* view held by Muslims, some (a small minority) say there's no punishment ever, most agree that apostates who encourage others to leave Islam or speak out against Islam must be punished. Physically fighting Muslims is obviously punishable by death, that goes without saying. 
  • apostasy = treason
     Reply #19 - May 27, 2013, 08:54 AM
    Bukhari Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=23839.0
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »