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 Topic: 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk

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  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     OP - February 06, 2013, 12:21 AM
    Well yesterday I had an argument with my mom and she started saying stuff like:

    " How could P.Mo [she actually said the full prophet thing] know what happens inside the womb?
    I told her that miscarriages happen, and since knowledge was spread verbally in that time, that is how P.Mo got his info. Plus his friend was a doctor.

    "Okay, then I'll give you that one, but how could P.Mo POSSIBLY know that there were two rivers/seas that never met?"

    I was wondering if one of you could debunk these suras, if/when you have time:

     He has set free the two seas meeting together.  There is a barrier between them.  They do not transgress.  (Quran, 55:19-20)
    He is the one who has set free the two kinds of water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter.  And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition.

    or better yet, if you can debunk this site : http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm  . I would really appreciate it. Thanks in advance !

  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #1 - February 06, 2013, 01:26 AM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAK6fQQALE4
  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #2 - February 06, 2013, 01:30 AM
    better explanation :
    http://captaindisguise.blogspot.ca/2012/02/sea-barrier-miracle-claim-debunked.html

    NOTE : You see how captain disguise and the other guy in the youtube video are debunking two different things.
    THis is because muslims claim a VARIETY of miracles just by looking at one verse, proving that it is vague, and depends on whatever intrepretation you want
  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #3 - February 06, 2013, 01:38 AM
    That “miracle” claim is completely ridiculous! What do they mean the waters don’t mix? Of course they mix. Where else is the fresh water going if it is not being mixed into the salt water? If we take it the way many Muslim apologists explain it, that there is an area of decreased salinity immediately after the river meets the sea, then this has nothing to do with the waters not mixing. It is exactly what you would expect to happen under the circumstances.  What is more, the whole “river and sea” explanation is only one of many possible interpretations of that verse, with some of the more traditional interpretations being completely absurd. Even if we take it to mean rivers meeting the sea,  the concept of an estuary is not a modern scientific discovery.
  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #4 - February 06, 2013, 01:47 AM
    Yeah but they make a big deal about stratification, which can be quite persistent under some circumstances. It's still nothing that couldn't easily have been observed oodles of times before Mohammed came along.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #5 - February 06, 2013, 01:49 AM
    Well, first off there is no intransgressible sea barrier. All water mixes with each other even if the bodies have different densities, temp, etc. Otherwise there would be an ever increasing fresh water boundary eating into all the oceans of the world.  

    Second, the verse isn't speaking about anything other than the observable phenomena that there is fresh water and there is salt water. Back in moe's day, society was well antiquated with fresh water situated further inland (aquifers which are even arguably mentioned in the quran, rivers alongside an encampment etc.) and as rain water from the sky vs. the sea water that surrounds all the continents. Case in point, arabia is surrounded by the red sea, the arabian sea, and the persian gulf (the read sea in particular, situated on the side of arabia that mohammad lived in, has one of the highest salt concentrations of any body of water on earth).

    What causes these two bodies to remain separate oh Profit?! "An impassible magical barrier made by god!"

    Or at least, that's my take on it. I don't speak Arabic and have never been a musilm so my experience has been mostly through looking through Islamic apologetic websites.

    Here's a rather good article toohttp://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran.



  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #6 - February 06, 2013, 01:57 AM
    ^Exactly. You can't get away with calling the area of transition a "barrier." The two concepts are opposites.
  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #7 - February 06, 2013, 02:00 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 06, 2013, 01:47 AM
    Yeah but they make a big deal about stratification, which can be quite persistent under some circumstances. It's still nothing that couldn't easily have been observed oodles of times before Mohammed came along.


    All water mixes, that's a thermodynamic certainly even if it's only on the atomic level and doesn't 'appear' to mix after a small time frame. The verse is presented like an objective attribute which it's not even under extreme and highly selective circumstances.
  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #8 - February 06, 2013, 02:05 AM
    You don't have to convince me. Wink
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #9 - February 06, 2013, 03:22 AM
    We know you're a committed fellow heathen, Os Afro
  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #10 - February 06, 2013, 05:52 AM
    Suggest a simple experiment for our Muslim apologist friends.

    1. Take a bowl of water, add salt and blue food colouring.
    You now have salty water with a distinctive blue colour.
    2. To a glass of unsalted water, add red food colouring..
    You now have some fresh water with a distinctive red colour.
    3. Pour the glass of fresh water into the bowl of salt water. If the two waters don't mix, we should see a clear difference between the two. There should be some invisible barrier keeping the two bodies of coloured water separate. If this happens, I swear to your God I will give up my evil ways and convert to Islam on the spot
    Maliki yawm ul LULZ
  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #11 - February 06, 2013, 08:39 AM
    Professor Brian Cox builds sandcastles in the Namib Desert to explain why time travels in one direction. It is a result of a phenomenon called entropy; a law of physics that tells us any system tends towards disorder.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQSoaiubuA0

    http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/therm/entrop.html#e2
  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #12 - February 06, 2013, 10:58 AM
    Well I'd first go with what diem claimed first or others in this chat has posted but I'd also make the claim that this is a repeat of the story of the 1st chapter of genesis. (And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:2, And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. Gen 1:6-8)
    I'm not saying that this may be where this comes from but it definitely seems reasonable that he learned this chapter of genesis from Jews in Arabia and could be why that verse is in there.
    Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky who created the universe, and the vast majority will believe you.

    Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure.
    - George Carlin
  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #13 - February 06, 2013, 05:48 PM
    Quote
    6) The muslim apologist fails to consider similar verses in older texts namely the bible in

    Proverbs 8:29 "when he gave the sea its BOUNDARY, so the waters would not overstep his command"
    Jeremiah 5:22 "I made the sand a boundary for the sea, an everlasting BARRIER it cannot cross."
    http://captaindisguise.blogspot.ca/2012/02/sea-barrier-miracle-claim-debunked.html

    There is more..
    Psalm 104:9
    http://bible.cc/psalms/104-9.htm
    Job 38:10-11
    http://bible.cc/job/38-10.htm



  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #14 - February 06, 2013, 05:55 PM
    the diagram above forgot the 8 mountain goats

    “Then above the seventh heaven there is a river, between whose top and bottom is a distance like that between one heaven and another. Then above that there are eight  mountain goats. The distance between their hooves and their knees is like the distance between one heaven and the next. Then on their backs is the Throne, and the distance between the top and the bottom of the Throne is like the distance between one heaven and another. Then Allaah is above that, may He be blessed and exalted”
  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #15 - February 06, 2013, 06:00 PM
    Muhammed was explaining why despite obviously meeting in estuaries, rivers remain fresh, and seas remain salty.
    the obvious (but wrong) conclusion is that there must be some kind of barrier between them.

    muhammed was not aware of the miracle of gravity which prevents salt water from flowing uphill into rivers.
    Nor was he aware of the miracle of the water cycle in which water, but not salt, is evaporated up from the seas and returned to the rivers via condensating clouds.
  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #16 - February 12, 2013, 11:50 PM
    Quote from: RecRoom on February 06, 2013, 01:49 AM
    Well, first off there is no intransgressible sea barrier. All water mixes with each other even if the bodies have different densities, temp, etc. Otherwise there would be an ever increasing fresh water boundary eating into all the oceans of the world.  

    Second, the verse isn't speaking about anything other than the observable phenomena that there is fresh water and there is salt water. Back in moe's day, society was well antiquated with fresh water situated further inland (aquifers which are even arguably mentioned in the quran, rivers alongside an encampment etc.) and as rain water from the sky vs. the sea water that surrounds all the continents. Case in point, arabia is surrounded by the red sea, the arabian sea, and the persian gulf (the read sea in particular, situated on the side of arabia that mohammad lived in, has one of the highest salt concentrations of any body of water on earth).

    What causes these two bodies to remain separate oh Profit?! "An impassible magical barrier made by god!"

    Or at least, that's my take on it. I don't speak Arabic and have never been a musilm so my experience has been mostly through looking through Islamic apologetic websites.

    Here's a rather good article toohttp://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran.






    LOL!
  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #17 - February 12, 2013, 11:57 PM
    Quote from: Diem on February 06, 2013, 05:52 AM
    Suggest a simple experiment for our Muslim apologist friends.

    1. Take a bowl of water, add salt and blue food colouring.
    You now have salty water with a distinctive blue colour.
    2. To a glass of unsalted water, add red food colouring..
    You now have some fresh water with a distinctive red colour.
    3. Pour the glass of fresh water into the bowl of salt water. If the two waters don't mix, we should see a clear difference between the two. There should be some invisible barrier keeping the two bodies of coloured water separate. If this happens, I swear to your God I will give up my evil ways and convert to Islam on the spot

    Quote from: Diem on February 06, 2013, 05:52 AM

    I can just hear my mother: " Ohh, but he only meant it about 'THAT' particular river/sea, not all river and seas. LOL, this one is going to be a fun one. I just hope one day I can get my mother on my side. My dad has become a complete nutter though, ever since his mother died. I bet he is only doing it so that he can get into 'heaven' and see her again.

  • Re: 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #18 - November 26, 2013, 07:38 AM
    this is what i think
    Quote from: dr_sloth on February 06, 2013, 06:00 PM
    Muhammed was explaining why despite obviously meeting in estuaries, rivers remain fresh, and seas remain salty.
    the obvious (but wrong) conclusion is that there must be some kind of barrier between them.

    muhammed was not aware of the miracle of gravity which prevents salt water from flowing uphill into rivers.
    Nor was he aware of the miracle of the water cycle in which water, but not salt, is evaporated up from the seas and returned to the rivers via condensating clouds.


    Even if it is referring to pycnoclines, this is still a mundane and easily deduced phenomenon (that had already been observed even by fishermen). It can also be literally visible.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=19778.0


    [i responded to wrong thread. whoops]
  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #19 - November 26, 2013, 10:43 AM
    A good description of the phenomenon appears in Herodotus ( 5th century BCE ), where he discusses the ongoing creation of the Nile Delta from the silt transported by the river, and that the water remains sweet quite a way out to sea. From  memory, he states that this is widely known to the mariners of the day.

    The "barrier" referenced in this context is, quite clearly, land. The distinction between the sweet and bitter waters, and their separation at the time of creation goes back deep into Mesopotamian mythologies, and is reflected in the OT creation account.
  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #20 - November 26, 2013, 01:39 PM
    Quote
    [51-54] Had We willed, We would have raised up a separate Warner in each habitation. So, O Prophet, do not yield to the disbelievers, but wage a Jihad against them with this Qur'an.

    And it is He, Who has let loose the two seas, one palatable and sweet, the other bitter and salty, and there is a partition between them, which is an insurmountable barrier.(*)

    And it is He, Who created man from water: then from him He caused two kinds of kindred, by blood and by marriage: your Lord is All Powerful.


    Quote
    (*) This phenomenon has been perceived in many places in the sea and on the land that sweet water and bitter water has existed side by side. Turkish Admiral Syedi Ali Ra'is, in his book Mir 'at-al-Mamalik, written in the 16th century, has mentioned a place in the Persian Gulf, where springs of sweet waver exist under the bitter waters of the sea, where he could get drinking water for his fleet. The American Oil Company at first obtained water from the same springs in the Persian Gulf, before they dug up wells near Dhahran for supply of drinking water. Near Bahrain also there exist springs of sweet water at the sea bed from which people have been taking water until quite recently. Besides this apparent meaning which gives a rational proof of Allah's being the One and the only Lord of the universe, the verse contains a subtle suggestion as well: When Allah wills, He can raise up a righteous community from among a large wicked society just as He can cause springs of palatable and sweet water to gush out from under the salty waters of the sea.


    http://www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/25/index.html#sdfootnote68sym
  • 2 Rivers/sea "miracle". Please Debunk
     Reply #21 - November 26, 2013, 10:14 PM
    This was figured out by Aristotle in text centuries before Islam. Heck anyone living near an estuary could figure this out. Also the fact is it is wrong as these waters do mix. See: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4537.msg720492#msg720492 for information on diffusion.
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